Suspension 101
08-31-2010, 09:00 AM
#181
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Jason thanks for an awesome write up! My couple questions that I still have left over are pretty summed up to this:
I'm going to get ebach springs, to drop the car like 1-1.4 inches or w/e it is.
The vendor has told me that most ppl buy a rear camber kit, and not replace anything in front, as rear wears out the most once you drop the car.
I'm just trying to figure out what exactly are the parts I need replaced. I don't plan to track this car, but I do have expensive tires and wouldn't want any crazy wear. There are kits for rear for like 180 bucks, but I'm wondering, can I get something cheaper? Like I've seen some vendors sell just the camber arms (adjustable) for like 50 bucks for pair. Help me out if possible, would cheaper ones mean shitty quality and not safe? I mean those vendors did have good feedback... So I'm kind of undecided.
I'm going to get ebach springs, to drop the car like 1-1.4 inches or w/e it is.
The vendor has told me that most ppl buy a rear camber kit, and not replace anything in front, as rear wears out the most once you drop the car.
I'm just trying to figure out what exactly are the parts I need replaced. I don't plan to track this car, but I do have expensive tires and wouldn't want any crazy wear. There are kits for rear for like 180 bucks, but I'm wondering, can I get something cheaper? Like I've seen some vendors sell just the camber arms (adjustable) for like 50 bucks for pair. Help me out if possible, would cheaper ones mean shitty quality and not safe? I mean those vendors did have good feedback... So I'm kind of undecided.
08-31-2010, 10:45 AM
#182
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Jason thanks for an awesome write up! My couple questions that I still have left over are pretty summed up to this:
I'm going to get ebach springs, to drop the car like 1-1.4 inches or w/e it is.
The vendor has told me that most ppl buy a rear camber kit, and not replace anything in front, as rear wears out the most once you drop the car.
I'm just trying to figure out what exactly are the parts I need replaced. I don't plan to track this car, but I do have expensive tires and wouldn't want any crazy wear. There are kits for rear for like 180 bucks, but I'm wondering, can I get something cheaper? Like I've seen some vendors sell just the camber arms (adjustable) for like 50 bucks for pair. Help me out if possible, would cheaper ones mean shitty quality and not safe? I mean those vendors did have good feedback... So I'm kind of undecided.
I'm going to get ebach springs, to drop the car like 1-1.4 inches or w/e it is.
The vendor has told me that most ppl buy a rear camber kit, and not replace anything in front, as rear wears out the most once you drop the car.
I'm just trying to figure out what exactly are the parts I need replaced. I don't plan to track this car, but I do have expensive tires and wouldn't want any crazy wear. There are kits for rear for like 180 bucks, but I'm wondering, can I get something cheaper? Like I've seen some vendors sell just the camber arms (adjustable) for like 50 bucks for pair. Help me out if possible, would cheaper ones mean shitty quality and not safe? I mean those vendors did have good feedback... So I'm kind of undecided.
with that drop, your front tires wil be at about -1.8 and your pricey tires will get inner camber wear.
because of that, i recommend the cheapest - yet still great quality kinetics front uppers to most people...see my post #7 or so that talks solely about them..
REAR:
you will need rear camber arms and rear toe bolts (spc or any 3 degree aftermarket). and dremel out the slot (doctors pill)
what you buy is up to you, ive seen people completely happy with ebay arms, etc...up to you...
i mention camber arms and difference in post #4
-J
08-31-2010, 11:01 AM
#183
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2) 2 independent mechanics looked at the suspension and did not find any obviously bent parts upon general inspection.. However looking at your post from a similar thread Jason, your reco is to take the suspension parts OFF the car for inspection - which is something I could do over the winter (takes shipment from SPL (2 weeks), a good 2-3 days in the shop, and a mechanic you can trust).
Key question here: what are the throw-away parts as you take out all struts and rods? Looking at the service manual, there seem to be A LOT (found at least 2 nuts and 3 pins per side according to FSU-8). Do you really replace them every time you play with your suspension Jason? Do you use originals from Nissan as a replacement?
Key question here: what are the throw-away parts as you take out all struts and rods? Looking at the service manual, there seem to be A LOT (found at least 2 nuts and 3 pins per side according to FSU-8). Do you really replace them every time you play with your suspension Jason? Do you use originals from Nissan as a replacement?
they mention tihs because most nuts are prevailing torque, i just inspect them and ensure good thread engagement and retorque back.
3) Meanwhile I've had the laser frame measurement performed on the car that indicated slight dislocation of the strut mounting spots looking from the top of the car (one side is shifted 8 mm and the other 4mm sideways towards the outside - limit is 3mm). Mechanic recommended to fix it by tightening the over-the-engine tower bar (as dislocation at the same places looking from UNDER the car is within limits).
There was one more aspect that is totally illogical out of the measurements which I've chosen to ignore (there are like close-to-none 350z's in this country, so mechanics suffer from a heavy case of no-cluism 
); but this one should be easy to verify: could you measure and post the distance from the ground level to a fixed part of the bottom of your car:
a) at the front (side of the front cross member)
b) in the front part of the cabin
c) in the rear part of the cabin
As you know the car better than I do, pick places that are firmly attached to the subframe and let me know what you used as reference (photo will help).
); but this one should be easy to verify: could you measure and post the distance from the ground level to a fixed part of the bottom of your car:a) at the front (side of the front cross member)
b) in the front part of the cabin
c) in the rear part of the cabin
As you know the car better than I do, pick places that are firmly attached to the subframe and let me know what you used as reference (photo will help).
About .966 if i remember right..
-J
Last edited by JasonZ-YA; 08-31-2010 at 11:02 AM.
09-01-2010, 09:33 PM
#184
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Hi Jason,
I'm looking to lower on Tokico D-spec combo, and I've read your original post 10 times. I'm hesitant to use the rear SPC toe bolts because I'm not sure if/how long they'll hold alignment. I don't quite understand your "SPC toe bolt fix #1, #2, in the section where you talk about how they slip and don't hold torque on the track. MY car is a DD on mostly hwy roads, and I drive like a grandma
. Do you think I'll have the same issues?
Here's what I can't decide between:
1) Leave the front alone, use camber arms with SPC/like toe bolts on the rear, and hope I'll stay aligned on the back, or...
2) Purchase the entire Kinetix front and rear kit, and hope the front Kinetix arms will hold up over time at least for as long as the OEM ones would. But, as you know the rear kinetix kit uses "adjustable toe arms" that replace the OEM radius rod to correct rear toe, and I understand this isn't the "right" way to correct toe, but don't quite understand why. Would this option cause any premature rear tire wear? And why do so many reputable aftermarket tuners, like Stilen, offer rear adjustable radius rods to correct rear toe if it isn't a good idea?
3) OR... should I just say screw it, and lower on Tein S-Tech which is supposed to be lesser drop (0.7"fr; 0.6"r), and hope I can get the rear aligned with the factory eccentric bolts/washers.
What would you suggest? Money isn't an issue, but I wanna do it right the first time and stay aligned for a while. Car is an '08.
Thanks
I'm looking to lower on Tokico D-spec combo, and I've read your original post 10 times. I'm hesitant to use the rear SPC toe bolts because I'm not sure if/how long they'll hold alignment. I don't quite understand your "SPC toe bolt fix #1, #2, in the section where you talk about how they slip and don't hold torque on the track. MY car is a DD on mostly hwy roads, and I drive like a grandma
. Do you think I'll have the same issues? Here's what I can't decide between:
1) Leave the front alone, use camber arms with SPC/like toe bolts on the rear, and hope I'll stay aligned on the back, or...
2) Purchase the entire Kinetix front and rear kit, and hope the front Kinetix arms will hold up over time at least for as long as the OEM ones would. But, as you know the rear kinetix kit uses "adjustable toe arms" that replace the OEM radius rod to correct rear toe, and I understand this isn't the "right" way to correct toe, but don't quite understand why. Would this option cause any premature rear tire wear? And why do so many reputable aftermarket tuners, like Stilen, offer rear adjustable radius rods to correct rear toe if it isn't a good idea?
3) OR... should I just say screw it, and lower on Tein S-Tech which is supposed to be lesser drop (0.7"fr; 0.6"r), and hope I can get the rear aligned with the factory eccentric bolts/washers.
What would you suggest? Money isn't an issue, but I wanna do it right the first time and stay aligned for a while. Car is an '08.
Thanks
Last edited by vlado_t; 09-01-2010 at 09:43 PM.
09-02-2010, 04:05 AM
#185
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Hi Jason,
I'm looking to lower on Tokico D-spec combo, and I've read your original post 10 times. I'm hesitant to use the rear SPC toe bolts because I'm not sure if/how long they'll hold alignment. I don't quite understand your "SPC toe bolt fix #1, #2, in the section where you talk about how they slip and don't hold torque on the track. MY car is a DD on mostly hwy roads, and I drive like a grandma . Do you think I'll have the same issues?
I'm looking to lower on Tokico D-spec combo, and I've read your original post 10 times. I'm hesitant to use the rear SPC toe bolts because I'm not sure if/how long they'll hold alignment. I don't quite understand your "SPC toe bolt fix #1, #2, in the section where you talk about how they slip and don't hold torque on the track. MY car is a DD on mostly hwy roads, and I drive like a grandma
. Do you think I'll have the same issues?I highly doubt you will have the same issues........a daily that is driven carefully will be fine. I suggest you mark the eccentric washers with a marker like I illustrate earlier in the thread and monitor them as you daily drive, hit pot holes, etc....
2) Purchase the entire Kinetix front and rear kit, and hope the front Kinetix arms will hold up over time at least for as long as the OEM ones would. But, as you know the rear kinetix kit uses "adjustable toe arms" that replace the OEM radius rod to correct rear toe, and I understand this isn't the "right" way to correct toe, but don't quite understand why. Would this option cause any premature rear tire wear? And why do so many reputable after market tuners, like Stilen, offer rear adjustable radius rods to correct rear toe if it isn't a good idea?
For a daily driven car, the change will never be felt and yes, would be fine, but its not how it should be done.... The reason for those arms is to correct bumpsteer and eliminate flex by removing the big oem rubber bushing thats in the factory arm.
i doubt you will be hitting 3" deflecting bumps on the road daily driving that would cause you to go from toe in to toe out on the road....unless you hit something....
its also not the correct location to adjust toe because the suspension is a DYNAMIC member of the car.........doing toe adjustment on an alignment rack is a STATIC image with the car sitting still........toe at that point may be in spec, but go hit a bump and then its not anymore.......its the wrong place to do it.
as for the aftermarket companies.......some do their homework and know the "racing" bump steer/bushing flex advantages but most just sell to the masses and advertise what sells.......i have prototype kinetics arms from 2003 that i can take a picture of that are the wrong dimensions, etc yet were made for the Z.....
they measured and oem arm with out the bushing in it so the width is all wrong.....Option 1 with front upper arms and springs you really want:
Front: kinetics arms - they are 239 shipped....thats not bad...
rear: camber arms and spc toe bolts (mark them and monitor)
watch your tires and monitor for wear and get alignments regularly.....
-J
Last edited by JasonZ-YA; 09-02-2010 at 04:06 AM.
09-08-2010, 08:34 AM
#187
I was wondering if you knew a method simliar to the string method to adjust toe. I've seen a few videos on youtube for a squared set up. But nothing really mentioned about staggered.
I'm just a little curious. I'm getting it aligned this friday. But I wanted something for future reference for in between changes and alignment dates.
I'm just a little curious. I'm getting it aligned this friday. But I wanted something for future reference for in between changes and alignment dates.
09-08-2010, 08:55 AM
#188
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I was wondering if you knew a method simliar to the string method to adjust toe. I've seen a few videos on youtube for a squared set up. But nothing really mentioned about staggered.
I'm just a little curious. I'm getting it aligned this friday. But I wanted something for future reference for in between changes and alignment dates.
I'm just a little curious. I'm getting it aligned this friday. But I wanted something for future reference for in between changes and alignment dates.
The only way to do so and do so accurately is with true coilovers and to ELIMINATE the spring bucket and get TOE ARMS,
BUT, you need toe arms that are left hand and right hand threaded. The opposing threads let a turn of the arm either expand out or retract IN, thus changing TOE? get it???
See the only company that makes some like that is BATTLE VERSION! and they are never in stock and super pricey.
So i made my own, like previously posted back on post# 21
I then got white address label paper, marked the corresponding toe degree measurements and then put heavy duty clear industrial tape over it to protect it from water.
I can make adjustments track side with the simple turn of a rod and my indicated marks!
Also, lock out washers at the end of course as you don't want the subframe mount point moving with eccentric washers. Review post 20 on lock out washers!
My arms are left and right and thread and are as fine tuned as the thread pitch i used on both sides. It equates to 1.5mm per 360 degree turn and .01 degree of toe.
I don't have a picture of the indicating marks, but I bought white address label paper:
I believe mine are only 3/4" wide ones but still, you get the idea....
Taped them on at the "lug" end, then i use a centered mark on the lug end with a MAGNETIC RULER and make my adjustment looking straight on.
SEE HERE:
-J
Last edited by JasonZ-YA; 09-08-2010 at 08:58 AM.
09-08-2010, 10:24 AM
#190
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Jason, I'll be in dallas this week beginning Thursday and coming back home Monday. I'm having a problem w/ my rear suspension.
When going over a bump... Actually a crack in the road does it as well. I get a crazy rattle coming from what I though was my hatch. Checked the hatch (via driving with hatch wide open) and still heard the noise. Had my girl drive while my 6ft3 asz layed down in the back of the hatch (all hatch pieces and spare were complete removed) and I heard the noise coming from under the trunk.
The noise is mostly on the passenger side but sometimes from both sides. It almost sounds metal to metal. Do you think it's my mounting seal bracket or rear bushings?
Regardless whom do you trust in the Dallas area that I could take my Z to, in order for them to diagnose & cure the damn noise? Better yet, if I paid you would you assist?
I'm stock on stock suspension. 61k miles on the 2007z
TIA
When going over a bump... Actually a crack in the road does it as well. I get a crazy rattle coming from what I though was my hatch. Checked the hatch (via driving with hatch wide open) and still heard the noise. Had my girl drive while my 6ft3 asz layed down in the back of the hatch (all hatch pieces and spare were complete removed) and I heard the noise coming from under the trunk.
The noise is mostly on the passenger side but sometimes from both sides. It almost sounds metal to metal. Do you think it's my mounting seal bracket or rear bushings?
Regardless whom do you trust in the Dallas area that I could take my Z to, in order for them to diagnose & cure the damn noise? Better yet, if I paid you would you assist?
I'm stock on stock suspension. 61k miles on the 2007z
TIA
Last edited by J. Dub; 09-08-2010 at 10:28 AM.
09-08-2010, 10:46 AM
#191
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^hit me up when your in town.....
but for now, check the evap canister shielding........ive seen that come loose and make rattling noises.....odds are thats it!
-J
but for now, check the evap canister shielding........ive seen that come loose and make rattling noises.....odds are thats it!
-J
Last edited by JasonZ-YA; 09-08-2010 at 11:07 AM.
09-09-2010, 05:45 AM
#192
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'08Z tire feathering issue...
Hi Jason
I just noticed that the front tires on my '08 with 14k mi are badly cupped on the inside. They've been making noise since 4-5k mi, but I thought it might be "normal" for sports car with low profile tires. I'm so dumb! I've known about this issue for years, but assumed it is fixed on the later models, and didn't bother to investigate the noise. I bought the car new in March of '09.
What do you suggest I do? Let Nissan swap my front tires and re-align? Should I demand new tires?
I was planning to lower my Z this spring on either d-spec combo or Tein-S/D-spec shocks. Would a fully adjustable front Camber/Caster arm like the SPL one help this problem? What do you suggest ?
What do you think causes this problem? I know Nissan says it's caused by excessive toe-out, others think this is due to a design flow of the front suspension. What do you think? If it's a design flow, than all cars will have the same issue. NO?
thx for any help and sorry to bother you
I just noticed that the front tires on my '08 with 14k mi are badly cupped on the inside. They've been making noise since 4-5k mi, but I thought it might be "normal" for sports car with low profile tires. I'm so dumb! I've known about this issue for years, but assumed it is fixed on the later models, and didn't bother to investigate the noise. I bought the car new in March of '09.
What do you suggest I do? Let Nissan swap my front tires and re-align? Should I demand new tires?
I was planning to lower my Z this spring on either d-spec combo or Tein-S/D-spec shocks. Would a fully adjustable front Camber/Caster arm like the SPL one help this problem? What do you suggest ?
What do you think causes this problem? I know Nissan says it's caused by excessive toe-out, others think this is due to a design flow of the front suspension. What do you think? If it's a design flow, than all cars will have the same issue. NO?
thx for any help and sorry to bother you
Last edited by vlado_t; 09-09-2010 at 05:46 AM.
09-09-2010, 05:54 AM
#193
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Originally Posted by vlado_t
Bro, just noticed that the front tires on my '08 with 14k mi are badly cupped on the inside. They've been making noise since 4-5k mi, but I thought it might be "normal" for sports car with low profile tires. I'm so dumb! I've known about this issue for years, but assumed it is fixed on the later models, and didn't bother to investigate the noise. I bought the car new in March of '09.
What do you suggest I do? Let Nissan swap my front tires and re-align? Should I demand new tires?
What do you suggest I do? Let Nissan swap my front tires and re-align? Should I demand new tires?
I would definitely go to Nissan and score new tires...
print out the TSB online or whatever its called and go in asking for new tires and alignment.
with the tires the way they are, it should be done that day.
IF they say that its "your fault" for not noticing, tell them that the car has 14k miles and its not on the owners manual as a item to check, etc...DON'T let them talk you into 15k service or anything...but how else would you have "really" known had you been a typical car owner?? see what im saying??
talk your way into new tires from them...but don't drive away on those like that.
Originally Posted by vlado_t
I was planning to lower my Z this spring on either d-spec combo or Tein-S/D-spec shocks. Would a fully adjustable front Camber/Caster arm like the SPL one help this problem? What do you suggest ?
SPL upper arms are sweet though and wouldnt knock anyone for getting them,they are stiff and built of top quality, easy to adjust, so its yup to you...but your reference to caster wouldn't be the issue here.
This is an easy fix with good quality "easy to adjust" upper control arms like the kinetics - read about them here:
https://my350z.com/forum/8293437-post7.html
These are them:
ONE 360 degree turn equals to about .2-.3 degrees.
Originally Posted by vlado_t
What do you think causes this problem? I know Nissan says it's caused by excessive toe-out, others think this is due to a design flow of the front suspension. What do you think? If it's a design flow, than all cars will have the same issue. NO?
thx for any help and sorry to bother you
thx for any help and sorry to bother you
the actual suspension design is top notch. the Z utilizes a "SLA design type suspension" Google that and read about it.
no worries man, this is an easy fix, and your obviously an enthusiast and wanting to "drop" the car, upgrade, etc...so adding some $239 upper arms isn't all that bad, its a good thing....allowing you to dial in alignment top notch...
This is the front alignment spec:
When you buy whatever front arms you choose, set the front camber to -1.3 and toe to .04 and your golden for no crazy wear.
-J
09-10-2010, 09:06 PM
#195
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Could an expert tell me what this linkage is/does?
One end attaches to the left rear swaybar endlink and the other end attaches to what I assume is some electronic component.
I have a right hand drive 07-08 model with VDC.
One end attaches to the left rear swaybar endlink and the other end attaches to what I assume is some electronic component.
I have a right hand drive 07-08 model with VDC.
Last edited by Buster-here; 09-11-2010 at 02:57 PM.
09-13-2010, 08:40 AM
#196
Jason, I was wondering if you could give me some ideas on whats going on with my suspension. I kinda feel like the car might be too low, and requires a bit more toe out in the rear. But I figured at the very least I'd post my alignment spec incase anyone was curious.
I'm running Stock 18" anniversary wheels on an 06 350z. I went from Stock suspension to Stance GR+. First alignment was with the SPC Rear Camber. Second Alignment was with SPC Rear Camber and SPC Rear Toe Bolts.
Before 1st Alignment: (Stock -> Stance GR+ / SPC Rear Camber)
Left Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 8.8
Toe: -0.12
Right Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.2
Toe: -1.13
Front Total Toe: -0.25
Steer Ahead: 0.00
Left Rear:
Camber: -3.1
Toe: 0.41
Right Rear:
Camber: -3.1
Toe: 0.51
Total Toe: 0.93
After 1st Alignment:
Left Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 8.8
Toe: 0.06
Right Front:
Camber: -2.3
Caster: 9.2
Toe: 0.05
Total Toe: 0.11
Steer Ahead: 0.00
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 1.26
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.6
Toe: 0.99
Total Toe: 2.25
Thurst Angle: 0.14
I'm running Stock 18" anniversary wheels on an 06 350z. I went from Stock suspension to Stance GR+. First alignment was with the SPC Rear Camber. Second Alignment was with SPC Rear Camber and SPC Rear Toe Bolts.
Before 1st Alignment: (Stock -> Stance GR+ / SPC Rear Camber)
Left Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 8.8
Toe: -0.12
Right Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.2
Toe: -1.13
Front Total Toe: -0.25
Steer Ahead: 0.00
Left Rear:
Camber: -3.1
Toe: 0.41
Right Rear:
Camber: -3.1
Toe: 0.51
Total Toe: 0.93
After 1st Alignment:
Left Front:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 8.8
Toe: 0.06
Right Front:
Camber: -2.3
Caster: 9.2
Toe: 0.05
Total Toe: 0.11
Steer Ahead: 0.00
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 1.26
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.6
Toe: 0.99
Total Toe: 2.25
Thurst Angle: 0.14
09-13-2010, 08:45 AM
#197
Second Alignment: (with SPC Rear Toe Bolts)
Front Left:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.0
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 7.2
Included Angle: 4.6
Front Right:
Camber: -2.7
Caster: 9.3
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 6.9
Included Angle: 4.2
Front:
Cross Camber: 0.1
Cross Caster: -0.3
Total Toe: .14
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.2
Toe: 0.45
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 0.17
Rear:
Total Toe: 0.62
Thrust Angle: 0.14
Thank you in advance for any comments or suggestions.
Front Left:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.0
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 7.2
Included Angle: 4.6
Front Right:
Camber: -2.7
Caster: 9.3
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 6.9
Included Angle: 4.2
Front:
Cross Camber: 0.1
Cross Caster: -0.3
Total Toe: .14
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.2
Toe: 0.45
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 0.17
Rear:
Total Toe: 0.62
Thrust Angle: 0.14
Thank you in advance for any comments or suggestions.
09-13-2010, 09:07 AM
#198
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Second Alignment: (with SPC Rear Toe Bolts)
Front Left:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.0
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 7.2
Included Angle: 4.6
Front Right:
Camber: -2.7
Caster: 9.3
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 6.9
Included Angle: 4.2
Front:
Cross Camber: 0.1
Cross Caster: -0.3
Total Toe: .14
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.2
Toe: 0.45
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 0.17
Rear:
Total Toe: 0.62
Thrust Angle: 0.14
Thank you in advance for any comments or suggestions.
Front Left:
Camber: -2.6
Caster: 9.0
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 7.2
Included Angle: 4.6
Front Right:
Camber: -2.7
Caster: 9.3
Toe: 0.07
SAI: 6.9
Included Angle: 4.2
Front:
Cross Camber: 0.1
Cross Caster: -0.3
Total Toe: .14
Left Rear:
Camber: -1.2
Toe: 0.45
Right Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe: 0.17
Rear:
Total Toe: 0.62
Thrust Angle: 0.14
Thank you in advance for any comments or suggestions.
you front:
your front camber is mega high at -2.6....do you have front upper arms?
hows your tire wear up front?
-J
