nissansource

iTrader: (10)

we need that adapter copied im too busy to do the work myself you ill paypal you cash to go to a machiniest and have them done up....

atlsupdawg#2

Ahhhh Damn!!! You know what did? I started the measurement from the 1" mark on the ruler and of course it ended at 3" and that's what I wrote down. Sorry about that..Glad you caught that. Man, had we been ordering stuff I'd have definetly screwed that up.

Thanks for the homework J

atlsupdawg#2

Oh Yeah, forgot to mention fellas, check out www.emachineshop.com
They have a free download program to design parts that I've played around with at work when I was bored. Pretty cool AND it'll give you a price quote on the piece you want machined.

kbiz

E-machineshop is a rip off! They have very high set up fees and most of their machining costs are much higher than I can get locally. I downloaded their little program about a year ago or so... they won't give you any type of quote or anything until you download and actually start using their software. I like the software idea though, pretty easy.

The bracket is going to be a simple machining job...

I'm getting the feeling from some people that perhaps not everyone understands that ALL Big Brake Kits use custom brackets to mount "Universal Fit Calipers"... If it's not OEM it will have brackets! Even if the kit is supposed to be OEM replacement or fitment or whatever... if it's aftermarket, it will have a bracket. Other than that one weird torque member kit.

kbiz

and, of course, here's the reason why you can't simply grab any caliper and rotor combo and expect to maintain proper bias:



That's why we should copy combos that have been tested and proven to work...

I'm thinking of a 13" and a 14" Front kits first... 13" that fit under the stock 17" wheels and 14" for folks with the big wheels. Wilwoods are great callipers that have been used for years in racing and are carried by a ton of distributors which has brought the price way down... Also keep in mind there are a lot of BBKs that are Wilwood calipers with the BBK makers name on them.

nissansource

iTrader: (10)

Willwood are great for the track and the street

atlsupdawg#2

Is there a difference between lug mounted and radial mounted calipers other than how they are, uhhh, mounted? In mean what's the purpose of one over the other??

kbiz

As far as I know... the radial mounts "Can" be more rigid, provided you build a beefier bracket. It also depends on how much room you have to work with. The radial mounting calipers give you the ability to build a bracket in close quarters and that may be the reason the rear Wilwood kits I've seen all have radial mounts. Also, the tab or ear mounted calipers are designed for certain standardized racing aplications... so they are simple "Bolt-ons." In racing set-ups it looks like the radial mount calipers are the universal and the tab mounts are more specific. I have seen the dynalites tabs broken before which is one of the reasons I'm thinking of going with the superlites and above... that and those are the calipers chosen for the majority of the Wilwood BBKs for the Z. Again, in an effort to avoid reinventing the whole BBK. The majority of the Wilwood calipers available are the tabbed mounts and the bracket I'll be getting soon is for a tab mounted caliper. Also, the Wilwood Forged Billet SL4 and SL6 with the tab mounts have the same mounting dimensions which would allow one bracket to work for both 4 piston and 6 piston front mounting.

I also think it depends on price and if a company is going to be using the same calipers on a bunch of applications, it might make it simpler(cheaper) to go with the radial mount. If you're making kits for 20 different cars and some of them don't have room for the tabbed mounting calipers, you'd choose to buy a ton of radial mounted calipers since you're having to machine brackets for each application anyway and buying all radial mount calipers would increase your order size and reduce your price.

Also keep in mind, the calipers have 4 versions each: left, right, leading and trailing... you can't mix them up.

kbiz

I just realized that the little metal rings in this image by the calipers are probably little spacers to make up the difference in center hole diameter of the wilwood rotor hat. This makes perfect sense and means that if the Z needs a hat with center hole diam of 2.68" and the closest hat has a center hole diam of 2.80" this ring will center the rotor and make it so we don't have to machine any rotor hats to make them fit.

kbiz

Looks like Wilwood makes two kits for the Z... maybe I can find the part#s for the rotor hats... If they have them for their kits they may be available individually. Just like the other kit makers, they're using the SL4s and SL6s.

KNS Brakes

iTrader: (2)

You guys are heading in the right direction - but you sure aren't engineers!!

The hole in the center of the rotor = hub centric. Very important to be correct as that is what keeps the rotors centered - not the lugs.

Your bracket needs to be stiff enough so that the caliper doesn't flop around. Don't learn that the hard way or someone is going to get injured and someone else is going to get sued.

Make sure your rotor has at least as much mass as the Brembo/Z rotor - otherwise you are wasting your time.

To keep bias the same as 'stock' you should try to maintain the following ratios.

Effective rotor radius x piston area (front) DIVIDED BY rotor radius x piston area (rear)
For fixed calipers use all the pistons - for floating multiply area by 2

So for example if you increase the front rotor effective radius and keep piston area the same then you need to either increase rear rotor effective radius OR piston area to maintain the front to rear ratio.

Figure out a brake line? Refer to the bracket comment.

There are plenty more things to consider - instead lets do some simple math

Decent Wilwood calipers - 4 pot = $350
Pads $75 (??)
Rotors - say 13 x 1.25 plain $125 (minimum)
Hats $80 (thats a lowball guess - custom = $$$$$$)
Rotor Hardware $20 (non floating grade 8 minimum)
Brackets $100 (if you are lucky)
Lines $100

Thats about 8-900 bucks for the most god awful cobbled up cheap parts brake kit I can imagine.
Non-floating plain cheap US rotors (racers consider them disposable)
Lowest compound Wilwood pads
Heavy steel brackets
I could go on

If you have a non-track Z/G in order you might consider in order......

The newer G brakes -they have thicker and bigger rotors with a decent 2 pot slider - paint it if you want bling. Make sure the MC is compatible or you'll have excessivce pedal travel. I believe they are the same as the M45 so parts may be reasonable.

Brembo takeoffs - hard to get but decent bling and performance (btw - the STi and EVO got a better version - sorry)

A decent kit using Wilwood components - Precision is one - there should be others

Stoptech or comparable (Brembo/AP or one of the uber expensive JDM kits) I won't argue which is better but it appears that Stoptech is the better VALUE - although I think they fleece you on replacement parts.

Notice all of my suggestions use parts that are either factory or proven racing parts - it's just not the place to get to risky.

I read the thread and decided to comment somewhat off the top of my head - but it's mostly right on information.
Yes I am a brake engineer.

Good luck - I'd sure like to see the results.

PS - Aren't the Japan Skyline parts bolt on as well - with the influx of parts that seems a decent place to look also.

kbiz

As I've stated a million times now... I'm not interested in designing or engineering a Brake Kit. I'm interested in REPRODUCING/COPYING/DUPLICATING or whatever other word will translate into: ME NOT REINVENTING THE BRAKE SYSTEM. I appreciate some feedback, but it sounds as if you didn't read the posts but went ahead and commented. I welcome anyone who chimes in and wants to throw something out there even if it’s off… it doesn’t mean that I’m going to be interested in installing biasing valves or the like.

Hub Centric is obvious and it's been commented on a bunch... did you notice the discussion on whether or not we should bore out the center hole on various rotor hats??? I don’t recall any discussion focusing on ignoring the hub and perfecting the lug mounts… This is the same issue as with wheel spacers.

Yes it’s important for the brackets to be stiff enough… in my opinion that’s a pretty obvious statement. In fact, I’ll even go so far as to say that I think many of the brackets I’ve seen on these kits are too compliant! But as I’ve mentioned several times already, I’ll be getting a set of brackets in the mail within the next few days and at that point I’ll be able to evaluate the strength of those brackets. But the brackets are pointless if I cannot assemble the individual parts for a significant savings over purchasing the kit outright. So until I’m convinced that there is no potential for savings in REPRODUCING a BBK, I’ll continue, and I welcome others to do the same, researching the various components required.

As far as your prices on parts… I’ve already located Wilwood Billet Superlite Calipers for under $200 and I’ve established that a lower price can be had for a bulk order of ten or more. And as I’ve stated, ad nauseum, the reason I’ve been looking at Wilwood Billet SL4s and SL6s is because of the success various Wilwood BBK makers have had using those EXACT calipers. Also, as posted before, Wilwood makes hats that specifically fit the Z as well as a BBK that was designed for the Z. The whole point of this discussion is that if BBK makers, including Wilwood, have designed 13” and 14” BBKs for the Z then if you follow their lead and duplicate their components then none of us have to be engineers…

The whole point that I’m trying to make is that you can calculate all you want but when you think you’ve got everything perfect, the reality is you’ve just begun. You will have to test your system and all those calculations have done is simply get you somewhat close to a “Balanced System.” I don’t want to HAVE TO test the system… simply duplicate. I have the formulas and I can do the calculations! But I know enough that I don’t want to go down that route.

I appreciate all the input, but statements like “You sure aren’t engineers” is unhelpful. I’m sure being a “Brake Engineer” makes you feel like this exercise is stupid, but a lot of people who have been checking this thing out do not. If you had read through the thread you’d see that I’ve been trying to keep everyone on topic… which is replication not reinvention.

BTW, I have a master’s degree in Mechanical Engineering and I work in Rapid Prototyping professionally. So I assure everyone who is reading this that the reason I’m am keeping things simple is purposeful. Again I thank everyone for their input and I just ask that everyone be respectful and constructive.

KNS Brakes

iTrader: (2)

I wasn't trying to be unhelpful.

So your benchmark might be the Arizona Z 6 pot/13" kit at 1395. If you can get the calipers at less than 400/pair thats a good start. What do the rotors/hats and hardware to fit the Z run? Then you just need pads and the bracket. I think the brackets are easier to make for a radial mount type - pretty much a simple block with the right spacing.

You may be able to save some money by getting plain rotors - un plated/slotted. I bet the price difference is pretty high.

Also, does that caliper accept other pads besides Wilwoods?

marcelz

iTrader: (18)

Good Idea, So,,,, UPUPUPUPUPUPUPUPUPUP

BlackSpec02

iTrader: (17)

This kit is still $1850 for front and rear each.. as it says on the site... thats $3700, which is right up there with all the other expensive kits.

Some shop was selling wilwood kits w/ 4 pot front and rear calipers a while back for 2750 and 6 pot front and 4 pot rear for 3500... i know keeptrying has that setup on his car.
My question is wouldnt that setup w/ the 4 pot front and rear mess up the brake bias? It looked like it was infact the same calipers all around... I don't know... something to think about...

Also, arizona z car sells a kit for <2200 bucks for front and rear?! Thats awesome, thats what you pay for just a front kit from most companies. Here is their site for you guys to check this out. http://www.arizonazcar.com/350zbrakes.html
I might end up going with that, it looks like a great set up... the rotor hats look kind of odd though, anyone know why they look so fat?

Anyone with this setup on their car?

kbiz

Yeah... I like that guy's site. Especially his FAQ section. I suspect he's a realy smart AZZZ!

The calipers are more available then the rotor hats... I've found the largest spread in price here. The bracket and the rotor hats are where the issue will be. Wilwood makes two rotor hats that will fit the Z without modification (For the fronts). One for a 13" rotor and one for a 14" rotor. I have not been able to secure pricing on these yet, mainly because of the weekend, but I suspect they may be more expensive than some of the other "Close" matches. When components are special order, they tend to be less price competitive. Everytime we add modifications such as machining we increase the complexity of putting together this kit and more importantly the price. There are several other hats that will fit with a single machining step... but I'd rather get a perfect fit out of the box... but we'll see.

I like the radial mounts better myself... but the tab/ear mount callipers are more available and cheaper... so far. The 3.5" mount is very standard and cars that see a lot of race action, get their calipers replaced quite often. This should be kept in mind for anyone out there checking ebay!! Please guys, I would urge you against buying used calipers. Even if they've been rebuilt, a toasted caliper could still be dangerous.

As for the rotors... they are expensive. I'm sure that's why most kit builders have their own rotors in the kits. Having rotors plated isn't cheap. I have plating capability, but even the surface area of these rotors would be enough to stretch my tanks and would end up costing me a bunch. Plus I don't do real CAD plating due to the serious hazards... There are cold treatments that could work... but fitment is first priority right now.

kbiz

Hopefully it's not the same 4pots front and back... I bet it's smaller pistons in the rear... Wilwood has 2 piston calipers too... but no one seems to be using them. Yeah, if you used the same calipers front and back AND the same rotor diam... you would be very wacked out! There's nothing suckier then heavy rear bias... unless you're a stunt driver without ABS.

A lot of 6 piston calipers actually have less piston area then 4 piston caliipers... the idea behind the 6 piston version has more to due with pad wear characteristics than clamping force. If I were designing from scratch a brake kit, I'd probably go with a 4 piston front caliper... But I do like the look of those fat 6's.

Arizona Z Car's kit looks good. I've checked them out several times. As for the hats... I'd guess they're made for them or maybe in house. They're probably made using similar dies for the different appllications or maybe they're machined from blanks. If you notice, all their Z cars have similar funky designs... their rotors look a little heavier than other sets I've seen... don't have the specs though. I don't see anything wrong with their set-up. If I were a business, the hat is the place I'd probably go with custom fabrication. If you make a decent number of them, you could same a chunk on cost. As for why the hats are so fat... I bet it's for bringing the offset back... as in making more room for those fat calipers and maybe even increasing the number of wheels that will clear the calipers. Or it could just be that they're using the same hats from a different application, machined from blanks, and they simply sit further back on the 350Z but don't give any additional clearence. I bet they'd tell ya if you asked them... I'd be interested in their reasoning... you might get the sales version of the story though.

Has anyone had luck, good or bad, with Arizona Z car kits??

BlackSpec02

iTrader: (17)

Yeah the reason I noticed and was concerned about their hats is because it looks like it might throw your offset off..... I wouldnt want my brake kit to push my wheels out... if it didnt clear that is where spacers would come into play...

As for the weights of their rotors I couldnt say, but they do claim that their kits saves 10lbs at each end. Do most kits save about this much or more or less? Saving the unsprung weight would be a big bonus for a BBK.

And that wilwood kit i was mentioning is here: https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....1&page=1&pp=20
I cant tell if it uses different calipers or the same.

atlsupdawg#2

Infantsam,
You provided a lot of good information in your post but yeah, I think the "engineering" comment was a bit of a slap in the face. I don't think we were out to pass ourselves off as engineers and definetly not trying to insult the intelligence of those that work in the field. I myself am an aircraft mechanic so I'm definetly game for fabricrating to save $$$. I also understand the seriousness of SAFETY as it relates to my hobby as well as my passengers that fly.

With that said, being a brake engineer I'm glad to see from your expert opinion that we are headed in the right direction. I understand that the purpose of this thread was not to reinvent the wheel, but hell with all the knowledge chiming in here could open doors for possibly fabricating ones own set-up. I for one have learned a lot and this thread has definetly involved a lot of thought.

Sooooo, where do we stand so far? I think the calipers we'd use are pretty much a given. Brackets, kbiz will be working on that. Are they radial mounts or lug mount brackets?? I guess the only thing we need a definitive answer on are the hats..

kbiz

Well, the only thing that would throw your wheel’s offset off would be the hat’s face thickness, other than caliper clearance that might require you to add a wheel spacer or get new wheels. I doubt that set-up would be an issue there… As for the weight, just about every brake kit you can buy will shed a bunch of weight… so that’s a good thing.
The calipers on that kit from Evolution looks like the old forged dynalites or dynapros that have been powder coated. I think they’re the old Dynapros because of the clip on the top; the new ones say 4 piston under the Wilwood. Also notice how in the description they state the fronts are forged but they simply say 4 piston calipers in the rear. They’re probably simple and smaller dynalites for the rears… hard to say. I like the Superlites a bit more because they’re a little beefier and I think they use a little bigger pad. Superlites are above the Dynalites and pros… but I don’t think you’d experience a difference in performance except maybe under some seriously hard core usage. Arizona Z car is using the Billet SL6R (Superlites) which is what I’d recommend if you have to have the 6 pistons… I’d probably go with 4 pistons.