Bilazaurus

Hi,

I took my 350Z to my trusted mechanic and he said my rear discs and brakes are ready to retire. Now, these are stock Brembo, smooth discs and pads. I want to take my Z to a track someday and this is the problem. Normally I would just buy another Brembo set but I don't think that stock Brembo are gonna last on track. I also want to have comfort in daily driving (no harsh braking and low noise). What are your experiences? What's worth buying? I was thinking Black Diamond discs + EBC yellow/red stuff pads although I heard a lot of bad things about EBC. Any suggestions? Please remember that I live in Poland and stuff that's US only will not apply. Thank you for any input!

Bilazaurus

Ok, so finally after few hours of research I stumbled upon this.

http://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-de...otted-1437513/

It made clear that slotted/drilled are a big no.

Now I'm sure that I'll go with Brembo discs (if there's no better alternative) so I ask for help concerning brake pads.

MicVelo

I'll start by saying I don't have track experience with my Z33/34s so will not recommend anything by name. (I would suggest checking in the Road & Autocross section for actual pad recommendations - by name - for track use.) This is more a general, tactical strategy....

Back when we did have the opportunity to run our dual purpose (street/track) cars in HPDE or school or Solo 1 (running in SSA - Showroom Stock A), we generally kept at least two sets of pads around the garage.

One, a street set - in those days, usually Repco Metal Masters - and a second set (and a spare set on the trailer/in the trunk for track change) of "dedicated track pads" - usually Ferodo.

I would strongly suggest a similar strategy today. EBC Red Stuff (or similar) for street use and another set of say, EBC Yellow or Ferodo DS2500 for track use. (Again, I just use these name brands as placeholders...you choose the pads from your local inventory.) Point is, "dedicated pads to suit the use."

Pad changes at the track were/are about as commonplace as tire changes.

Worked for me.

Cheers,

Mic

Bilazaurus

Thanks for longv input. I appreciate that. I wish i could have possibility to chang them according to need. So I have settle on middle ground

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

Centric high carbon blanks for rotors, pad compound will depend on what youre doing with them.

jenxin

If you plan on multiple track days, I recommend Girodisc Front Rotors, and centric rear blanks. I've had 2 track days on stoptech street performance pads. Works great, no noise, very streetable pad. I've been recommended carbotech xp8's all around or xp10 in front, and xp8 in rear. The carbotech XP8/10 should be streetable, but expect more noise.

Make sure to upgrade to stainless steel lines and do a complete flush with some RBF600 or ATE-SB

jenxin

Also as for how good the stoptechs were... Survived 7x 20min sessions at blackhawk farms (One of the more brake intensive tracks) for a day. Also did well at Autobahn CC South track. 5x 20min sessions, though 2 were wet. Brakes held up very well in both wet/dry conditions. I'd say it's got about 50% life.

goracerx

Drilled rotors are excellent. You will see them on high end sports cars! I've never had issues with brand name quality drilled rotors. My motorcycle has them. Show me a crotch rocket without them.

Dealer will tell you Brembo rotors can't be turned ...LIE. Any rotor can be turned as long as it's still over the recommended minimum thickness.

You MUST get pads that specify they are for the Brembo rotors. I do not like EBC. Endless are excellent, but be warned they do not have the metal wear indicators.

Note: The inner pads wear twice as fast as the outer. I was going to try to rotate my Endless pads.

Keep in mind Race parts are a necessity for the track and not an upgrade for the street. In fact it can actually be dangerous (Hi temp pads or carbon rotors are race parts).

Phenom

iTrader: (4)

I always hear talk about how drilled/slotted rotors suck and crack and don't do what they're supposed to and all that. It's my understanding the slots are for removing the gas interface between the pad and rotor and the holes are for cooling. Both make sense to me in theory yet you always hear how cross drilled rotors are actually worse for heat dissipation (although none of these articles ever have a simple thermo analysis which would definitely be conclusive enough). Cross drilled rotors have more surface area which will allow them to cool to ambient quicker and as a result pull more heat from the pads. However I would also imagine they would be easier to heat up since they have less mass, so with the pro comes the con.

I've always been told they are prone to cracking, but I've put 5 autox sessions on my current set of drilled/slotted rotors and have had zero issues. If they do eventually crack I'll eat my words and it will just give me an excuse to upgrade to some two-piece slotted rotors.

JMII

If your are tracking the car then this is the order of importance:

1) Fluid - must replace as the stock stuff will boil easily. Once the fluid is cooked you are done as the pedal will get soft from fade / air in the lines. So replace with racing fluid, I use Motul 660.
2) Pads - pick something more aggressive that can handle the heat. My brother runs EBC yellows on his Golf R, I run Project Mu HC+ Plus on my Z. Both work fine. Keep in mind dust and noise will increase with more aggressive pads. Really aggressive race pads will not work when cold under normal street driving as they are designed to only work at race temps.
3) Rotors - doesn't really matter until you go to weight saving two piece setups. So premium Centrics will be fine as they are the same as StopTechs. Don't pay big money for discs as they are pretty much all the same. Pad choice is more important. I run slotted Centrics and avoid drilled due to the stress cracking issues you already learned about.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Back to the OP's original questions:

For brake rotors, consider the best low cost, high-quality alternative out there. For me this was the Centric high-carbon one piece rotor. Rock Auto had the best price, but you can shop around to see if that's changed.

For brake pads, keep in mind these have become quite specialized. Cobalt Friction XR2 compound pads have the kind of aggressive bite and progressive feel that I like for racing and track use. They dust quite a bit, but are easy on rotors and do put down a film that helps them to work well.

Brake fluid is critical for good brake operation and if I were in Europe, ATE Super Blue or Gold 200 are what I'd seek out for a good DOT 4 replacement.

sry110

iTrader: (17)

My 2006 Z with OEM Brembo calipers is running Centric slotted front and rear rotors with StopTech Street Performance pads. At some point the pads appear to have stuck to the rotors, leaving a rough pad-shaped patch on each rotor which now causes vibration and pulsation when applying the brakes at all speeds. I am gearing up to replace all rotors and pads. Low dust is a key requirement, and I also do not wish to break the bank since this car gets very limited use (maybe 1000 miles per year).
That being said, any recommendations for new pads and rotors? I was thinking Centric blanks and Akebono pads but I am open to recommendations. Thanks!

goracerx

I had EBC chew up Z-Speed drilled Mugen replica's back in the Honda days. I just noticed rotating my Endless pads that there was like a bump in the inner pad and a very deep groove on the inside rotor. I just received the Centric/Stop Tec Drilled rotors from the same shop as posted above. THey are not light weight but the veins are directional. I have to check the outer rotor to see if the issue is the pads or the OEM Brembo rotor. I was going to get Australian rotors but they are no longer directional.

MicVelo

I recently swapped out a set of Hawk HPS on one of my cars (not a bad pad but a little more dusty and noisy than I liked - now kept as a spare set) and replaced them with Carbotech 1521 Bobcats. I've only got a few hundred miles on them from bed-in but they are stellar performers - FOR MY USE - with negligible dusting and no noise at all.

Great initial bite, very easy to modulate and so far, no fade even in repeated late brake curves - BUT, for all intents and purposes, "street driven". Mind you, this is in a standard caliper not Brembo but I can't imagine the Brembo version would be any different.

Carbotech doesn't recommend this pad for track though, so take this as just a datapoint.

I'm running them up against Stop Tech/Centric slotted rotors but if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't hesitate to go with the Centric blanks.

Phenom

iTrader: (4)

Any idea when in the pad's life it left a patch on the rotor? I've heard about this happening but as far as I know only when the pads are brand new and have never been brought up to full temp before. If you get them very hot and then completely stop moving for a few moments the pads can transfer a layer to the rotor. My neighbors corvette has visible pad marks on the rotors. Never knew it could happen outside of the pads being new though.

And to answer your question, I have centric posi quiet pads. I like everything about how they perform except for how dusty they are so from your criteria you can cross them off the list. In fact for that reason I won't be buying them again because I also want a pad with a lot less dust. I've been reading about EBC red pads which sound great for the street and have minimal dust. I'll probably go with those next.

sry110

iTrader: (17)

Thanks for the suggestion, I will surely consider those pads! I'm pretty set on Centric blank rotors this time around as they should not give me any problems, and should be easier to resurface (versus slotted rotors) if I ever needed to at some point.

I remember back in ~2011 when I had the Brembos installed, I was on my way back from the shop that did the install and applied the brakes and they grabbed very severely and then seemed to let go. I was not going through a bed-in process but should have been (I wasn't thinking about the fact that the shop did not take the car our for a test drive / bed-in drive after installing the fresh rotors). The pads were lightly-used OEM Brembo pads that came with the calipers. It's possible that at that time the OEM Brembo pads left a patch on the rotors....but I can't remember if the vibration/pulsation issue started at that time or soon after.

Later I swapped the OEM Brembo dusters for StopTech Street Performance pads, which I currently have on the car. IIRC the problem intensified (if not started altogether) with these pads.

Another possible cause for the problem is that most times after I wash the car, I pull it right back into the garage where it will often sit 1-2 weeks before I move it again. The pads become noticeably stuck to the rotors, like I have to slip the clutch a bit giving it gas to break the bond between the pads and rotors the next time I drive it. I'm thinking I need to do the following:

* Replace all 4 rotors
* Leave StopTech street perf. pads in place (they only have ~3000 miles on them)
* Execute proper bedding-in process
* Take car for a drive after each washing to remove any residual water from the pad-disc interface before putting the car back into short-term storage.

Honestly, one of the reasons I rarely drive the car is because the brakes feel so unsettling. I would like to start enjoying the car again so maybe putting in this time+money will pay off.

MicVelo

Based on this, I will state the obvious: It's either the pads or the rotors are warped.

But I very much doubt that it's the rotors, what with them being fresh when the Brems were installed. That leaves the pads since you mention that the move from the Brembo pads to StopTech intensified the NVH.

But what is the root cause?

Well, were the Brembos used when you installed them? If so, it's very possible that they, having sat dry, has caused them to gall (or quite possibly internally rust a bit) or just the time they sat dry caused the seals to dry out and/or the piston-to-cylinder-walls to "cake", causing them (or at least one of them) to stick, resulting in uneven brake force against the pad(s) which is likely causing the vibration/pulsing.

Here's what I would do (BTDT): Pretty much what you said you'd do BUT, DO NOT replace the rotors just yet BUT remove the pads. While the pads are out, inspect the wear patterns and uniformity of wear across the pad. Uneven wear (thicker on one end or the other) or anything less than a smooth finish across the pad face will point you to a bad caliper diagnosis.

Barring any irregular wear from "reading the pads", retract the pistons of each caliper and see if you can detect any "gronkiness" (for want of a better word) in their movement. (Being cautious not to spill fluid from the top of the brake master of course or at least keeping a big rag underneath the open-cap reservoir.)

Obviously, if there IS a "bad feel" to the piston movement, have or do a rebuild of the suspect caliper making sure that the piston bores are "shiny" and clean. Use a medium-to-fine brake hone for this.

Before re-installing the pads, use coarse sand paper to re-burnish the pads - a belt sander or hand sander works great here - making sure you wear breathing and eye protection. Take off a couple of thousandths off the pads to clear the glaze. (Optionally, if they are that bad or worn more than 50%, replace them with good NEW pads and scuff those by hand sanding before re-installing.)

Next, scuff up the rotors using a cross hatching motion and use a liberal amount of BrakeKleen following.

Now reinstall everything and BLEED THE BRAKES completely.

Finally run an extended bedding process - meaning do it once, let 'em cool, then repeat.

I'm giving odds that this cures the problem.

If not, then suspect the rotors. R&R as needed.

Good luck!

Mic

sry110

iTrader: (17)

Thanks for the thorough advice, Mic.
Let me offer the following and see if it changes your hypothesis at all:
* There are "pad-shaped" patches on the rotors which I can both see and feel, i.e. they are a darker color and are rough to the touch when compared to the rest of the rotor. I confirm they are present on the rear rotors but cannot remember on the fronts....will have to take a look when I get home this afternoon.

* The calipers were purchased used but were in nearly new condition. According to the seller they had been used for 5000 miles and were taken off recently before he sold them to me. When I installed the StopTech pads I do not remember any of the pistons (front or rear) putting up a fight to be compressed back into the caliper to accommodate the new pads.

* I have not noticed any noise or heat that might indicate a pad is dragging due to sitting unevenly in the caliper

* The vibration/pulsation I feel is, as best I can tell, once per wheel revolution. It's very apparent at low speeds when decelerating to a stop.


In any case, I agree it would be a good idea to inspect the pads before sinking any money into replacement parts.

MicVelo

Impressions on the rotors that you can FEEL?

Hmmmm... I would suspect a non-bedded, possibly overheated pad and/or warped rotor. Wheels properly torqued?

Read the pads AND scuff up the rotors until they're smooth again and give that a try. Could be and hope it's as simple as that.

Have you identified which rotor/brake is giving you the problem? That's the hardest part but start with the one that has the visible issue.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

Mic

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

You need to re-bed your pads and rotors. Do two full cycles which should take care of the uneven deposits on the rotors you describe, an in turn hopefully get rid of your vibrations.

A stuck piston wont cause vibration or pulsating in itself, only a steering pull and overheating which can then lead to warping and uneven deposits, possibly causing vibration.

If re-bedding doesnt fix the pulsating, then likely your rotors are warped.