frosty

PETER - not "suggesting" anything. Searching for reliable information and comfort regarding the likely long term outcome of HUGE power increases and the effect on other links in the (drive) train.

Peter - what's your reply re the warranty on APS gear?
(See original post this thread)

FROZTY

APS

After reading your posts I felt you knew something more about the Z trans...........as to it's strength.................as this also was a concern of mine until I spoke to a number of guys in the US who are running FI on the 350 Z.

What I learnt from these discussions with the US guys was that the manual trans is holding up very well to a fair amount of abuse..............drag racing and the like.................though there have been a number of cars with some syncro problems..............not sure if this is a design fault or simply from owner abuse (very fast shifting between gears) you can damage any trans if you try hard enough.


APS has not given any consideration to the warranty of the TT system...............as we may not yet release the TT system in Australia............this decision is yet to be made and the final decision will be made by September (though I have commited to doing a TT for one Australian customer). In terms of product warranty for the APS TT system (for the US market) APS will offer a similar product warranty to other professional after market FI companies.

I can't make any other comment as of now regarding what products will or wont be sold in Australia.

Thanks

Peter

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

My comments on the warranty were from posts previously made by APS on this forum. Seems his answer has changed a bit, although I would assume that what I posted easrlier is similar to what other companies have for their FI warranties, but APS probabally wanted to let you know that theirs isnt different from the others. I think that type of warranty is acceptable granted that our car isnt designed for FI and anything could go wrong, though im sure APS have done the tests so this wont be the case.

You dont know if it will be sold here or not?

You've been handing out pricing etc?
Granted though you were pushed to give this information.

APS

Mate no final decision has yet been made to sell the TT system in Australia (though we have committed to one Z ownwer for a TT installation) it depends on many issues.............bottom line I doubt that many Z owners in OZ can afford the product..........and I don't mean any disrespect by that comment.

Peter

APS

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

I dont think its a matter of affording it, rather than is it worth it with all the competition out there.

Overall i'd say the average spending power of the Zed owners around here is rather high. One guy even bought his girlfriend a supercharged mini. This same person might be the one to send a few TT kits back when he moves to the US soon. Another guy had 2 Zeds in his garage, granted though only one was his, but a family member did own the other.

Off the top of my head:

All have bought a $66-70K 350z,
Several have bought Ti mufflers ~$3500 each
Alot, with more on the way, bought forged racing wheels with good rubber costing ~$6400 (+ another $2800 for those who like to have 2 spares )
One bought a custom $45,000 TT setup
DVD + Satelite Navigation ~couple grand
Numerous people buying coilovers ~$3000 and sways ~$800

With most doing combinations of the above and this is just from a few zed owners, im sure others out there are also spending big on their babies.

APS

Well thanks for that information...........greatly appreciated...........food for thought.
Regards

Peter

apsilon

I think the price of the car alone here should indicate buyers with an above average disposable income.

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely, In stock form(which most arent) we're not even $10k off the price for buying x2 WRXs. Not that I need all that junk metal in my garage though.

provo

I have been making enquiries about the vortech supercharger kit [which is now available in Oz through CAPA in SA (www.capa.com.au), and can be fitted in Melbourne at Dynomotive (www.dynomotive.com.au)] since discussing the relative merits of TT v's SC with a colleague.

This kit can be fitted at dynomotive, including and engineer's certificate with some change out of $12,000 ($8,800 for the kit, c.$1760 for installation, $990 for the engineer's certificate).

I'm told that this kit gives about 320kW at the flywheel at 8 psi, but possibly a bit less torque than the TT. CAPA obviously believes there is a market for this kit, and that we can afford it (I know I certainly can!)

It's interesting that Peter is now mentioning his reservations. When I told Mark at Dynomotive I was considering the APS TT, he said that the APS TT kit would probably not be available in Oz - this was the first time I'd heard this and I didn't place much stock in his statement - maybe he's in the know - he said they'd had some input in an APS TT installation.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers,

Neil

provo

Should change my sig...

Future Mod's:
Possible APS TT
Possible APS Unichip
Probable Vortech SC

??????

Z350Lover

iTrader: (2)

APS:

I think Murray has got a point.... if a person can afford a zed, he can most likely be able to pay up to 12000 for a TT kit if they want it done... just like all of us here enjoying mods here and you can see quite a lot of us have already spent tones of money which has already exceeded the turbo kit itself on the car... so I guess there will be some potential customers to you here in australia and of course the market here is no way near as huge as the US market though... Probably that's what concerned you the most, and if I were you, I would have done the same thing seriously! Just the cost/earning calculation to most of the business men...

cheers,

richie

KY350

Peter - it would be a real pity if APS does not offer its TT in Oz. I realise that volume of sales in Aust would be flyshit compared to the US.

Current TT systems for the Z appear to be the $35-45K set up from Nizpro. I doubt they will ever get to double figure sales of TT systems at those prices.

It appears that APS has judged the Aussie market best by only offering a bolt on solution that leaves the internals untouched. If you cannot sell a reasonable number of systems at the prices you previously estimated, then I'm affraid no vendor will have any success with TT sales in Aust. I hope that is not the case.

Also, isn't the APS TT a universal system, designed to fit the RHD US spec cars and LHD Aust spec cars? If that is the case, then there would not be any further R&D costs for Aussie cars, making selling of the TT here a no brainer. Please correct me if I am wrong as it is difficult to fully appreciate the intricasies of running a business like yours, as an outsider.

DavidM

Hey Peter,
Can you clarify/explain something. I was just pondering the TT specs for the 350Z. The APS TT car runs 0.7bar pressure ... correct? I'm wondering how can a 3.5L engine running 0.7bar produce (around) 400kW at the crank? That is about 2x what the stock car manages (and for that you would need 2x the air as well as fuel at lest). Afterall, a 911 TT, which runs 1.2bar on a 3.6L engine can manage 'only' 309kW. Something just does not add up for me (or I just don't undrtand this). From what I gather 0.7bar should produce (around) extra 40% of power ... that 'should' put the TT Zed at around 290kW at the crank (and more like 215kW on your dyno). So what am I missing here? I'm not disputing your claim at all ... just trying to understand it.

I think Murray has got a point.... if a person can afford a zed, he can most likely be able to pay up to 12000 for a TT kit if they want it done.

I don't know ... I'm more with Peter on this. How many people in Aus would pay $12k on top of 350Z. Let's put it this way, I probably would not ... I'd rather sell the Zed, and buy a different car for extra $40k instead. So just because you can afford it, does not mean that you are willing to sink that much money into the car and at the same time void the waranty and (in a way) loose the money that you put into it on a resale.

I'm no expert at selling modifyed cars, but from what I hear, the price of a 2nd-hand car is set by the OME model, and not by the mods that you have on it. They do not increase the price of the car by much. I know that if I wanted a 2nd hand Zed, and could get one for (let's say) $50k, then I certainly would not pay $60k for one that is modifyed ... no matter how much. I would pay maybe extra $3k at most if it had a lot of mods that I'm interested in (that includes a turbo).

Then again, as I mentioned before, I'm no expert at this and am just looking at it just from my own perspective. I'm sure that some people think otherwise.

Z350Lover

iTrader: (2)

David.... don't get me wrong.... what I am saying is that people who bought zed will most likely to have 12000 for the mods, but as for the TT, it is up to personal test... I don't think I will put one on my car at this stage because I think I might just stick with N/A mods...

You are totally correct on the second hand market!!! I had plenty of experiences on that!
To be honest, I was actually thinking about changing my zed to a R34 GTR previous weekend.... had my extra money ready with me on Saturday, but sadly the GTR that I wanted to get was sold (silver only with 6000km).... and what is left were 3 modified GTRs available in melbourne which I don't want to buy at all when I see those cars' conditions. Also.... I know the second hand market quite well, and thre is NO value whatsoever to the modified cars unless you meet someone who appreciate the things you have done to the car.... spent heaps of money on the m3 than on my zed and i had a pretty hard time selling it... for all my modified cars, I needed to put everything back to stock to be able to sell (same applied to my s'charged 318is before the m3), otherwise I would never be able to sell those cars....

Guess how much they offered to trade my zed wih a GTR?! 53K for EVERYTHING that I have on my car (less than 1.5 year with 14K km on the clock)..... and if I get rid of all the parts listed in my signature panel, they will only give me 47K max. for the stock track zed.... that's what I had expected before I walked into the dealer (Gran Tourismo Auto), guess many of you guys would not believe how low trade price on the zed, right?!

cheers,

richie

KY350

Richie a dealer will rape you when ot comes to trading in the Z. He wants to sell it for 20% higher than he buys it from you to make it worth his while. Yuo're better off selling privately to get higher prices, but we all knew that allready.

APS

No doubt that's correct................though many finance cars...........and for many owners to find another 15K out of their pocket for a TT installation...............is a big ask or not?

Peter

APS

Z350Lover

iTrader: (2)

KY350:

I know.... but the truth is.... it is really hard to sell the car with the market value privately! There are many choices out there and how do you make a person to choose your car instead of others? It took me as long as 6 months to sell the 318is after I got the m3 and right now.... there are more than 35+ zeds out there, some people price it as low as 55K for the track version and right now, you can drive away with a brand new zed as low as 64K (or even lower)... the 2nd hand market is quite competible and if the seller is after selling the car quick, the only way to do so is to lower the price! To be honest, I got the '97 m3 for 88K and drove the car for 3 years with mods, and sold it for 55K privately last year (took me 2 months with that price, market price was 60K to 65K)...

Probably there is always some lucks involved when come to selling cars?! And I dont have much lucks in that area IMO!

cheers,

richie

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Originally posted by DavidM

Can you clarify/explain something. I was just pondering the TT specs for the 350Z. The APS TT car runs 0.7bar pressure ... correct? I'm wondering how can a 3.5L engine running 0.7bar produce (around) 400kW at the crank? That is about 2x what the stock car manages (and for that you would need 2x the air as well as fuel at lest). Afterall, a 911 TT, which runs 1.2bar on a 3.6L engine can manage 'only' 309kW. Something just does not add up for me (or I just don't undrtand this). From what I gather 0.7bar should produce (around) extra 40% of power ... that 'should' put the TT Zed at around 290kW at the crank (and more like 215kW on your dyno). So what am I missing here? I'm not disputing your claim at all ... just trying to understand it.

The new 911 TT uses 0.8 bar to get to 309kW@fly.

From what I know there would be alot of factors coming into this like exhaust restrictiveness(APS TT has big exhaust with No Cats), turbo flow characteristics, boxer vs V6, 10.3:1 compression vs ??, Revs - APS peak power at 6312rpm vs Porsche 6000rpm, Permanent 4WD vs RWD = drive train losses etc i.e. A wrx on the dyno makes less power on a dyno than an equal power RWD car.

I don't know ... I'm more with Peter on this. How many people in Aus would pay $12k on top of 350Z. Let's put it this way, I probably would not ... I'd rather sell the Zed, and buy a different car for extra $40k instead. So just because you can afford it, does not mean that you are willing to sink that much money into the car and at the same time void the waranty and (in a way) loose the money that you put into it on a resale.

I wasnt saying we thought it was worth it or would buy it. I was saying that there were alot of other things which go into deciding to get a TT of which price is only one part and that we could 'afford' it(in response to Peters comment), which you must be able to if you could sell the 350z and buy a car worth an additional 40k. Some other things to consider are Warranty, Reliablility(engine, drivetrain etc), Insurance, Price, Other offerings etc

I'm no expert at selling modifyed cars, but from what I hear, the price of a 2nd-hand car is set by the OME model, and not by the mods that you have on it. They do not increase the price of the car by much. I know that if I wanted a 2nd hand Zed, and could get one for (let's say) $50k, then I certainly would not pay $60k for one that is modifyed ... no matter how much. I would pay maybe extra $3k at most if it had a lot of mods that I'm interested in (that includes a turbo).

This is correct, actually you might have to sell the car for less if you can't find an enthusiest to buy as normal people are not concerned with mods and in some cases look at them as a symbol for someone who has trashed a car. You would be better off removing the TT system and selling the car stock and the TT seperate from the car as most do with their other mods.

APS

G'day Neil, thanks for your post and there are many issues to consider if we are to release the TT product in Australia........one of the many issues is the emission compliance (ADR 79/00) if we can't prove/meet this engine test then we won't release the TT system in Australia............it's simply not worth the commercial risk....................and this is only one of the many issues APS needs to consider prior to product release.If you want any other info feel welcome to pm me.

On the other issue no other person other than APS engineering staff have had any input to the Z TT system, Mark from dynamotive may have confused you by mistake........he has been involved with APS on another TT project............not in any way related to the Z project.

Thanks

Peter

Nathan

If it will pass CARB (California Air Resources Board) it will pass the ADR Emission test.