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Recently did a quick comparo between the suspension set ups I have on "Liam" (my silver Z - so named by my dork best friend when he called it "Liam Nissan") and it's younger brother, the as-yet-unnamed-and-not-likely-to-be-named '08 Nismo I acquired a few weeks ago.
In that comparison (linked HERE), I alluded to some differences in the car in general, not just the suspension and I thought I might elaborate here.
My Usual Disclaimer: This is long and there really isn't any real substantive information here that DIY'ers can gain any knowledge from, just something that other Z shoppers might find interesting/useful. Read at your own discretion.
So, right after RE-DOING the suspension on my '03 Enthusiast (swapping out Bilstein for Koni and adding SBC camber adjustment), I ran across Nismo #1066 on a local cars-for-sale show lot (not a dealership, just a showplace for cars for sale).
I looked, I drove, I rationalized against it, went back to look at it, told myself and almost convinced myself I didn't want it... then gave in to my weaker self and bought it. I mean c'mon, I HAD to. Right? Right? C'mon, folks, help me out here....
Anyhow, now that I've had a few weeks of seat time indulging myself (see my other posts), I have a few comparative points that I think are worth pointing out for any potential shoppers. (Or just let me vent.... )
EXTERIOR
First thing that's pretty obvious is the aero bodywork and general appearance. (Y'think?)
The serving platter double rear wing is pretty "out there"...
...and then there's the front splitter (that has an appetite for pavement out of driveways)...
...and last and certainly not least, the horrendous rear bumper/diffuser...
All three components of which would find themselves right at home serving hor d'ouevres and cocktails at a black tie social event owing to their very horizontal surfaces. (Yeah, our other Niz has the huge wing out back too but at least the lower bodywork isn't quite so, uhhhh, omnipresent? )
Honestly though? Yeah, it's pretty obnoxious and far too boy-racer for the old man in me BUT... the aero stuff DOES seem to work at high speeds. The car feels a lot more hunkered down and stable. In that regard, the increase in actual downforce (versus slight lift accompanying standard bodywork) does seem to do its job admirably. (Same could be said about our Z34N)
Interesting side note: Nissan claims that the underbody aero is not just the undertray panels but that the Nismo exhaust (with the huge - and unncessarily large coffee can tips) was engineered to be a functioning part of the underbody airflow management.
Hmmmm.... OK look, I may be a wind bag but unfortunately I've no access to the nearby NASA wind tunnel so I'll have to take the Nissan Motorsports people at their word.
Couple all that with the 0.8 inch lower stance and the Yamaha engineered suspension (having a little more compliance than my Koni equipped Enthusiast), the car does have an overall better feel on the highway. I also don't know exactly what the Yamaha chassis isolator/dampers contribute to the ride quality, but all in all, the platform is quite solid and smooth, again, vis a vis my '03 Enthusiast. It's not as smooth as our 370 and nowhere near as fast in acceleration but it does work well.
Note: Do keep in mind that I am aware that a lot of this difference in road manners could be a function of suspension; HOWEVER, the '03 Enthusiast is sitting atop a warmed over suspension as well, so I'm calling them equal in that regard, my attempt at trying to isolate what gives the Nismo (both of the Nismos actually) a superior high speed road feel.
ENGINE/POWER DELIVERY
Here's where there's a very big difference between the '03 and the '08.
I'm not talking about actual power here, I'm talking about how said power is delivered.
Where my '03 has adequate torque and enough grunt to keep me happy, the stock, but deeper breathing HR motor in the Nismo has very different dynamics in back-to-back comparative driving.
In a specific set of "test" curves I run where I can hit the loud pedal in 4th gear on the DE-equipped '03 and pull myself out of trouble in a turn, the Nismo seems to want me to gear down to get the usable torque I need to let me break and snap the rear end back around to where it needs to be. This has me utterly perplexed because the cars share the same displacement, similar cam profiles (as well as all other internals all "similar".)
I won't really understand this until I can actually do a side by side study of their power/torque charts (do not have this for comparison) and compare the gearing specs (lazy to do so) to see why this is the status quo. I *think* (but not 100% sure) that the gearbox and final drive ratios are the same. So why the disparity? Well, when I figure it out, I'll let you know but it's just very puzzling to me.
I'm suspecting the tune of the Nismo is optimized at differing points due to the better breathing and configuration of, well, pretty much everything related to its state of tune. In any case, at this point in time, I give my '03 the advantage when it comes to throttle steer and sheer "get 'er done".
However, there are various other reasons this could be my impression and I will admit that it might be a case of where I still don't have adequate seat time in the Niz to say this is a final assessment. Seat time will tell.
CLUTCH/TRANSMISSION
This is something of a sore point with me. The clutch in the Nismo is FRIGHTFULLY LIGHT when compared to either my '03 or wife's Z34N. I'm not really sure what to make of this. I haven't driven a clutch so light under foot since the '70s when I drove my buddy's Toyota Celica. Suffice to say that it is very distracting and disconcerting to me.
Initially, the clutch was also grabbing way too high for my taste and causing me to have to rev unnecessarily to get the car moving from stop. I took care of that by adjusting the clutch pedal. It's a little better but am seriously considering installing a new clutch master (aftermarket, maybe a Tilton unit) and maybe changing the entire clutch (possibly to a SM flywheel, full face disk, HD street setup) because this "light pedal" condition is so disconcerting to me that I might be willing to make the swap.
What makes this particularly annoying is the fact that my '03 and my wife's '12 Niz have what I consider to be "perfect" clutch action. Heavy enough pedal with an engagement point about mid-way through the clutch stroke and very positive engagement from stop. Again, don't know why this car is so different.
I'll be taking it to my shop for a baselining (all new fluids, re-adjustment to the clutch, undercarriage inspection, undercarriage/suspension reference picture taking) and I'll see what Rob makes of it.
In all fairness however, I should note that once moving and particularly in hard driving involving all three pedals going at the same time (heel-toe, you know the drill....), the clutch ACTION is fine. As a matter of fact, the car, as equipped with the CD009 tranny standard is much smoother and allows for faster, cleaner shifting in the hills than the gronky-3rd-gear CD001 in my '03 that I make do with.
Given that trade-off, I'll probably wait to make changes to the clutch but will always be in the back of my mind to do so.
OTHER STUFF
Well, besides the red centers of the seats and the Nismo tach, there really isn't a lot of interior difference to really talk about between my '03 and '08.
The previous owner did add a subwoofer with amp and new touch-HU. Differing from my '03 though is that the sub is a trunk mounted enclosure whereas I installed a free-air sub in the stock Bose location (where none existed prior) and buried all 5 channels of amplification in the well of the stock sub enclosure. Totally stealth.
Hate to say it but my '03's mid-level sound system sounds better.
SO, IN "CONCLUSION" (Well, we all know this will never end with me)
Is the Nismo a superior car?
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... well, there are aspects of it that truly are superior:
- The aforementioned high speed stability and firmness of the chassis at all times - possibly attributed to the welded body seams and Yamaha chassis isolators.
- A suspension system that is probably the best out-of-the-box (stock) performer I've ever owned (former winner in my book was a 320iS)
- Noise isolation that is almost as quiet and calm as our Z34N.
- Nice exhaust note
But (and there's always a "but")....
Is it worth what I paid for it?
And, is it a car I'd tell anyone shopping for a Z to hold out for?
Not really...
As I alluded to above, I don't really think it is any better a performer than my '03 Enthusiast with suspension.
To answer the question about worth honestly, well, it's probably NOT worth it... yet. Check back with me in 10-15 years when it still has under 30k on it and the fact that it's a "limited" production car, well, maybe....... juuuuust maybe. But I'm not concerned about value appreciation, rather just appreciate the car out in the hills. (But if I do any HPDE, it's definitely going to be in the Enthusiast. Hahahaha.)
But you know what? At the end of the day and despite all the seeming negatives I point out styling wise, performance wise, I still love the car.
As much as it's older and younger Z siblings in the house.
And that's all that matters, right?
Cheers,
Mic
Last edited by MicVelo; 03-19-2015 at 06:30 AM.
Reason: grammur and speling
When I drove a 07 nismo It felt like it had gobs of power down low but not as much as my revup up top. (just butt dynoing) and by downlow I mean anything under 4k where the car is at 95% of the time. (Intake, exhaust, TPs)
I wounder if the downshifting feeling you get is from wider tires. Looks like you got the g35 wheels on your 03. That should be a decent size tire jump. Takes more to break it loose.
Nice review. The wheels on the 03 look like Track edition. I have all the nismo z bits on my 05 convertible except i have the Track edition wheels and i dont have the brembos yet or seam welding. The stock DE motor has more torque than the HR motor. I wondered what the difference in feel was.
Regards, MicVelo: If you look closely at the Nismo's clutch pedal you'll see a spring about mid-way in the assembly. There is a fulcrum positioned to transition from a clutch return to a clutch pedal helper. Essentially, at the top of the pedal stroke when the springs in the pressure plate relax, this coil spring keeps the pedal firm against the pedal stop. As the pedal is depressed the spring's applied force relative to the pedal's pivot point shifts and a downward force is applied. This is a surprisingly strong spring and reduces clutch "pedal feel" relating to clutch engagement. Installing a RJM adjustable pedal will not only enable the adjustment of point of clutch engagement but in my '08 Z allowed for firming pedal resistance. IMO, this was a good thing.
Adjusting the clutch stroke at the master cylinder yoke/rod is possible but needs to be done with care. There is a recharging vent in the master cylinder which allows fluid to flow to the lines from the reservoir. An overly aggressive lengthening of the yolk on the rod will position the master cylinder's piston so as to cover the port. Fluid in the lines will eventually be depleted, the slave cylinder will starve for fluid and the pedal will begin to fail to return. Several years past, one of our clever members moved and welded the pivot to slightly reposition the spring's location, an effective means of addressing the somewhat soft pedal on the HR setup.
The photos in this recent thread show the spring, the fulcrum it's connected to and the yolk/rod:
If you put the two Z's side by side you might find the Nismo pulling away from your torquey Enthusiast somewhere around 5500 RPM. HR is an abbreviation for "High Rev", the motor makes good power all the way to 7500 revs. As Nill mentions, unsprung weight is a factor but if you can bring yourself to hold gears longer to take advantage of the HR you just might find yourself admiring that nice '03 in the mirror.
Great review!
I've owned my '04 for 10+ years now and have driven an '05-'06, '07-'08 as well as an '07 Nismo.
I never thought about upgrading from my '04 Touring after driving any of those models.
The CD009 transmission is much improved over the one in my '04 but I've never had any issues with mine so I never had it replaced.
The '05-'06's seemed a lot smoother across the entire powerband whereas the '07-'08 as well as the Nismo seemed to be more powerful only in the higher RPM range.
I couldn't tell a huge difference in suspension from my '04 and the other models until I got to higher speeds, the newer models especially the Nismo felt much more stable and connected to the road.
I don't particularly care for the interior upgrades the newer models have either.
I love the look of the Nismo though, I remember standing in awe the first time I saw one in person, you see so few of them on the road, I would like to own one just so I can own a piece of history.
Congrats on picking up a z33 Nismo!
Hey, thanks all for the comments and advice. Appreciate it a lot.
Timeltel, specific shout out for that great analysis of the clutch "issue" (and pointer to the clutch adjustment thread), that helps a LOT! As I mentioned, I adjusted the clutch rod out a couple of turns and it's better but still not perfect. Your caveat about blocking the reservoir port is duly noted!! That's the first time I'd heard a specific reason WHY rod adjustment could negatively affect the clutch system. Excellent!
NiLL, your comment about the tires is a good thought and will be trying out a couple things (driving alteration, not mechanical) to test that theory...higher entry speed, late brake, etc.) Just for the record, I'm running Track V.1s with STOCK 18" setup (225, 245).
Radiocrash, regards your use of the word "fanboy"....had to ROTFL on that. I don't "crush" on the marketing hyperbole associated with the Nismo "brand". I prefer to impart my honest criticism and while the Nismos (both of ours) are the SUPPOSED, ALLEGED zenith of the line (short of the GTR), it doesn't mean they are flawless and I think it's improper to even think that they're better than the Zs that people put their time, creativity and love into to make them THEIR personal cars. That's the reason I'll always love my Enthusiast because I personalized it for my own taste and use.
And thanks all for the use of the word "dedication". Much kinder than my wife's use of the words "obsession" and "fetish". Hahahahaha!
Cheers and thanks for making this forum so useful.
Great review!
I've owned my '04 for 10+ years now and have driven an '05-'06, '07-'08 as well as an '07 Nismo. I never thought about upgrading from my '04 Touring after driving any of those models.
This all the way. Great review OP, I wish more Z owners would take the time to appreciate the Z33 platform as a whole instead of fighting with each other over which is superior.
This all the way. Great review OP, I wish more Z owners would take the time to appreciate the Z33 platform as a whole instead of fighting with each other over which is superior.
I'm only upset I bought a Touring instead of a Track but oh well... I like leather seats.
Mic, I enjoyed reading (all three times) your review.
I have the 2003, and really like the torque from this engine/transmission (I did update to the CD009 transmission which, as you mention, is a big improvement).
I find your comment about the clutch pressure (“The clutch in the Nismo is FRIGHTFULLY LIGHT when compared to either my '03 or wife's Z34N.”) to be quite interesting. I say this because the clutch in my 2003 350z Performance model is light. I first noticed this when test driving several Enthusiast models (that had much heavier clutch resistance) before purchasing my Performance model. I’m not sure what to make of this, or if it even has any significance.
And… Did I notice some beginning wear on the driver’s side seat bolster in your interior shot of the NISMO Z?
Mic, I enjoyed reading (all three times) your review.
I have the 2003, and really like the torque from this engine/transmission (I did update to the CD009 transmission which, as you mention, is a big improvement).
I find your comment about the clutch pressure (“The clutch in the Nismo is FRIGHTFULLY LIGHT when compared to either my '03 or wife's Z34N.”) to be quite interesting. I say this because the clutch in my 2003 350z Performance model is light. I first noticed this when test driving several Enthusiast models (that had much heavier clutch resistance) before purchasing my Performance model. I’m not sure what to make of this, or if it even has any significance.
And… Did I notice some beginning wear on the driver’s side seat bolster in your interior shot of the NISMO Z?
--Spike
Good catch but no, the seat's not wearing but the edge covering does get a little deformed now and then. Weird but it's not a bother.
I've talked to Rob at Z Car Garage about the clutch issue and he says "they'll take care of me." I have no doubt. So I'm not sweating it at this point. I'll be hanging out there taking pics and stuff while they're working on the fluids and such so should be able to get a better perspective on what's going on.
Worst case, I'll take timeltel's advice and install the RJM clutch pedal setup he mentioned. That looks like a winner.
Naahhh, this car won't see the track just cuz I'm keeping it just for the novelty and one day, maybe an investment (or I'll give it to my kid on the condition she moves back to the Bay Area! Long story...)
The '03 *may* see some HPDE late this year. Been considering it but my schedule (another long story) is pretty full most weekends.
But if you've read my other posts about the Sunday runs and what not, you can be assured that the car is NOT a trailer queen nor destined to be. Took 'er out this morning and approached the entire run up the hill very differently and the results were good. Another report later on.
Mic
Last edited by MicVelo; 03-20-2015 at 12:16 PM.
Reason: spelin and grammur
Just a quick note on the car.... noticed that cranking to start was a little sluggish this morning but did start OK. Ran around town (stop-start) then took a run up the Hwy 9 hill to experiment with different driving approaches. Stopped once on the way up to let traffic get ahead and another time at the top.
Methinks, "Hmmmm, battery still seems 'dull'....guess I'll run over and get a battery for it."
Get back near home and make one final stop at the market a few blocks from home.
D-E-A-D.
Whooops.... and "Whew!! Good thing it didn't do this on the turnout up the hill!!"
Dropped a new battery in and alls good. Now going to just wait 'til it's in the shop next week and have 'em do a load test on it. But gauge shows it's charging so not too worried.
03-18-2015, 06:31 PM
'03 Enthusiast v. '08 Nismo - Personal Comparison
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"Stop talking, let's build it!" Har!