Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

Have you attempted to brake on a race track and not down shift?

After a few corners... say bye bye brakes...

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

I don't want to start a post war.

But yeah, I have driven on tracks. I've raced some endurance events, 12h and 24h with 2h stints. Lots of fun.

Do some research. Engine braking does feel like you're braking harder (more noise, unstable car...). But real telemetry data will show otherwise. Look for Caroll Smith and Ross Bentley, both excellent instructors/writters.

Engine is for acceleration, brakes are to slow down. If the car brakes harder with engine braking, it only means you were not braking hard enough, or you need more rear bias (ona RWD car).

I'd rather toast my brakes than bust my engine anyways...

350Zenophile

iTrader: (20)

+1

My Road Race instructor at Sebring said to stay in whatever gear you're already in while braking. There was no need to drop a gear as the higher gear will actually engine brake more effectively for you and it prevents additional clutch wear.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Yes, your right. No need to row through all gears for braking. Do it only once, just to be in your power band for the corner exit.

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

Maybe its different with the 52lbs flywheel and clutch keeping the inertia going...

when you have a 16lbs racing flywheel and clutch with almost no Moment of Inertia when you take your foot off the throttle at a high RPM its like hitting the brakes...

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

I would be surprised if you could get anywhere close to 0.2g of deceleration on engine braking with your setup.

I get 0.1g decell with my Z on engine braking alone and up to 0.88g with the brakes.

Try it with a datalogger, you'll see right away if it's worth it.

Don't waste brain power and resources on controlling multiple down shifts while braking. You will get better results taking care of only the brake pedal and bliping once for one downshift.

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

im planning on getting one of those G-Tech meeters just for datalogging track runs...

Ill do some testing when I do...

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

It will feel weird at first.

Let us know what you find

EdgeOfSanity

iTrader: (1)

i thought the whole point of heel/toe braking is to stay in the proper gear for exiting a corner?

Rickdogg

iTrader: (234)

I do the traditional heel/toe however it seemed impossible at first. The Z's pedals are not placed close together like some cars

spf4000

Kolia is right, heel-toe is used to get in the right gear for accelerating out of the corner without upsetting the balance of the car when you're at the limit of the tires' adhesion. Engine braking is something you only use as a last ditch effort if your brake has completely given up and you can't slow down. Just about every racing book out there is in agreement regarding this.

350Zenophile

iTrader: (20)

I'm curious what it would be when combined. I'm guessing it would be less than brakes alone unless the brakes were overheated or otherwise impared.

The whole point of engine braking in a stock car at a driving school is to share the load with the brakes to make them last, not turn the fastest lap time. I guess that's why my instructor recommended it. I'll have to change my driving style when I get picked up next season for F1.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Just to make things clear, I'm not suggesting we should depress the clutch while braking. Just don't bother with doing multiple downshifts and just brake as hard as you can. You will be smoother and utlimately faster this way.

The .88g I get is not limited by brake power. It's limited by availlable tire grip. My car would not brake harder even with a BBK (not taking into account change in brake bias).

Please don't try to "save your brakes" by thrashing your engine !

As a side notes, brake fade can be minimised by proper braking technique. Braking harder for a shorter period of time will generate less heat than draging the brakes. This is how beginers often toast their brakes. By trying to be gentle on them, they actually make things worst !

Mmmh, we kind of drifted away from Heel and Toe here... Sorry...

spf4000

Exactly. Brake components are a lot cheaper than engine parts. Save the engine and let your brakes do the work. If you get brake fade, do a cool down lap.

leeboyNY

iTrader: (21)

I totally agree.. If you down shift without hill and toe or bliping during hard cornering, you will upset the balance and you will get the drift effect or just spin out...

JERZ33

why, exactly, is that a bad thing?

Anywho, it seems Im in the small crowd that rev-matches with my heal on the brake... I just find it alot easier using the front of my foot on the gas, this way it dont decel when switching my ball/toe to the gas pedal and disrupt the balance through a turn.

I remind those who are new to "spirited" driving that this technique is used just prior to the beginning of the turn in phase of a turn. Applying this technique too late will upset the balance of the vehicle which means your not using your tires/vehicle to its extreme limits. Watch some Pro SCCA races and listen for the shifts prior to the turn, that should give you some indication as to when you should attempt these theories...