Too Much Break?
10-04-2016, 12:48 PM
#1
Too Much Break?
Hey Gents,
Looking for track people's experience or other inputs.
Current setup which is:
Factory break system and factory size rotors with SS lines and,
carbotech XP 10 in the Front and XP 8 in the rear
Nitto 555 245/40 18 and 275/35 18
After my third track day on 2 different tracks my ABS seems to be kicking in on the rear only. I thought it my be my down shifting (usually 4-3) but i was experimenting and just leaving it in forth and its still doing it. I'm thinking on my current setup the XP 8's are doing too good of a job, or maybe I'm doing too much breaking.
Should I try going with one level lower (AX6)? Should I not suck? Some sord of other trickery? Deal with it until the tires run out and get something stronger? Sell the car and parts now before its too late?
Looking for track people's experience or other inputs.
Current setup which is:
Factory break system and factory size rotors with SS lines and,
carbotech XP 10 in the Front and XP 8 in the rear
Nitto 555 245/40 18 and 275/35 18
After my third track day on 2 different tracks my ABS seems to be kicking in on the rear only. I thought it my be my down shifting (usually 4-3) but i was experimenting and just leaving it in forth and its still doing it. I'm thinking on my current setup the XP 8's are doing too good of a job, or maybe I'm doing too much breaking.
Should I try going with one level lower (AX6)? Should I not suck? Some sord of other trickery? Deal with it until the tires run out and get something stronger? Sell the car and parts now before its too late?
10-04-2016, 01:25 PM
#2
It would help to know your model year and trim level to know what stock brakes you have.
The driver might need to ease up on the brakes but my thought would be to upgrade the fronts to XP12s to match the rear not the other way around. Seems odd with such a large stagger in tire sizes that the rear would be locking before the font.
One of the guys that actually tracks the car should have better answers.
The driver might need to ease up on the brakes but my thought would be to upgrade the fronts to XP12s to match the rear not the other way around. Seems odd with such a large stagger in tire sizes that the rear would be locking before the font.
One of the guys that actually tracks the car should have better answers.
10-04-2016, 02:17 PM
#3
Registered User
ok first, its brakes. secondly, if youre running the oem brembo, they should be more than enough stopping power. thirdly, the pads doesnt do much other than dissipate the heats. other than bad pads, the initiate bit should be more than enough on most pads.
with all that said, if your abs is kicking it, its due to the system sensing that the brakes are about to lock up so it pumps it. i can only think of a handful of reasons as to why the abs will kick in on the track, and one of it being the driver. dont stand on your brakes as you brake entering the corner. if the tires starts skidding, youre braking too hard and too fast.
with all that said, if your abs is kicking it, its due to the system sensing that the brakes are about to lock up so it pumps it. i can only think of a handful of reasons as to why the abs will kick in on the track, and one of it being the driver. dont stand on your brakes as you brake entering the corner. if the tires starts skidding, youre braking too hard and too fast.
10-04-2016, 02:18 PM
#4
It would help to know your model year and trim level to know what stock brakes you have.
The driver might need to ease up on the brakes but my thought would be to upgrade the fronts to XP12s to match the rear not the other way around. Seems odd with such a large stagger in tire sizes that the rear would be locking before the font.
One of the guys that actually tracks the car should have better answers.
The driver might need to ease up on the brakes but my thought would be to upgrade the fronts to XP12s to match the rear not the other way around. Seems odd with such a large stagger in tire sizes that the rear would be locking before the font.
One of the guys that actually tracks the car should have better answers.
10-04-2016, 02:21 PM
#5
ok first, its brakes. secondly, if youre running the oem brembo, they should be more than enough stopping power. thirdly, the pads doesnt do much other than dissipate the heats. other than bad pads, the initiate bit should be more than enough on most pads.
with all that said, if your abs is kicking it, its due to the system sensing that the brakes are about to lock up so it pumps it. i can only think of a handful of reasons as to why the abs will kick in on the track, and one of it being the driver. dont stand on your brakes as you brake entering the corner. if the tires starts skidding, youre braking too hard and too fast.
with all that said, if your abs is kicking it, its due to the system sensing that the brakes are about to lock up so it pumps it. i can only think of a handful of reasons as to why the abs will kick in on the track, and one of it being the driver. dont stand on your brakes as you brake entering the corner. if the tires starts skidding, youre braking too hard and too fast.
10-04-2016, 02:22 PM
#6
Registered User
10-04-2016, 04:41 PM
#7
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but your answers are get a stronger more heat disapaiting pad in order to increase the chances of the abs in the front to kick in, and to increase my braking distance to inhibit the abs in the rear; which increases heat and degrades overall braking performance? Which also goes against the track mindset of getting to maximum braking threshold in the beginning and easing out until it's time to enter the corner. Or am I missing something?
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10-04-2016, 05:31 PM
#8
Registered User
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but your answers are get a stronger more heat disapaiting pad in order to increase the chances of the abs in the front to kick in, and to increase my braking distance to inhibit the abs in the rear; which increases heat and degrades overall braking performance? Which also goes against the track mindset of getting to maximum braking threshold in the beginning and easing out until it's time to enter the corner. Or am I missing something?
what im saying is pads have very little to the initial bite of the brakes. after the initial clamps, its the tires that are doing the stopping. the tires will skid much earlier than the abs should kick in, so if theyre kicking in, its liking youre braking too hard. yes its a thing.
now im not a professional driver but, there are very little that would lead to the abs kicking in, which, one of is operator error. my impression of your initial post is that you want better pads to stop the abs from kicking in, which i dont believe is going to help any. abs is there to stop the brakes from locking up, and the pads doesnt contributes too.
10-04-2016, 06:37 PM
#9
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
Hey Gents,
Looking for track people's experience or other inputs.
Current setup which is:
Factory break system and factory size rotors with SS lines and,
carbotech XP 10 in the Front and XP 8 in the rear
Nitto 555 245/40 18 and 275/35 18
After my third track day on 2 different tracks my ABS seems to be kicking in on the rear only. I thought it my be my down shifting (usually 4-3) but i was experimenting and just leaving it in forth and its still doing it. I'm thinking on my current setup the XP 8's are doing too good of a job, or maybe I'm doing too much breaking.
Should I try going with one level lower (AX6)? Should I not suck? Some sord of other trickery? Deal with it until the tires run out and get something stronger? Sell the car and parts now before its too late?
Looking for track people's experience or other inputs.
Current setup which is:
Factory break system and factory size rotors with SS lines and,
carbotech XP 10 in the Front and XP 8 in the rear
Nitto 555 245/40 18 and 275/35 18
After my third track day on 2 different tracks my ABS seems to be kicking in on the rear only. I thought it my be my down shifting (usually 4-3) but i was experimenting and just leaving it in forth and its still doing it. I'm thinking on my current setup the XP 8's are doing too good of a job, or maybe I'm doing too much breaking.
Should I try going with one level lower (AX6)? Should I not suck? Some sord of other trickery? Deal with it until the tires run out and get something stronger? Sell the car and parts now before its too late?
Speculation...
I think it's pretty clear that you either don't have enough braking power if you are braking to the point of impending rear lock-up or your brake bias F-R is off.
That is, if it's a mechanical issue.
Something to consider here before you go about doing the mechanical diagnosis. While I'm not familiar with the turn or turn combination you're braking for, have you tried altering your braking points, e.g., instead of between brake marker 2 and 3 (or distance marked brake markers if that's more applicable), maybe earlier braking at 3 and trail braking down to the apex?
Driver compensation to "fix" braking issues later in a race (when brakes are hot or worn or otherwise overtaxed) is pretty common, particularly if you're not running in-car bias adjustment.
If that's not the problem then I would try increasing front braking power. That's where a larger percentage of your braking comes from so by increasing front brake, that takes some load off the rears which are obviously trying to work too hard.
OR... moving up to the XP10 (or comparable) at the rear as well to take more of the load. XP8, while a decent pad, isn't really meant for heavy cars like our Z's. XP8 works well on 2,000# cars better than on ours.
Finally, there's the question of tires. That rear size tire you quoted, being much shorter than the OEM size, might be feeding your ECU incorrect wheel speeds (higher than the ECU expects) and is triggering your ABS. Just something to consider.
Good luck tracking it down.
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rizeld (10-05-2016)
10-05-2016, 12:11 PM
#10
Speculation...
I think it's pretty clear that you either don't have enough braking power if you are braking to the point of impending rear lock-up or your brake bias F-R is off.
That is, if it's a mechanical issue.
Something to consider here before you go about doing the mechanical diagnosis. While I'm not familiar with the turn or turn combination you're braking for, have you tried altering your braking points, e.g., instead of between brake marker 2 and 3 (or distance marked brake markers if that's more applicable), maybe earlier braking at 3 and trail braking down to the apex?
Driver compensation to "fix" braking issues later in a race (when brakes are hot or worn or otherwise overtaxed) is pretty common, particularly if you're not running in-car bias adjustment.
If that's not the problem then I would try increasing front braking power. That's where a larger percentage of your braking comes from so by increasing front brake, that takes some load off the rears which are obviously trying to work too hard.
OR... moving up to the XP10 (or comparable) at the rear as well to take more of the load. XP8, while a decent pad, isn't really meant for heavy cars like our Z's. XP8 works well on 2,000# cars better than on ours.
Finally, there's the question of tires. That rear size tire you quoted, being much shorter than the OEM size, might be feeding your ECU incorrect wheel speeds (higher than the ECU expects) and is triggering your ABS. Just something to consider.
Good luck tracking it down.
I think it's pretty clear that you either don't have enough braking power if you are braking to the point of impending rear lock-up or your brake bias F-R is off.
That is, if it's a mechanical issue.
Something to consider here before you go about doing the mechanical diagnosis. While I'm not familiar with the turn or turn combination you're braking for, have you tried altering your braking points, e.g., instead of between brake marker 2 and 3 (or distance marked brake markers if that's more applicable), maybe earlier braking at 3 and trail braking down to the apex?
Driver compensation to "fix" braking issues later in a race (when brakes are hot or worn or otherwise overtaxed) is pretty common, particularly if you're not running in-car bias adjustment.
If that's not the problem then I would try increasing front braking power. That's where a larger percentage of your braking comes from so by increasing front brake, that takes some load off the rears which are obviously trying to work too hard.
OR... moving up to the XP10 (or comparable) at the rear as well to take more of the load. XP8, while a decent pad, isn't really meant for heavy cars like our Z's. XP8 works well on 2,000# cars better than on ours.
Finally, there's the question of tires. That rear size tire you quoted, being much shorter than the OEM size, might be feeding your ECU incorrect wheel speeds (higher than the ECU expects) and is triggering your ABS. Just something to consider.
Good luck tracking it down.
I have tried changing brake markers, and noticed increased rotor temperatures which im not sure what to do about or how to interpret.
I replaced all the calibers last year (which doesn't mean much) and the rotors and pads are for the track only.
Without installing a brake bias I'm torn between going with xp 12 in the front or xp 10 in the rear. You have a personal choice/guess?
10-05-2016, 04:09 PM
#11
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
I have noticed my speed is a little off due to the tire size.
I have tried changing brake markers, and noticed increased rotor temperatures which im not sure what to do about or how to interpret.
I replaced all the calibers last year (which doesn't mean much) and the rotors and pads are for the track only.
Without installing a brake bias I'm torn between going with xp 12 in the front or xp 10 in the rear. You have a personal choice/guess?
I have tried changing brake markers, and noticed increased rotor temperatures which im not sure what to do about or how to interpret.
I replaced all the calibers last year (which doesn't mean much) and the rotors and pads are for the track only.
Without installing a brake bias I'm torn between going with xp 12 in the front or xp 10 in the rear. You have a personal choice/guess?
One of our more avid/serious road racers, David (dkmura), recommends Carbon Friction on his T3 racer. (Chime in here, David...
)
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