DIY Assemble your own Big Brake Kits: Caliper Brackets (Custom)
12-07-2005, 08:26 PM
#101
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Not to make an argument, but I feel as though you haven’t been reading as closely as I’d expect for such a long post. I do appreciate your posts, but I don’t want to be misquoted…
Are you stating that Wilwood’s GT series hats and directional vain rotors are poor quality? If so, please tell me the inside scoop because all I’ve heard from people who have used these products in race vehicles season after season is that they are very good.
all I stated was a question related to some of the more simple brake upgrades; a response to discussions about brake bias. If you do something simple like changing brake pads and SS lines… wouldn't that alone affect bias to some degree? That’s all.
I didn’t talk about sizing pistons based on deflection… this is all I said:
These calipers are used on kits for a lot of large vehicles and sports cars but I need to get a hold of a Wilwood engineer to find out how well they can take the line pressure and how much deflection they can handle.
All I wanted to find out is what class of caliper these are due to their price range…
All I was stating was if you change your pads to ones with a higher coefficient of friction, you can produce more braking force… I was neither discussing nor interested in discussing pros and cons of various brake pads, thermal dynamics, etc.
I think you need to realize something fundamental. I am in no way planning on selling or fabricating anything for anyone. I am not trying to be a kit builder... I have a profession that is far more satisfying. If people want to do something I am doing, I will be posting my results and figures, etc. Anyone can do whatever they, as consenting adults, choose to do. If someone wants to know how to locate a machine shop or what questions to ask, I’ll gladly tell them. If someone wants to know where I found a price for something, that’s fine. If someone asks me to sell them a bracket I machined on one of my milling machines… not on your life. This thread is simply about "What if."
This thread is just an idea. I share your concern. Especially for folks that are not technically inclined and maybe don’t know how to replace calipers or flush a brake system. But knowledge is power and as much excitement as people may show for something they read… I absolutely guarantee you that the majority of people who are following this thread will in the end not do anything with the information here. Even if it comes that all the components come together and detailed plans for brackets are posted including boring tolerances and material requirements… it takes more than interest in the outcome of a forum thread to make you drive to a metal distributor or go to a machine shop with plans and a price quote. Nonetheless, this is a very interesting thread to myself and others even if no action takes place.
I also want to say that I do believe very truthfully that stoptech is one company that does test and actually engineer their products. I am also familiar with the company that manufactures their calipers and they are known for quality in automotive components. So I don’t want anyone to misconstrue any criticism I give out about “Kit builders” as being inclusive of stoptech…
Everyone keep the feedback and ideas flowing... even if you think it's a dumb idea, or dangerous or cost prohibitive... we can still "Discuss" it. That's what makes brainstorming fun... I like checking out this thread a lot more than when I'm searching for posts on dash rattles...
What chromium content will your rotors have? How resistant will they be to heat checking/cracking? What thickness of anodizing will be used on the hats? What will be your max acceptable runout spec on the rotor and hat assembly? Will the bolts on your caliper brackets have Dacromet coating?
ss lines are not going to increase your brake torque.
You talk in one of your posts about sizing the pistons based on caliper deflection...
These calipers are used on kits for a lot of large vehicles and sports cars but I need to get a hold of a Wilwood engineer to find out how well they can take the line pressure and how much deflection they can handle.
You also mention uprated coefficient of friction on the pads to be used.
How do you plan to deal with ABS, and control driver pedal effort to prevent premature ABS activation (all related to piston sizing and torque output at the wheel end)? Are all of your SS lines going to be bench-tested prior to shipping? At what pressure, and through what pressure cycle will you test them? How do you plan to attach your fittings on your lines? What are you going to tell these guys when they call you for tech service in three years...after you've sold your Z and moved on to something else? How much is it going to cost them at that time?
This thread is just an idea. I share your concern. Especially for folks that are not technically inclined and maybe don’t know how to replace calipers or flush a brake system. But knowledge is power and as much excitement as people may show for something they read… I absolutely guarantee you that the majority of people who are following this thread will in the end not do anything with the information here. Even if it comes that all the components come together and detailed plans for brackets are posted including boring tolerances and material requirements… it takes more than interest in the outcome of a forum thread to make you drive to a metal distributor or go to a machine shop with plans and a price quote. Nonetheless, this is a very interesting thread to myself and others even if no action takes place.
I also want to say that I do believe very truthfully that stoptech is one company that does test and actually engineer their products. I am also familiar with the company that manufactures their calipers and they are known for quality in automotive components. So I don’t want anyone to misconstrue any criticism I give out about “Kit builders” as being inclusive of stoptech…
Everyone keep the feedback and ideas flowing... even if you think it's a dumb idea, or dangerous or cost prohibitive... we can still "Discuss" it. That's what makes brainstorming fun... I like checking out this thread a lot more than when I'm searching for posts on dash rattles...
12-07-2005, 08:38 PM
#102
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Originally Posted by infantsam
kbiz - he shoulda read my post and the ensueing response(s) first - 
I learned my lesson - NEVER insult potential customers knowledge.
I'm watching - I'll jump in and help if I think I can add some actual value without screwing you guys up!
side note - I'm not sure I'd look at that bracket and think "Precision" but I've spoken with Darryl on numerous ocassions and I'd suspect it's an accurate part.
cheers buddy!
I learned my lesson - NEVER insult potential customers knowledge.
I'm watching - I'll jump in and help if I think I can add some actual value without screwing you guys up!
side note - I'm not sure I'd look at that bracket and think "Precision" but I've spoken with Darryl on numerous ocassions and I'd suspect it's an accurate part.
cheers buddy!
You’re always welcome to chime in… I would suspect that you would be very helpful to a lot of folks in need of brake parts and maybe even more… all I’ve been able to provide thus far are retail prices and I haven’t even wanted to get into brake pads… oh lord. I’m sure you’d be willing to help out some Zers with good info and prices on supplies, brakes or otherwise. And just for the record… I’m not suggesting that anyone buy any parts just yet in relation to this subject, but only if you were needing something in the meantime… heh… gotta be careful cuz I might be quoted later on.
As for the brackets…Yeah... I was trying to be a little cheeky but I might have been too subtle. The dimensions are dead nuts on and they are plated. When you hold them in your hand, however, you don’t think NASA…
12-07-2005, 09:04 PM
#103
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So just in case this thread has started getting a little muddled... I think we should try to stay in line with other successful Wilwood kits. As mentioned before, Wilwood FSL, SL4 and SL6 calipers along with a 13" or a 14" rotor... and I'm not implying that one should just mix and match, just narrowing things down to the kits available that use these components. I’m still comparing the SL4 and the FSL being that there’s a bit of a price difference.
I've been really busy over the weekend and the last few days... tomorrow I have to take my Z in because the driver’s seat is actually broken. I'm only 200 lbs...
but I'll be making a few calls and talking with a buddy of mine who has owned a race shop for almost 30 years... I'm gonna see what he thinks of things and see if he's going to give me a stern talking to. I don't know exactly when I'll be buying components for fitment but I definitely want to measure more than twice.
Does anyone know of any other brands, other than Wilwood, who manufacture a wide selection of rotors and hats? Let us know…
I've been really busy over the weekend and the last few days... tomorrow I have to take my Z in because the driver’s seat is actually broken. I'm only 200 lbs...
but I'll be making a few calls and talking with a buddy of mine who has owned a race shop for almost 30 years... I'm gonna see what he thinks of things and see if he's going to give me a stern talking to. I don't know exactly when I'll be buying components for fitment but I definitely want to measure more than twice. Does anyone know of any other brands, other than Wilwood, who manufacture a wide selection of rotors and hats? Let us know…
12-07-2005, 11:29 PM
#104
Some other suppliers of note
Outlaw for calipers, US Brake for rotors and (I think) hats, Coleman for rotors and hats. There are more - those are off the top of my head.
Here is a decent list www.raceindustry.com
Outlaw for calipers, US Brake for rotors and (I think) hats, Coleman for rotors and hats. There are more - those are off the top of my head.
Here is a decent list www.raceindustry.com
12-08-2005, 12:15 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by infantsam
Some other suppliers of note
Outlaw for calipers, US Brake for rotors and (I think) hats, Coleman for rotors and hats. There are more - those are off the top of my head.
Here is a decent list www.raceindustry.com
Outlaw for calipers, US Brake for rotors and (I think) hats, Coleman for rotors and hats. There are more - those are off the top of my head.
Here is a decent list www.raceindustry.com
12-08-2005, 12:24 AM
#106
No personal experience - sometimes the price difference between something like a Brembo and something like this really confuse me. They have been in business for quite some time. Only AOL has managed to rip off the world that well for that long
(well - them and GM but that may be ending soon, sorry it's 4AM)
(well - them and GM but that may be ending soon, sorry it's 4AM)
12-08-2005, 12:35 AM
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Speaking of... Apple is well on their way, lol. 80% market share of portable music players since the ipod hit shelves a couple years ago, thats nuts... and everytime it shows signs of decline, a new one is released.
On topic... I agree that stoptech makes good stuff, but yeah this is a brainstorming thread to see what other options are out there... I want a brake kit that feels good, stops better than stock, and doesnt fade at the track, looks are awesome, but if it does all that ,then I am sold. Shoot, based on all that if there isnt anyone else who can say that for under 2 grand I may end up with a front stoptech upgrade.
On topic... I agree that stoptech makes good stuff, but yeah this is a brainstorming thread to see what other options are out there... I want a brake kit that feels good, stops better than stock, and doesnt fade at the track, looks are awesome, but if it does all that ,then I am sold. Shoot, based on all that if there isnt anyone else who can say that for under 2 grand I may end up with a front stoptech upgrade.
12-08-2005, 04:16 AM
#108
Originally Posted by J Ritt
You guys are honestly scaring the Sh#t out of me with comments like this...
What you guys aren't accepting about those fancy brackets, calipers, brake lines, etc., is that they were designed by the top manufacturers using FEA by an engineering team that does this as their life's work. The components were built, tested, redesigned, retested for strength, durability, resistance to corrosion, heat cycling...the list goes on. Some companies are throwing together kits using the parts bin approach, and the result is those simple rectangular brackets that have been shown. For the companies designing complete systems like we do, an enormous amount of time, thought, money, and testing has gone into these kits.
Do you realize the environment that these parts are operating in? In harsh conditions you're looking at potential repeated exposure to 1000+ degrees Faranheit, massive amounts of torque consistently being applied to the parts, corrosive environmental effects such as road salt, brake fluid, etc. Don't you think it would be a good idea to analyze the stresses that these parts need to withstand?!?
A comment like this is terrifying to me...
Now don't you think if you "hit it with a grinder" that it could damage the structural integrity of the part?!?!?
The more people that chime in on this thread, the more misinformation and wayward thinking I see popping up...regarding brake torque, the simplicity to manufacture these components, the lack of understanding of the basic physics involved. Let me clear this up right now with what's being proposed... you will NOT decrease stopping distances significantly from stock (and most likely not at all). You will also most likely produce a brake kit that is inferior in terms of durability and performance to the stock components, including the stock base brakes. The amount of work that goes into an OEM brake system is huge. Yes, these will look snazzier.
So you would rather save yourself the $1000 and have your wife driving around on a brake system that hasn't been designed and tested properly? Do you think what is being done here is a novel idea? What do you think Brakeman, UUC, ECS, etc. have been doing for years? Don't you think that if there was a potential goldmine to be made that everyone and their brother would be putting out OEM-level brake kits?
Outside of the fact that you are going to have little to no support on these products after they are purchased, you guys have NO idea what is involved with the manufacture of quality parts. What chromium content will your rotors have? How resistant will they be to heat checking/cracking? What thickness of anodizing will be used on the hats? What will be your max acceptable runout spec on the rotor and hat assembly? Will the bolts on your caliper brackets have Dacromet coating? How will you decide on the proper torque specification to mount the bracket? The list of these types of details is endless...and my engineers would blow your mind with the level of thought that has gone into these issues...which is why every mom and pop shop isn't selling world class brake system. It is not easy to do, and it's only possible by people far more technically knowledgeable than anyone I've ever seen on these message forums, definitely including myself!
KBiz,
I understand what you are trying to do, and I salute you for your efforts. That said, you have some seriously fundamental misunderstandings on a lot of fronts. For example, ss lines are not going to increase your brake torque. They will decrease the amount of time it takes to do work. You talk in one of your posts about sizing the pistons based on caliper deflection...how exactly do you plan to measure deflection on the caliper you will spec for the kit, and how will you translate that info into your piston sizing decision? You also mention uprated coefficient of friction on the pads to be used. Do you realize that this number is dynamic depending on temperature, and that each pad compound has a torque curve related to temp? How do you plan to deal with ABS, and control driver pedal effort to prevent premature ABS activation (all related to piston sizing and torque output at the wheel end)? Are all of your SS lines going to be bench-tested prior to shipping? At what pressure, and through what pressure cycle will you test them? How do you plan to attach your fittings on your lines? What are you going to tell these guys when they call you for tech service in three years...after you've sold your Z and moved on to something else? How much is it going to cost them at that time?
Cheap is not always good, and there is some serious cost involved with answering these and many other questions. That's why the brake kits from the top manufacturers are $1700+. Also, I'm amazed that people do this stuff on a $30k car. I've seen people do some crazy stuff on $500 track ***** beaters, but on this car?!?!?!?
Again, choose to listen, or choose to ignore me...that's up to you. I just don't want people to think that you can go read the tech pages on our website and start churning out a technically competitive brake kit...it's just not possible. If we were talking plenum spacers, I wouldn't give a rat's you know what...but we're talking about a safety item here though, and this is coming from experience watching people go down this path repeatedly only to get burned. All of them start out with good intent and are trying to save a buck. I suggest thinking this situation through, and ask yourself whether it's worth saving some money in the short term. You will pay...yes, WILL pay in the long run...most likely more than it would have cost you to do it right in the first place. For those of you that do choose to ignore me, copy this thread into a Word document and put it somewhere safe. Pull it out in three years and see if I'm right...then don't get mad at me when you call for help and I tell you, "I told you so!" (which I would never actually do, but I'd be thinking it.
)
Ugh...this is giving me a headache. Just please be careful guys...
BTW, here is the testing article referred to in this thread: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm
What you guys aren't accepting about those fancy brackets, calipers, brake lines, etc., is that they were designed by the top manufacturers using FEA by an engineering team that does this as their life's work. The components were built, tested, redesigned, retested for strength, durability, resistance to corrosion, heat cycling...the list goes on. Some companies are throwing together kits using the parts bin approach, and the result is those simple rectangular brackets that have been shown. For the companies designing complete systems like we do, an enormous amount of time, thought, money, and testing has gone into these kits.
Do you realize the environment that these parts are operating in? In harsh conditions you're looking at potential repeated exposure to 1000+ degrees Faranheit, massive amounts of torque consistently being applied to the parts, corrosive environmental effects such as road salt, brake fluid, etc. Don't you think it would be a good idea to analyze the stresses that these parts need to withstand?!?
A comment like this is terrifying to me...
Now don't you think if you "hit it with a grinder" that it could damage the structural integrity of the part?!?!?
The more people that chime in on this thread, the more misinformation and wayward thinking I see popping up...regarding brake torque, the simplicity to manufacture these components, the lack of understanding of the basic physics involved. Let me clear this up right now with what's being proposed... you will NOT decrease stopping distances significantly from stock (and most likely not at all). You will also most likely produce a brake kit that is inferior in terms of durability and performance to the stock components, including the stock base brakes. The amount of work that goes into an OEM brake system is huge. Yes, these will look snazzier.
So you would rather save yourself the $1000 and have your wife driving around on a brake system that hasn't been designed and tested properly? Do you think what is being done here is a novel idea? What do you think Brakeman, UUC, ECS, etc. have been doing for years? Don't you think that if there was a potential goldmine to be made that everyone and their brother would be putting out OEM-level brake kits?
Outside of the fact that you are going to have little to no support on these products after they are purchased, you guys have NO idea what is involved with the manufacture of quality parts. What chromium content will your rotors have? How resistant will they be to heat checking/cracking? What thickness of anodizing will be used on the hats? What will be your max acceptable runout spec on the rotor and hat assembly? Will the bolts on your caliper brackets have Dacromet coating? How will you decide on the proper torque specification to mount the bracket? The list of these types of details is endless...and my engineers would blow your mind with the level of thought that has gone into these issues...which is why every mom and pop shop isn't selling world class brake system. It is not easy to do, and it's only possible by people far more technically knowledgeable than anyone I've ever seen on these message forums, definitely including myself!
KBiz,
I understand what you are trying to do, and I salute you for your efforts. That said, you have some seriously fundamental misunderstandings on a lot of fronts. For example, ss lines are not going to increase your brake torque. They will decrease the amount of time it takes to do work. You talk in one of your posts about sizing the pistons based on caliper deflection...how exactly do you plan to measure deflection on the caliper you will spec for the kit, and how will you translate that info into your piston sizing decision? You also mention uprated coefficient of friction on the pads to be used. Do you realize that this number is dynamic depending on temperature, and that each pad compound has a torque curve related to temp? How do you plan to deal with ABS, and control driver pedal effort to prevent premature ABS activation (all related to piston sizing and torque output at the wheel end)? Are all of your SS lines going to be bench-tested prior to shipping? At what pressure, and through what pressure cycle will you test them? How do you plan to attach your fittings on your lines? What are you going to tell these guys when they call you for tech service in three years...after you've sold your Z and moved on to something else? How much is it going to cost them at that time?
Cheap is not always good, and there is some serious cost involved with answering these and many other questions. That's why the brake kits from the top manufacturers are $1700+. Also, I'm amazed that people do this stuff on a $30k car. I've seen people do some crazy stuff on $500 track ***** beaters, but on this car?!?!?!?
Again, choose to listen, or choose to ignore me...that's up to you. I just don't want people to think that you can go read the tech pages on our website and start churning out a technically competitive brake kit...it's just not possible. If we were talking plenum spacers, I wouldn't give a rat's you know what...but we're talking about a safety item here though, and this is coming from experience watching people go down this path repeatedly only to get burned. All of them start out with good intent and are trying to save a buck. I suggest thinking this situation through, and ask yourself whether it's worth saving some money in the short term. You will pay...yes, WILL pay in the long run...most likely more than it would have cost you to do it right in the first place. For those of you that do choose to ignore me, copy this thread into a Word document and put it somewhere safe. Pull it out in three years and see if I'm right...then don't get mad at me when you call for help and I tell you, "I told you so!" (which I would never actually do, but I'd be thinking it.
)Ugh...this is giving me a headache. Just please be careful guys...
BTW, here is the testing article referred to in this thread: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm
Last edited by Havok_RLS2; 12-08-2005 at 04:38 AM.
12-08-2005, 04:54 AM
#109
I had pretty much decided on the Arizona Z car setup until this thread. I am sure that Stoptech makes a good product, but they are interested in profit like any other company. Take stock of what is being discussed here:
A brake system put together from off the shelf parts.
(Testing is already done by the manufacturer of the part, Wilwood calipers are already in use, much longer than any Stoptech product.)
Looks like we are basically using the parts that some BBK vendor has already put together. (More than one company is selling kits using the same parts already)
It looks like the only custom part will be a simple bracket with four holes.
(And if Wilwood makes a kit in Jan, the bracket should be availible already made)
So where is the issue? We can't put together brake parts because we haven't tested the corosion effect on the rotor hats? My wife might be driving the car? Mr. Stoptech, I would not allow my wife to drive any car with YOUR BBK or any other. Who do I call in three years for support? Good question. I can't call Nissan, out of warranty, pay out of pocket. Can't call Sony, they don't give any real support when the stuff is new. When I find a company that still supports the product three years from now, I am in shock. And if I got three years of service out of the BBK kit for THOUSANDS less, guess I could just put together another kit. Cheaper than buying StopTechs.
It reminds me of the heat pump situtation. Salesmen wants to sell me a Trane. (This is after I have done research, which states that the tech changes so rapidly, you should replace a heat pump every decade because of effeciency upgrades). He wants 10K installed, 10 year warranty. As I stated to him, I can buy 1 heat pump, have it installed, buy a spare heat pump, put it in the basement on the shelf, and use the other 6K to go to school to become a heating and air conditioning tech, so I can install it if it goes bad in the next ten years. Sometimes more money is just more money. I read a lot on StopTech's website about how superior they are. Example one:
"Balanced Brake Upgrades™ with optimum brake bias offer the shortest stopping distance with the best pedal feel"
Shortest? Period? Than who or what? I don't buy it. Show facts.
Best pedal feel? Who determined that? Talk about sales speak. Unproveable.
Example two:
"The stiffest aftermarket calipers with patented bridge result in better clamping under hard braking and less pad taper"
Where are the stiffness tests? I looked in the white papers, nothing there comparing StopTech to other brake systems. Patented bridge? So what. Means nothing. better clamping? Than what? less pad taper? Than who or what?
StopTech is probably a fine product. Don't know, haven't used them, and most likely never wiil based on price. But looking at the website, I see a bunch of superlatives that aren't backed up by anything, comparisions to nothing. Basically, written by a lawyer and an advertising guru.
If Arizona Z car had an parking brake drum, I would already have Wilwoods on my car.
Arizona Z car 4 wheel kit:
Front: $1395
332mm x 35mm curved vane directional rotors
6 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included, with ceramic pads.
Rear: $795
310mm x 21mm vented rotors
4 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included
Total price approx $2190.
Stoptech: (as quoted on the Zechhausen website)
Front: $1995
332 mm x 32 mm rotors
4 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Rear: $2295
328 mm x 28 mm rotors
2 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Total price approx $4290, or buy as a 4 wheel kit for $5 more.
Do the math.
$2100 less for the Arizona Z car BBK kit. I could buy two Arizona Z car BBK kits, and set one aside for spare parts. No wonder the StopTech rep is on here posting. Shoot, If I had that kind of profit to defend I would be too. Man, your baby on board could be killed if you put together that kit. Or I could miss a house payment or a trip to Vegas.
My two cents.
Keep up the brainstorming and I will help if needed or asked.
A brake system put together from off the shelf parts.
(Testing is already done by the manufacturer of the part, Wilwood calipers are already in use, much longer than any Stoptech product.)
Looks like we are basically using the parts that some BBK vendor has already put together. (More than one company is selling kits using the same parts already)
It looks like the only custom part will be a simple bracket with four holes.
(And if Wilwood makes a kit in Jan, the bracket should be availible already made)
So where is the issue? We can't put together brake parts because we haven't tested the corosion effect on the rotor hats? My wife might be driving the car? Mr. Stoptech, I would not allow my wife to drive any car with YOUR BBK or any other. Who do I call in three years for support? Good question. I can't call Nissan, out of warranty, pay out of pocket. Can't call Sony, they don't give any real support when the stuff is new. When I find a company that still supports the product three years from now, I am in shock. And if I got three years of service out of the BBK kit for THOUSANDS less, guess I could just put together another kit. Cheaper than buying StopTechs.
It reminds me of the heat pump situtation. Salesmen wants to sell me a Trane. (This is after I have done research, which states that the tech changes so rapidly, you should replace a heat pump every decade because of effeciency upgrades). He wants 10K installed, 10 year warranty. As I stated to him, I can buy 1 heat pump, have it installed, buy a spare heat pump, put it in the basement on the shelf, and use the other 6K to go to school to become a heating and air conditioning tech, so I can install it if it goes bad in the next ten years. Sometimes more money is just more money. I read a lot on StopTech's website about how superior they are. Example one:
"Balanced Brake Upgrades™ with optimum brake bias offer the shortest stopping distance with the best pedal feel"
Shortest? Period? Than who or what? I don't buy it. Show facts.
Best pedal feel? Who determined that? Talk about sales speak. Unproveable.
Example two:
"The stiffest aftermarket calipers with patented bridge result in better clamping under hard braking and less pad taper"
Where are the stiffness tests? I looked in the white papers, nothing there comparing StopTech to other brake systems. Patented bridge? So what. Means nothing. better clamping? Than what? less pad taper? Than who or what?
StopTech is probably a fine product. Don't know, haven't used them, and most likely never wiil based on price. But looking at the website, I see a bunch of superlatives that aren't backed up by anything, comparisions to nothing. Basically, written by a lawyer and an advertising guru.
If Arizona Z car had an parking brake drum, I would already have Wilwoods on my car.
Arizona Z car 4 wheel kit:
Front: $1395
332mm x 35mm curved vane directional rotors
6 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included, with ceramic pads.
Rear: $795
310mm x 21mm vented rotors
4 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included
Total price approx $2190.
Stoptech: (as quoted on the Zechhausen website)
Front: $1995
332 mm x 32 mm rotors
4 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Rear: $2295
328 mm x 28 mm rotors
2 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Total price approx $4290, or buy as a 4 wheel kit for $5 more.
Do the math.
$2100 less for the Arizona Z car BBK kit. I could buy two Arizona Z car BBK kits, and set one aside for spare parts. No wonder the StopTech rep is on here posting. Shoot, If I had that kind of profit to defend I would be too. Man, your baby on board could be killed if you put together that kit. Or I could miss a house payment or a trip to Vegas.
My two cents.
Keep up the brainstorming and I will help if needed or asked.
12-08-2005, 05:05 AM
#110
Originally Posted by gringott
I had pretty much decided on the Arizona Z car setup until this thread. I am sure that Stoptech makes a good product, but they are interested in profit like any other company. Take stock of what is being discussed here:
A brake system put together from off the shelf parts.
(Testing is already done by the manufacturer of the part, Wilwood calipers are already in use, much longer than any Stoptech product.)
Looks like we are basically using the parts that some BBK vendor has already put together. (More than one company is selling kits using the same parts already)
It looks like the only custom part will be a simple bracket with four holes.
(And if Wilwood makes a kit in Jan, the bracket should be availible already made)
So where is the issue? We can't put together brake parts because we haven't tested the corosion effect on the rotor hats? My wife might be driving the car? Mr. Stoptech, I would not allow my wife to drive any car with YOUR BBK or any other. Who do I call in three years for support? Good question. I can't call Nissan, out of warranty, pay out of pocket. Can't call Sony, they don't give any real support when the stuff is new. When I find a company that still supports the product three years from now, I am in shock. And if I got three years of service out of the BBK kit for THOUSANDS less, guess I could just put together another kit. Cheaper than buying StopTechs.
It reminds me of the heat pump situtation. Salesmen wants to sell me a Trane. (This is after I have done research, which states that the tech changes so rapidly, you should replace a heat pump every decade because of effeciency upgrades). He wants 10K installed, 10 year warranty. As I stated to him, I can buy 1 heat pump, have it installed, buy a spare heat pump, put it in the basement on the shelf, and use the other 6K to go to school to become a heating and air conditioning tech, so I can install it if it goes bad in the next ten years. Sometimes more money is just more money. I read a lot on StopTech's website about how superior they are. Example one:
"Balanced Brake Upgrades™ with optimum brake bias offer the shortest stopping distance with the best pedal feel"
Shortest? Period? Than who or what? I don't buy it. Show facts.
Best pedal feel? Who determined that? Talk about sales speak. Unproveable.
Example two:
"The stiffest aftermarket calipers with patented bridge result in better clamping under hard braking and less pad taper"
Where are the stiffness tests? I looked in the white papers, nothing there comparing StopTech to other brake systems. Patented bridge? So what. Means nothing. better clamping? Than what? less pad taper? Than who or what?
StopTech is probably a fine product. Don't know, haven't used them, and most likely never wiil based on price. But looking at the website, I see a bunch of superlatives that aren't backed up by anything, comparisions to nothing. Basically, written by a lawyer and an advertising guru.
If Arizona Z car had an parking brake drum, I would already have Wilwoods on my car.
Arizona Z car 4 wheel kit:
Front: $1395
332mm x 35mm curved vane directional rotors
6 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included, with ceramic pads.
Rear: $795
310mm x 21mm vented rotors
4 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included
Total price approx $2190.
Stoptech: (as quoted on the Zechhausen website)
Front: $1995
332 mm x 32 mm rotors
4 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Rear: $2295
328 mm x 28 mm rotors
2 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Total price approx $4290, or buy as a 4 wheel kit for $5 more.
Do the math.
$2100 less for the Arizona Z car BBK kit. I could buy two Arizona Z car BBK kits, and set one aside for spare parts. No wonder the StopTech rep is on here posting. Shoot, If I had that kind of profit to defend I would be too. Man, your baby on board could be killed if you put together that kit. Or I could miss a house payment or a trip to Vegas.
My two cents.
Keep up the brainstorming and I will help if needed or asked.
A brake system put together from off the shelf parts.
(Testing is already done by the manufacturer of the part, Wilwood calipers are already in use, much longer than any Stoptech product.)
Looks like we are basically using the parts that some BBK vendor has already put together. (More than one company is selling kits using the same parts already)
It looks like the only custom part will be a simple bracket with four holes.
(And if Wilwood makes a kit in Jan, the bracket should be availible already made)
So where is the issue? We can't put together brake parts because we haven't tested the corosion effect on the rotor hats? My wife might be driving the car? Mr. Stoptech, I would not allow my wife to drive any car with YOUR BBK or any other. Who do I call in three years for support? Good question. I can't call Nissan, out of warranty, pay out of pocket. Can't call Sony, they don't give any real support when the stuff is new. When I find a company that still supports the product three years from now, I am in shock. And if I got three years of service out of the BBK kit for THOUSANDS less, guess I could just put together another kit. Cheaper than buying StopTechs.
It reminds me of the heat pump situtation. Salesmen wants to sell me a Trane. (This is after I have done research, which states that the tech changes so rapidly, you should replace a heat pump every decade because of effeciency upgrades). He wants 10K installed, 10 year warranty. As I stated to him, I can buy 1 heat pump, have it installed, buy a spare heat pump, put it in the basement on the shelf, and use the other 6K to go to school to become a heating and air conditioning tech, so I can install it if it goes bad in the next ten years. Sometimes more money is just more money. I read a lot on StopTech's website about how superior they are. Example one:
"Balanced Brake Upgrades™ with optimum brake bias offer the shortest stopping distance with the best pedal feel"
Shortest? Period? Than who or what? I don't buy it. Show facts.
Best pedal feel? Who determined that? Talk about sales speak. Unproveable.
Example two:
"The stiffest aftermarket calipers with patented bridge result in better clamping under hard braking and less pad taper"
Where are the stiffness tests? I looked in the white papers, nothing there comparing StopTech to other brake systems. Patented bridge? So what. Means nothing. better clamping? Than what? less pad taper? Than who or what?
StopTech is probably a fine product. Don't know, haven't used them, and most likely never wiil based on price. But looking at the website, I see a bunch of superlatives that aren't backed up by anything, comparisions to nothing. Basically, written by a lawyer and an advertising guru.
If Arizona Z car had an parking brake drum, I would already have Wilwoods on my car.
Arizona Z car 4 wheel kit:
Front: $1395
332mm x 35mm curved vane directional rotors
6 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included, with ceramic pads.
Rear: $795
310mm x 21mm vented rotors
4 piston calipers, All hardware, brackets, fittings and ss brakelines included
Total price approx $2190.
Stoptech: (as quoted on the Zechhausen website)
Front: $1995
332 mm x 32 mm rotors
4 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Rear: $2295
328 mm x 28 mm rotors
2 piston calipers, ss brake lines, Axxis Ultimate street brake pads
Total price approx $4290, or buy as a 4 wheel kit for $5 more.
Do the math.
$2100 less for the Arizona Z car BBK kit. I could buy two Arizona Z car BBK kits, and set one aside for spare parts. No wonder the StopTech rep is on here posting. Shoot, If I had that kind of profit to defend I would be too. Man, your baby on board could be killed if you put together that kit. Or I could miss a house payment or a trip to Vegas.
My two cents.
Keep up the brainstorming and I will help if needed or asked.
^ +1000 ^
Thats my Dawg!
12-08-2005, 05:07 AM
#111
Kbiz, could you post a price breakdown of what you've got so far based on the different choices calipers, rotors & hats? Just to get an idea of cost without the bracket. Also, does Wilwood sell any of their brackets for different applications separately, and what price are those brackets for a price comparison? Thanks.
12-08-2005, 05:12 AM
#112
Originally Posted by infantsam
No personal experience - sometimes the price difference between something like a Brembo and something like this really confuse me. They have been in business for quite some time. Only AOL has managed to rip off the world that well for that long
(well - them and GM but that may be ending soon, sorry it's 4AM)
(well - them and GM but that may be ending soon, sorry it's 4AM)
Last edited by zillinois; 12-08-2005 at 05:17 AM.
12-08-2005, 08:26 AM
#113
Originally Posted by zillinois
The whole point of a company is to charge more than something is worth. Every company strives to do this forever. Nobody, including me, seems to want to pay for some company's 401k, health care benefits, lawyers or product liability insurance anymore when they buy a product. I don't think profit is going the way of the Dodo bird, but people are going to have to try harder than making a bracket and charging double or tripple what the parts are worth. I slept in this morning.
It's called "value added". With the BBKs, it seems that the companies take off the shelf hardware that basically meets the requirements of the automobile, have manufactured or manufacture any bracket that is needed special, test fit the brakes, called "product development", where they find out if the product actually fits, and if you have to cut the dust sheild etc. Then they test the product. Like StopTech did in the article referred to here. If you read the article, done some time ago, you will see that one 4 wheel kit they put together did not maintain bias correctly. The advantage of the approach that we are all interested in using is that someone else has done the componet selection already, and has tested it for proper use. We just decide to use the same componets, and manufacture what appears to be the only specialized product, the bracket. So the "value added" consists of componet selection and bracket. So we only have to determine if it is worth 2 to 3 thousand more dollars to go with a company like AP Brake, StopTech, Brembo, etc, or to shave 1 or 2 thousand off a kit from Arizona Z brake or Precision. We do not yet know how much a kit from Wilwood will be, and looking at the catalog, it lists the G35/350Z from 2004 on, and I don't understand that, as I thought the brake changes were not until 2006. I looked up a GTO kit, and front brakes were around 2K, so I would think that a "Wilwood" kit for our cars will be the same. So let us keep brainstorming, if we can bring in a kit for a real savings, the work will be worth it.
12-08-2005, 08:33 AM
#114
Originally Posted by gringott
It's called "value added". With the BBKs, it seems that the companies take off the shelf hardware that basically meets the requirements of the automobile, have manufactured or manufacture any bracket that is needed special, test fit the brakes, called "product development", where they find out if the product actually fits, and if you have to cut the dust sheild etc. Then they test the product. Like StopTech did in the article referred to here. If you read the article, done some time ago, you will see that one 4 wheel kit they put together did not maintain bias correctly. The advantage of the approach that we are all interested in using is that someone else has done the componet selection already, and has tested it for proper use. We just decide to use the same componets, and manufacture what appears to be the only specialized product, the bracket. So the "value added" consists of componet selection and bracket. So we only have to determine if it is worth 2 to 3 thousand more dollars to go with a company like AP Brake, StopTech, Brembo, etc, or to shave 1 or 2 thousand off a kit from Arizona Z brake or Precision. We do not yet know how much a kit from Wilwood will be, and looking at the catalog, it lists the G35/350Z from 2004 on, and I don't understand that, as I thought the brake changes were not until 2006. I looked up a GTO kit, and front brakes were around 2K, so I would think that a "Wilwood" kit for our cars will be the same. So let us keep brainstorming, if we can bring in a kit for a real savings, the work will be worth it.
12-08-2005, 08:45 AM
#115
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Havok,
First of all, I'm one of the founding members of this forum, and paid money to keep it afloat in 2002. I've had my preorder Z since mid '02, and I've made a lot of friends on this forum. Since joining StopTech a couple of years ago I've provided plenty of technical assistance to customers of ours, and to those who use other brake systems. Don't lecture me on my motivations based on poking your nose around on this board for the last couple of months. Yes I do have 'real' concerns. And yes, it scares me when people who know nothing provide their expert opinions on the internet, and others follow them blindly without having enough info to make an informed decision (that's not in reference to you either Kbiz...I'm just speaking in general terms).
In my previous posts on this thread I've provided plenty of technical info, including links to our own database of technical knowledge, and our testing procedures that anyone is free to replicate. I've also talked of my experience with customers trying to do exactly what is being discussed in this thread. So your statement that I'm not contributing anything is complete BS.
As for your dismissal...
You must be kidding me...why is my 'brainstorming' any less welcome than yours in this 'public' forum? 
Gringott,
I will not be dragged into this age-old debate about capitalism, monopoly, etc., so I'm not even going to address those topics. They've been hashed out endlessly on this forum and others. StopTech provides vastly more tech info about our products and capabilities than any other brake manufacturer. We sell our product at what we believe is a fair price, and we are less expensive than our competitors who sell comparable products. We also jump through hoops to help our customers, and customers with other systems that have problems. Your comment that our products 'aren't backed up by anything' is absurd. The brakes that we sell to our customers are identical in all manners to the products we sell to championship winning race teams, and we are striving to constantly make them better.
I've tried to provide you with some things to consider when undertaking a project such as this. Yes, I sell brakes, but I do have real concerns that people don't understand all of the factors involved. I've talked to more brake customers than anyone involved in this discussion, and I've watched plenty of them make mistakes along the way. If you reread my posts, they haven't been about pushing our product. They've been primarily about things to consider when making a decision such as this, and about my experience. If you don't value my experience, that's your decision. When someone compares our products to something else however, yes I will make it very clear if they are not comparing apples to apples (which is definitely true in this case).
Zillinois,
Stay in the business that you're in! After working in a service industry for 5 years, it was positively demoralizing to see the margins in this business...and costs keep going up, and up, and up...it's brutal. China is eating up resources at an obscene pace...aluminum, steel, iron...it's all skyrocketing!
BTW, there aren't many people in the aftermarket contributing to a 401k! I do get to call this nonsense work though. 
You putting Wilwoods on your shifter kart or something? 
First of all, I'm one of the founding members of this forum, and paid money to keep it afloat in 2002. I've had my preorder Z since mid '02, and I've made a lot of friends on this forum. Since joining StopTech a couple of years ago I've provided plenty of technical assistance to customers of ours, and to those who use other brake systems. Don't lecture me on my motivations based on poking your nose around on this board for the last couple of months. Yes I do have 'real' concerns. And yes, it scares me when people who know nothing provide their expert opinions on the internet, and others follow them blindly without having enough info to make an informed decision (that's not in reference to you either Kbiz...I'm just speaking in general terms).
In my previous posts on this thread I've provided plenty of technical info, including links to our own database of technical knowledge, and our testing procedures that anyone is free to replicate. I've also talked of my experience with customers trying to do exactly what is being discussed in this thread. So your statement that I'm not contributing anything is complete BS.
As for your dismissal...
Now, I can't speak for everyone else here but unless you have something useful to add to this endeavor I'd personally rather not listen to anything you have to say. I'm done with you now... Thanks.
Gringott,
I will not be dragged into this age-old debate about capitalism, monopoly, etc., so I'm not even going to address those topics. They've been hashed out endlessly on this forum and others. StopTech provides vastly more tech info about our products and capabilities than any other brake manufacturer. We sell our product at what we believe is a fair price, and we are less expensive than our competitors who sell comparable products. We also jump through hoops to help our customers, and customers with other systems that have problems. Your comment that our products 'aren't backed up by anything' is absurd. The brakes that we sell to our customers are identical in all manners to the products we sell to championship winning race teams, and we are striving to constantly make them better.
I've tried to provide you with some things to consider when undertaking a project such as this. Yes, I sell brakes, but I do have real concerns that people don't understand all of the factors involved. I've talked to more brake customers than anyone involved in this discussion, and I've watched plenty of them make mistakes along the way. If you reread my posts, they haven't been about pushing our product. They've been primarily about things to consider when making a decision such as this, and about my experience. If you don't value my experience, that's your decision. When someone compares our products to something else however, yes I will make it very clear if they are not comparing apples to apples (which is definitely true in this case).
Zillinois,
Stay in the business that you're in! After working in a service industry for 5 years, it was positively demoralizing to see the margins in this business...and costs keep going up, and up, and up...it's brutal. China is eating up resources at an obscene pace...aluminum, steel, iron...it's all skyrocketing!
BTW, there aren't many people in the aftermarket contributing to a 401k! I do get to call this nonsense work though. You putting Wilwoods on your shifter kart or something?
12-08-2005, 09:08 AM
#116
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It's called "value added". With the BBKs, it seems that the companies take off the shelf hardware that basically meets the requirements of the automobile, have manufactured or manufacture any bracket that is needed special, test fit the brakes, called "product development", where they find out if the product actually fits, and if you have to cut the dust sheild etc. Then they test the product. Like StopTech did in the article referred to here.
). It's one of our machinests hand-deburring a partially complete hat that just came off of one of our CNC mills(you can see the blank backing of aluminum bar stock) .
There's no value-added nonsense here. We far exceed stock capabilities, and we custom design and manufacture complete systems for each and every application. The hat shown in the picture will be used for one specific application only, and was designed with that intent. It was not designed to fit on multiple platforms. The same is true about our brackets, SS lines, calipers, etc. I wanted to make sure that is clear about what we do. Please don't lump us into a different category. Thanks.
Also, you would be stunned at the lack of testing in this industry...not just on brakes, but on everything! Many companies use their first retail customers as guinnea pigs. It's a shame, and it sucks for the customer.
That's why countries like Germany have TUV. If a company's product passes TUV, you can feel safe having that part on your car because it's been through rigorous 3rd party testing. They test every part for every platform though...it's nuts...and it costs thousands of dollars...every time. BTW, this is one of the many, many costs that you guys don't know about, or haven't even thought about. A top quality product costs huge money to make, develop, and sell across the world. That's why not everyone can do it. Most people don't get a true sense of what's involved until they're part of the process. I had no idea until I worked here. Like I said in my last post, I was an analyst/mgr. in my past life...definitely a different world than manufacturing.Hopefully that gives a little more insight into what manufacturing is all about?
Last edited by J Ritt; 12-08-2005 at 09:22 AM.
I'm just so happy to have been acknowledged by one of our "Founding Members".
12-08-2005, 09:27 AM
#118
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I'm just so happy to have been acknowledged by one of our "Founding Members". I'm honored. Really!
Seriously though, there were some people that put in a lot of time and money years ago to make sure this forum got to where it is today. You wouldn't even have a place to perform your little yes-man routine if they hadn't done so.
12-08-2005, 09:30 AM
#119
Just want to respond to what you have said, a little, with no hard feelings or "chip on my shoulder"
Gringott,
I will not be dragged into this age-old debate about capitalism, monopoly, etc., so I'm not even going to address those topics. They've been hashed out endlessly on this forum and others.
Not an arguement. If someone can sell something for profit, that is what makes the world go around. If I can get the same product or perhaps a different product that satisfies me for less money, that is the essence of capitalism. I don't think we even have a bone of contention about this.
StopTech provides vastly more tech info about our products and capabilities than any other brake manufacturer.
Statements like this bother me. I looked at your info. I am not impressed. I didn't look at all other manufacturers, but I think I can get the same amount or more information from them. Statements such as "vastly more" are what bothers me about your website.
We sell our product at what we believe is a fair price, and we are less expensive than our competitors who sell comparable products.
Debateable at best. (not the fair price part). Your prices are more or less the same as others.
We also jump through hoops to help our customers, and customers with other systems that have problems.
Could be true. Don't know. Nice if you do, but really doesn't matter.
Your comment that our products 'aren't backed up by anything' is absurd.
Reread please. Not your products, your superlative statements on your website such as best feel, etc. Don't change where I was coming from.
The brakes that we sell to our customers are identical in all manners to the products we sell to championship winning race teams, and we are striving to constantly make them better.
So is Wilwood. Same with the other companies, to my knowledge. So what?
I've tried to provide you with some things to consider when undertaking a project such as this. Yes, I sell brakes, but I do have real concerns that people don't understand all of the factors involved. I've talked to more brake customers than anyone involved in this discussion, and I've watched plenty of them make mistakes along the way. If you reread my posts, they haven't been about pushing our product.
Your posts seem to be fair and honest for the most part. And you have a touch of humor. I understand where you are coming from, I think, but anyone who has carefully read this thread would know that no one is contimplating just slapping some old junk yard parts together.
They've been primarily about things to consider when making a decision such as this, and about my experience. If you don't value my experience, that's your decision. When someone compares our products to something else however, yes I will make it very clear if they are not comparing apples to apples (which is definitely true in this case).
BBK to BBK. Show me some actual facts that prove your product is superior to Wilwood, AP, Brembo, etc. Not statements such as best feel, etc. Re read your web page. If you can prove a statement, you can use it. If Coke has less sugar than Pepsi, they can say so. If it is debatable, they will say "less sugar". Not say less then what. Your web page is full of those statements. That is, and continues to be, my beef with StopTech. Cut the hype, show exactly what you have, compared to others, and what they have. Then maybe I will read it without being cynical.
No one minds if you have some help to add. Trying to scare people, that I do mind. Let's face it, this forum is, in large part, about modifying a sports car to be even faster and more dangerous in the wrong hands. Bottom line. My wife drives a stock VW Passat. I take it to the dealer for service. I don't let her drive a highly modified TT monster that she cannot possibly know how to drive. No matter what brakes are on it. I don't let her shoot grenade launchers, machine guns, or anti-tank missles either.
Gringott,
I will not be dragged into this age-old debate about capitalism, monopoly, etc., so I'm not even going to address those topics. They've been hashed out endlessly on this forum and others.
Not an arguement. If someone can sell something for profit, that is what makes the world go around. If I can get the same product or perhaps a different product that satisfies me for less money, that is the essence of capitalism. I don't think we even have a bone of contention about this.
StopTech provides vastly more tech info about our products and capabilities than any other brake manufacturer.
Statements like this bother me. I looked at your info. I am not impressed. I didn't look at all other manufacturers, but I think I can get the same amount or more information from them. Statements such as "vastly more" are what bothers me about your website.
We sell our product at what we believe is a fair price, and we are less expensive than our competitors who sell comparable products.
Debateable at best. (not the fair price part). Your prices are more or less the same as others.
We also jump through hoops to help our customers, and customers with other systems that have problems.
Could be true. Don't know. Nice if you do, but really doesn't matter.
Your comment that our products 'aren't backed up by anything' is absurd.
Reread please. Not your products, your superlative statements on your website such as best feel, etc. Don't change where I was coming from.
The brakes that we sell to our customers are identical in all manners to the products we sell to championship winning race teams, and we are striving to constantly make them better.
So is Wilwood. Same with the other companies, to my knowledge. So what?
I've tried to provide you with some things to consider when undertaking a project such as this. Yes, I sell brakes, but I do have real concerns that people don't understand all of the factors involved. I've talked to more brake customers than anyone involved in this discussion, and I've watched plenty of them make mistakes along the way. If you reread my posts, they haven't been about pushing our product.
Your posts seem to be fair and honest for the most part. And you have a touch of humor. I understand where you are coming from, I think, but anyone who has carefully read this thread would know that no one is contimplating just slapping some old junk yard parts together.
They've been primarily about things to consider when making a decision such as this, and about my experience. If you don't value my experience, that's your decision. When someone compares our products to something else however, yes I will make it very clear if they are not comparing apples to apples (which is definitely true in this case).
BBK to BBK. Show me some actual facts that prove your product is superior to Wilwood, AP, Brembo, etc. Not statements such as best feel, etc. Re read your web page. If you can prove a statement, you can use it. If Coke has less sugar than Pepsi, they can say so. If it is debatable, they will say "less sugar". Not say less then what. Your web page is full of those statements. That is, and continues to be, my beef with StopTech. Cut the hype, show exactly what you have, compared to others, and what they have. Then maybe I will read it without being cynical.
No one minds if you have some help to add. Trying to scare people, that I do mind. Let's face it, this forum is, in large part, about modifying a sports car to be even faster and more dangerous in the wrong hands. Bottom line. My wife drives a stock VW Passat. I take it to the dealer for service. I don't let her drive a highly modified TT monster that she cannot possibly know how to drive. No matter what brakes are on it. I don't let her shoot grenade launchers, machine guns, or anti-tank missles either.
12-08-2005, 09:41 AM
#120
Jritt: I just saw your previous post with the picture, and I am sorry I used your company name in that paragraph. I ment the companies producing Wilwood kits, not the firms producing thier own products, such as StopTech, Brembo, etc. I should have made that clear.
I was using your test page as an example, where if you read it, the 4 wheel kit FAILED. In other words, it did not operate as you wanted it to. So all the high paid engineers, etc, did not match it right. Hopefully, you have worked that out, perhaps you have a link to the new test (done since that very old test) where the 4 wheel kit has now been adjusted or whatever so that it is not rear biased. Help me out here.
I was using your test page as an example, where if you read it, the 4 wheel kit FAILED. In other words, it did not operate as you wanted it to. So all the high paid engineers, etc, did not match it right. Hopefully, you have worked that out, perhaps you have a link to the new test (done since that very old test) where the 4 wheel kit has now been adjusted or whatever so that it is not rear biased. Help me out here.
