Go Back   MY350Z.COM Forums > 350Z Tech Area > Engine & Drivetrain
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Register Photos FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read ExperienceUsed CarsGarageVendor Directory
Search


Welcome to my350z.com!
Welcome to my350z.com.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!


Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-24-2007, 04:34 PM   #1
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Post VQ Oil Analysis and Info

This thread contains a collection of Used Oil Analysis (UOA) results from the VQ35DE engine, along with general engine oil data, designed to help 350Z owners decide which oil brands and weights are best for their needs. The first part of this thread is laid out in a Q&A style format. The remaining pages contain discussion and contribution from members, many of whom have selflessly shared their UOA results in this thread. Thanks to everyone who has contributed their UOA result for the benefit of the Z community. (Note: this thread is no longer being updated by the OP)

So what’s the best engine oil to use in my VQ35DE?
There’s not one “best” oil. There are several oils that have consistently performed well in the VQ engine, according to Used Oil Analysis results. In fact, most of the common engine oils available at your local auto parts store will perform just fine in your 350Z. And while some do tend to look better than others in UOA results, most API and SAE certified 30 and 40 weight oils will meet the needs of the VQ35DE engine.

What is a Used Oil Analysis (UOA), and where/how/why is it done?
It is an analysis of used engine oil performed at a lab. Customers collect some of their used oil, usually during the oil change, and send it in to the lab to be analyzed. Two of the most popular testing labs are:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

http://www.dysonanalysis.com/index.html

Click the image to open in full size.

After running several tests on the oil sample sent to them, the lab sends the customer a data sheet which reveals the condition of the oil and any problems occurring within the engine. The amount of engine wear that took place while using the oil is, to some degree, correlated to the amount of certain trace metals found in the used oil. A UOA will also show how much the oil sheared down with use, and if it is safe to use it or a longer oil change interval. A Used Oil Analysis also highlights the condition of the engine and identifies any potential problems that may be developing by detecting the presence of any dirt, anti-freeze, sludge or fuel in the oil.

Click the image to open in full size.

Where exactly do the traces of metals come from, and how do they indicate engine wear?
The most common metals in your used oil and where they might have come from are:
Iron: Comes from cylinder liner, camshaft, oil pump, and timing chain wear
Chromium: Comes from piston ring wear
Copper: Comes from bearings, valve guides, and bushings wear
Lead: Comes from bearing wear
Aluminum: Comes from piston and piston thrust bearing wear
Silver & Tin: Comes from bearing wear

Which metals are the most important to have low numbers?
I look for the lowest possible numbers of Lead, Copper, and Chromium in the oil sample to indicate better protection of critical areas. The bearings and piston rings are not just critical areas because of their function, they are critical to protect because they comprise a much smaller amount of the total engine mass than Iron and Aluminum parts. 5ppm wear of Lead off a relatively tiny bearing is a much higher percentage of wear than 5ppm of Iron from the crankshaft, camshafts, timing chain, etc... The same principle applies to the piston rings, where I consider 2ppm of Chromium to be high wear for such a small part.

Where do the other elements come from, and do they indicate engine wear?
The only other element to look for in low numbers, in addition to the wear metals listed above, is silicon. High silicon could mean a bad air or oil filter is not trapping dirt. The other trace elements are usually part of an additive package that oils use, and are not from engine wear. Looking at the numbers of these other elements can be useful in determining if a manufacturer has changed their formula, or to see what type of additives they use. The most common other elements found in an oil sample and what they commonly indicate are:
Silicon: dirt ingestion, sometimes used as an anti-foamant
Molybdenum: anti-wear additive and friction reducer
Boron: anti-wear additive and friction reducer
Calcium: common additive with many functions, primarily a detergent
Magnesium: common additive with many functions
Phosphorous: anti-wear additive and friction reducer, shear stabilizer
Zinc: anti-wear additive and friction reducer, shear stabilizer

What do the viscosity numbers mean, and how do I read them?
The viscosity numbers are from a specific test to determine the viscosity of an oil at a given temperature, as measured in cSt (centistokes). A higher number means a thicker oil at operating temperature, and a lower number means a thinner oil at operating temperature. A higher or lower number is neither good or bad in and of itself; it is merely a measure of the oil’s viscosity. Some oils thinned out, or sheared, from use and became thinner than their original grade.

Are higher or lower TBN numbers better, and why don’t all the UOAs in this thread have a TBN number?
All engine oils break down with use and time. The result is an accumulation of acids in the oil. These acids are what form sludge. The oil’s base stock and the additives in the oil work together to help prevent sludge from forming. The Total Base Number (TBN) is a measure of how well the formulation is working to fight sludge and acid build-up. A high TBN means there is still more base than acid in the used oil and is therefore a good indication of how robust the oil is for extending the oil change interval. It usually costs extra to get a TBN test done, so not all of the samples have a TBN value.

Where can I see all the UOA results?
The aggregated UOA results for the VQ35DE engine are located in the chart below. The individual UOA results used to create this chart are posted throughout this thread as they are submitted by members. Only current formulations (as of summer 2011) of oil are included in the chart below, but all submitted UOA results (some from as far back as 2003) were used to find the mean and standard deviation values.
The name and weight of each oil tested is at the top of the chart. The row below each oil brand and weight shows the number of samples collected for that particular oil. The next rows contain the amount of trace elements found in the used oil, measured in parts per million (ppm) and normalized at 1000 miles. Values above and below the standard deviation are colored red and green, respectively.

Click the image to open in full size.


I think your chart of UOA results is stupid and useless. Is there another way to compare oils?
Absolutely. OEMs spend big money developing their own test sequences and standards; while the API, ACEA, and ILSAC are all independent bodies which develop ever-evolving oil standards for different countries. Lubrizol has put together a wonderful interactive spider diagram allowing you to compare different oil specs to see how they stack up:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

As of 2011, it is clear from the site above that an oil meeting MB's 229.5 specification has to meet some pretty high standards for minimizing engine wear, reducing sludge and deposit formations, and resisting oxidation. An oil which meets this, and/or other high-performance specifications, will most likely be a great oil for your needs. However, if you really want to have some idea of how the oil is performing, and certainly if you want to see how long of a drain interval is appropriate for your use, a UOA would still be beneficial.

Last edited by Resolute; 06-04-2012 at 11:11 AM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2007, 04:43 PM   #2
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Are these UOA results from other VQ35 engines indicative to how well an oil will work in my own VQ35?
To be absolutely certain of what works the best for your engine and how you drive, you would need to do your own UOA. However, the variance in UOA results between same model vehicles with the same engine is typically small. Each sample collected here is from a VQ35DE. Different drivers living in different climates have posted similar UOA results for the same oil. Unless the engine is FI, raced, or a built block, the trends tend to be the same for each oil. It is the trend and tendency for some oils to outperform others that are important, not the specific numbers themselves. In other words, your own results with a particular oil might show a few wear numbers higher or lower than the average results for that oil, but an oil that shows low wear compared to other oils in the comparison chart will still typically show lower wear than those other oils in your own engine.

For example, one forum member thought he could lower the trace metals seen in his own UOAs by switching from Royal Purple 10W-30 to Amsoil TSO 0W-30. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the RP oil, he just noticed that the Amsoil was showing lower wear numbers on average, so he thought he'd switch. As seen below, his own wear numbers dropped as well. He tested the Amsoil twice to be sure the first UOA he had with the oil wasn't a fluke:

Click the image to open in full size.

Likewise, another member followed suit, and saw his wear numbers drop as well:

Click the image to open in full size.

While their own results were slightly different, in both cases switching to the Amsoil TSO 0W-30 followed the same overall trend seen in the comparison chart: the Amsoil TSO showed reduced trace metals compared to the two RP weights. The drop in wear metals may be due to the change in viscosity, or perhaps the oil formulation. Either way, their individual UOAs followed the trend seen in the comparison chart. (note: the comparison chart has been updated to reflect the current Amsoil 0W-30 offering, which has shown higher trace metals on average than the older TSO formula)

Won’t residual oil from a previous oil change affect the UOA results?
Not usually. The amount of oil remaining in the engine after draining the crankcase is less than half a quart on average.

Won’t oil filters affect the number of wear metals that show up in a UOA?
Not typically. A Used Oil Analysis only measures particles 5 microns and smaller, which is smaller than what oil filters can filter. Oil filters are actually measured by their ability to filter out particles 10 microns and larger. It is possible, however, that a very poor oil filter might allow very large particles to circulate through the system, rather than filtering them, which could cause extra wear.

Which oil filter should I use?
There are several good filters out there, and this site: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/FilterStudy.html covers the same filter as used on the VQ35 with all the information you need to pick a good one. The only thing I will add is that for extended oil drains, a synthetic media filter has been shown to maintain filtering efficiency longer than other filters. So, if you plan on going longer than 7k miles on an oil change, I recommend a good synthetic filter like Mobil1, K&N, or Amsoil. For further explanation of filtering efficiency and beta ratios, here is an article by Jeremy Wright at Noria: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...=Lubricati on

Here is an oil filter cross-reference chart for the 350Z's VQ35DE:
Click the image to open in full size.

I use (insert brand name here) and my engine runs fine, and/or is used by my favorite racing team, and/or is advertised as the best, and/or is proven to be great oil for some other engine- how come its UOA results aren’t very good?
Subjective remarks like the “feel” of the engine, dyno results with a particular oil, and biased advertising do not indicate better protection than another oil. As to race car engines, they don’t have the same oil needs as a personal car, so don’t assume what's advertised for a race engine will be the best for driving to work every day. You wouldn't drive slick tires on the street or use racing compound brake pads on your commuter car, because these products are optimized to be most effective at the high temperatures and stresses of a racing environment. A parallel can be drawn with racing oils, as well. Finally, an oil that has been shown to work well in one model of engine does not mean it will show the same performance in another model of engine, which might have very different clearances, oil pressure, operating temperatures, and lubrication needs (turbos, variable valve lift systems, rollers vs flat tappets, etc..). A UOA is a convenient way to determine if the oil you prefer has the right chemistry for your needs, without any hype.

For example, one member used a Motul 8100 series oil in his car and the wear was relatively high. He figured switching to one of Motul's 300V racing series oils would be better, but it was still worse than average for wear. Neither was especially bad for his engine, but they were relatively expensive and didn't meet his expectations considering how heavily marketed they were. He decided to try two oils which had much lower average wear results in the UOA comparison chart, even though they weren't as heavily advertised to the Z community. As expected, his own UOAs showed much lower trace metals, and they also cost less.

Click the image to open in full size.

What about my FI and/or built engine?
Check with your engine builder for a recommended oil to use with your built engine. The clearances, materials, contact pressures, boost pressure, FI types, and oil pressures in built engines all vary, especially compared to the more consistent clearances and tuning of OEM engines. Therefore, the results of the collected UOA’s may not indicate what works best in your built engine like it does for a stock engine.

What does the oil weight actually mean?
An oil’s weight refers to it’s measured viscosity at a given temperature. The temperature of the oil is important when measuring it’s viscosity because an oil becomes thinner, or less viscous, when it is heated. Conversely, oil becomes thicker, or more viscous, when it is cooled. Because oil viscosity changes with temperature, an oil’s weight is determined by the measured viscosity at a specific temperature (100 deg C). The unit of measure is called a centistroke (cSt). The higher the measure of viscosity at 100 deg C in centistrokes (cSt), the higher the oil’s weight. The following chart shows the viscosity an oil must be at a given temperature for each oil weight.
Click the image to open in full size.

So how does that translate into the weight I see printed on the bottle, like 10W-30?
Some oils are straight weight oils, like a straight 30 weight oil. This means the oil is always a 30 weight oil at any given temperature. The oil still thins out with heat, and thickens up as it cools, but at any given temperature it will measure within the specs for a 30 weight oil at that temperature. This is not good for your engine during cold starts or in cold weather, because a 30 weight oil is very thick when it is cold. Thick oils are harder to pump and therefore don’t flow through the engine and lubricate very quickly. The solution is a multi-grade oil. A multi-grade oil is still thicker when it is cold than when hot, but not as thick as a straight weight oil. In the case of a 10W-30, the “10” refers to the oil’s “Winter” weight (hence the “W”). A 10 weight oil is thinner than a 30 weight oil at cold temperatures, and thereby flows easier to properly lubricate the engine upon start-up. As the engine reaches operating temperature, the oil thins out- but does not stay a 10 weight oil. It becomes a heavier weight, and in this case, becomes only as thin as a 30 weight oil at operating temperature. Here is a simple chart that shows how a 10W-30 compares to straight 10 and 30 weight oils:

Click the image to open in full size.

What winter weight should I use, a 5W, 10W.. etc?
Since the majority of engine wear occurs during start-up, it is important to use oil that will flow well and lubricate the engine quickly during this time. Remembering that oil is thicker when cold, the proper winter weight is one which provides the maximum amount of flow for the given ambient temperatures when the engine is started. The colder the temperature of the oil, the harder it is to pump, so a thinner winter weight is beneficial during start-up. As ambient temperatures increase, the oil will thin out and start to get closer to its operating grade, and at some point, multi-grade oils like 5W-30 and 10W-30 will be close to the same viscosity for a given ambient temperature. This means that there is no harm in using 5W oil even in hot climates. As an example, the start-up viscosity of a 5W-40 and a 15W-40 may well be the same if the ambient temperature is hot enough. This also means that heavier winter weight oil (such as 15W-xx) may be used if the ambient temperatures are warm enough to ensure that it can be pumped quickly enough to properly lubricate the engine during start-up. The importance of selecting an oil with proper start-up viscosity is paramount, and is why auto manufacturers recommend winter weights based on the ambient temperatures with charts similar to this one:
Click the image to open in full size.

Are 0W-xx oils too thin for my engine?
As discussed previously, multi-grade oils are designed to behave like two different oil weights at two different temperatures. Since an oil is thicker with colder temperatures, a lower weight oil flows better, and better protects the engine during start-up since it is easier to pump to critical areas. So, a 0W-xx oil is a better oil for start-up, especially in cold temperatures. When the oil heats up and starts to thin out, it becomes a heavier weight oil just like a 5W-xx or 10W-xx oil would. So, a 0W-xx oil is only a “thinner” oil when it’s cold- where it is a benefit. At operating temperatures, a 0W-30 is the same weight as a 5W or 10W-30, just as a 0W-40 is the same weight as a 15W-40, etc... Therefore, 0W-xx oils tend to be better suited for year-round use in any climate, since they flow better in cold temps but become as thick as any other similar grade oil when hot. In the case of Castrol's Syntec oil, the 0W-30 is actually thicker than their 10W-30 at 100 degrees:

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Resolute; 03-23-2012 at 06:19 PM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2007, 05:33 PM   #3
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Is a thicker oil better for engine protection than a thinner one?
Not usually, but sometimes. There is a relationship between viscosity, pressure, and lubrication. As viscosity decreases, or pressure increases, lubrication begins to suffer at some point. The relationship can be plotted for various oils and the resulting graph is known as the Stribeck Curve. This curve shows us that increasing levels of pressure require an increase in viscosity in order to maintain proper lubrication. Thicker oil will have higher film strength than thinner oil, and therefore withstand extreme pressure and heat better. This is why racing engines which see extremely high temps and pressures will use very high oil weights. For a street driven car, however, too thick of an oil will create more drag in the engine and can cost you horsepower and fuel efficiency. The general rule of thumb is to use as thin an oil as possible that still offers good protection from engine wear. Nissan recommends nothing thinner than a 30 weight and nothing thicker than 40 weight oil. The only way to be sure if higher viscosity oil is needed to protect your engine for the way you drive, is with a UOA.

Why are some oils different viscosities for the same weight of oil?
As previously discussed, an oilís hot viscosity must fall within certain limits at a specific temperature of 100 deg C in order to be classified as a 30wt oil, or a 40wt oil, and so forth. The above chart on oil viscosities shows the viscosity spread for each oil grade, and the following chart lists the specific limits for each grade of oil, as determined by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), known as J300 specs for oil weight:
Click the image to open in full size.
Looking at the charts, we see that a 30 weight oil must have a hot viscosity between 9.30 and 12.49 cSt @100 deg C. Some 30wt oils may be a ďthinĒ 30wt with a hot viscosity closer to 9.3 cSt, while some 30wt oils may be a ďthickĒ 30wt with a hot viscosity closer to 12.49 cSt, but any oil with a viscosity in that range will be a 30wt oil. As an example, one 5W-30 oil has a viscosity of 9.7 cSt @ 100 deg C, while another brand's 5W-30 has a viscosity of 12 cSt @ 100 deg C. Both oils are 30wt oils, but one is physically thicker (more viscous) than the other. This also means that a 0W oil like 0W-30 can be a thicker oil than a 5W or 10W-30 when hot, despite being a thinner oil when cold.

What does the HTHS score mean for oils?
If you look at the data for your oil on the manufacturerís website, you will probably notice an HTHS score along with the viscosity. The HTHS score is the oilís viscosity at 150 deg C and refers to the oilís ability to withstand ďHigh Temperature & High ShearĒ conditions. Remember that thicker oils have higher film strength, and therefore withstand higher pressures and temperatures better than thin oils. Since HTHS is a function of viscosity, higher weight oils have higher HTHS numbers, and are better suited for extreme uses such as FI or racing.

What does the Viscosity Index of an oil mean?
Manufacturerís usually list this value along with their viscosity measures. We have already seen that the working viscosity of an oil is measured at 100 deg C. An oilís viscosity is commonly measured at 40 deg C as well. This is not the temperature the winter (ďWĒ) weight of a multi-grade oil is measured at, it is simply considered the lower end of the oilís operating temperature. Since an oil thickens as it cools, itís important to make sure the oil doesnít become any thicker than itís weight allows at the cooler operating temperature. Itís also important to make sure that an oil operating at a lower temperature does not thin out to a lesser weight when it heats up. The ability of the oil to stay in itís grade across a broad range of operating temperatures is known as the oilís viscosity index. A higher viscosity index number means the oil better maintains itís weight and tends to be more stable across a broad range of temperatures.

What are viscosity index improvers or modifiers?
These are chemical additives (polymers) that increase an oilís viscosity with heat, to counter-act an oilís tendency to thin with heat. They are primarily responsible for the ability of some oils to achieve a multi-grade oil weight, and to maintain a high viscosity index. However, an oil cannot simply ďload upĒ on viscosity index improvers (VIIís) to create an oil with a high viscosity index, because VIIís are usually the first component to break down with heat and form sludge. When this happens, the oil will not stay in grade. There is a balance to the amount of VIIís that manufacturers can use and still keep their oil shear stable. Some oils can achieve a good vicosity index without using very many VIIís because they use high-end base stocks that are naturally very stable across a wide range of operating temperatures. The best way to determine if an oil is shear-prone from using too many VIIís to achieve the given grade is to have a UOA done.

What does a NOACK score mean?
Some manufacturers also report the NOACK scores as well. NOACK is an abbreviation for a test that determines an oilís susceptibility to burn-off, or volatility. Oils with low NOACK scores lose less of their properties to volatility, keep their original protective qualities longer, and keep oil consumption lower than oils with higher NOACK scores. It can also indicate the base stocks in the formulation because an oil with high-end base stocks will use less VIIís, and since VIIís are the first to break down and oxidize, an oil that can use less VIIís will have a lower NOACK score.

Does the used oilís color signal that itís breaking down with use(oxidizing)?
If your oil is dirty looking, then thatís probably a good thing, since it means that the detergents in your oil are doing their job. A detergent is an oil additive that does several things to make your oil look dirty, but help your engine stay protected. First, they help neutralize the acids which adhere to the inside of the engine and cause sludge and varnish build-up. Detergents also suspend the soot and dirt that contaminates the oil with use. Finally, detergents help remove any sludge or varnish that has already formed inside your engine. Your oilís color is not an indicator of how much it has sheared down and succumbed to soot or acids. Only a TBN (total base number) test will let you know if the oilís ability to fight acid build-up and contamination is compromised.

What is a TBN test and how do I find the TBN of my oil?
The Total Base Number (TBN) is a relative number that describes how much base there is in your oil relative to the amount of acids that have built up. Oils that have high TBN numbers are going to maintain performance longer in the face of oxidation and soot build-up, and therefore are better for long drain intervals. Since an oil that uses fewer VIIís has a greater ability to resist sludge and acid build-up from oxidation, higher end synthetic base stock oils tend to have higher TBN values and maintain their performance longer than other oils. The TBN of new oil is often reported on an oil manufacturerís data sheet for that particular oil. The TBN of used oil will be reported on a UOA if you elect to have a TBN test done. The UOA comparison charts have TBN values listed for those oils that had the test done. If you want to see if your oil is good for a longer drain interval, then contact one of the UOA labs and have a TBN test done on your sample.

How many miles should I drive before changing my oil?
If you want to stay in warranty, then follow Nissanís guidelines. If youíre outside of warranty, or donít care to follow Nissanís guidelines while youíre in warranty, then there are oils which have been shown to protect the VQ engine for long drain intervals (over 12k miles). Check the UOAs in this thread for oils with a high TBN value. However, if the car sees heavy track time or is FI, then shorter oil change intervals may be in order. Get a UOA to be sure.

Should I change my oil based on the time, or just the mileage?
As discussed, an oilís performance degrades with use. Over time, the base stocks succumb to oxidation from heat, which leads to contaminate byproducts, varnish, and corrosion wear. Moisture degrades the base stocks (hydrolysis) and draws additives from suspension (water washing). Contaminates become catalysts for reactions, and can contribute to acid production (sludge). The viscosity Index Improvers shear with use, and contribute to acid build-up and eventual base stock degradation. Even if you have low miles, but lots of time between oil changes, additives may fall out of suspension and moisture build-up will contaminate the oil. I personally don't usually go much longer than a year between oil changes, even with low mileage. A UOA will better inform you about when to change your oil by checking for additive depletion, a low TBN, and any moisture build-up.

What is an oilís base stock?
The base stock is the main component an oil is made of, before any additives are incorporated to achieve the final product. Which base stock is used determines how an oil is classified. The primary base stocks are divided into five classification groups for engine oils.

Last edited by Resolute; 03-20-2012 at 12:29 AM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2007, 06:59 PM   #4
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

What are Group 1 and Group 2 base stocks, and which oils use them?
These are the non-synthetic base oil groups. These base stocks are made from conventional crude oils that have been refined to a point where it meets the standards set by the American Petroleum Institute for engine oil. Some conventional G2 oils perform as well as some synthetic oils in UOA's because of the excellent additive packages used to fortify the base stock. Such oils are cheaper than synthetic oils and offer excellent engine protection. However, G2 oils typically cannot achieve the same viscosity spread as synthetics, such as an 0W-40 oil weight. They also cannot protect as well as synthetic oils when it comes to severe heat and stress conditions like racing or FI. Also, because they use a base stock that is not as refined as the higher grouped oils, they do not typically have the stability needed for the extended oil change intervals that synthetic oils can achieve. It is important to look at the UOA results of G2 oils and see which have performed well. The better performing G2 oils are a good buy for the owner who does not need an extended oil change interval, or participate in heavy track use.

What is a Group 3 base stock, and what oils use it?
These oils are made from either a severely processed crude oil or slack wax feedstock. We’ll look at each separately:
1. Severely processed crude oils are known as “hydroisomerized” or “hydroprocessed” oils. These oils have gone through an advanced distillation process to remove undesirable crude hydrocarbons (like wax) from the crude oil base stock. Since the oil has been so thoroughly distilled through chemical processes, and only the “best” hydrocarbons remain in the oil, it is considered a synthetic. “Hydrocracked” oils, as they are also commonly called, are the most popular Group 3 base stock. These oils must have a VI over 120 and tend to have NOACK scores 11% or higher for a standard 30 weight oil.
2. Slack Wax Feedstocks are the only Group 3 oils not made directly from crude. The most popular oils that I know of that use slack wax as a base oil are from Shell. Sometimes referred to as XHVI oils, Shell manufacturers a base oil from synthetic slack wax which matches most PAO (group4) oil characteristics.

I’ve heard of Group 3+ oils, what are they?
G3+ oils are actually oils made from the new series of GTL base stocks. GTL (Gas To Liquid) allows an oil to meet the qualities of most PAO base stocks for less money. They are new, and able to achieve 0W-xx grades for engine oils due to VI and cold pour point measures that match PAO base stocks. They are made from a form of hydrocarbon synthesis known as the Fischer Tropsch process. This process is how the first synthetic oils were created, and is used with an isomerization sequence to make a very stable and effective base stock. These should become more popular in the future.

What is a Group 4 base stock, what is a PAO, and what oils use it?
These are oils whose base stocks come from fully saturated hydrocarbons known as polyalphaolefins, or PAO’s. They are synthesized from ethylene gas, which is a byproduct of refined crude oil. PAO base stocks are prized for their flexibility in making oils with a large viscosity index that perform well over a long oil change interval and under high stress. PAO oils are more stable in the presence of water and moisture than Esters, have very low pour points, and excellent thermal stability. What makes a PAO good in these areas also makes it a poor solvent, so PAO’s must be blended with another base stock in order to dissolve the additives that are included in the oil. Many racing oils are some type of Group 4 oil, and typically also work very well for street driven cars that see track use or are running some type of forced induction. Group 4 30wt oils tend to have NOACK scores between 6% and 9%.

What is a Group 5 base stock, and what oils use it?
This group includes Esters, Alkylated Napthalene, cycloaliphatics, silicones, silahydrocarbons, polyalkylene glycols, perfluoroalkylpolyethers, polybutenes, and any other fluids that do not fit in Groups 1-4. Esters and Alkylated Napthalene are the two most common, and we’ll look at each separately:
1. Esters are an aromatic hydrocarbon group found in many fruits and vegetables. They are commonly used as flavoring agents in drinks, and for their smells in perfumes. Esters are defined by the presence of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms attached to the end of a hydrocarbon molecule. Since we have already seen by now that not all hydrocarbons perform the same (hence the whole need for Group classification), it can be assumed that not all Esters function the same in terms of engine oil. There are some 600 known Esters, and manufacturers have found that some Esters can be synthesized from natural resources and be very stable in extreme heat and stress, such as in a racing engine. Most Esters help swell and condition seals, and may be used as an additive in other oils for this reason. Esters also have a polar affinity to most metals, and this allows film strength under zero pressure. Some esters, such as polyolesters, are not hydrolytically stable and are not compatible with elastomer type seals. Most Ester based oils will have NOACK scores around 6% for a 30wt oil.
2. Alkylated Napthalene is a less common base stock. It is a synthesized aromatic hydrocarbon. The Alkyl group is introduced to Napthalene and forms a stable polycyclic structure that can be used to stabilize oxidation in the oil. It is usually not used as a base stock by itself, but as a Group 5 additive to other base stocks. Alkylated napthalene resists heat and oxidation better than mineral oil, PAO, or diester, is hydrolytically stable unlike polyolester, has good additive solvency, and is more elastomer compatible than esters. However, most napthanics don't have very high VI's.

Group 5 oils are the highest number base stock, why don’t they have the best UOA results?
Some Ester based oils perform worse than, or no better than, some oils using mostly Group 2 or 3 base stocks. One possible culprit is an Ester’s tendency for hydrolysis. As an oil is slowly degraded over time by oxidation, the result is more acids in the oil. These acids can break down the Ester into an alcohol and a carboxyl acid. This process is known as Ester Hydrolysis. Hydrolysis is also created by an introduction of water or moisture to the oil. It is not an issue when the engine is running hard for most of its oil change interval, such as in a racing series. This is because there is enough energy in the form of heat to catalyze the reverse reaction, that is, to re-create an Ester from the alcohol and carboxyl acid. For an oil that isn’t changed very often, unlike a racing engine, hydrolysis may be a factor. This is only one theory as to why Ester base stocks sometimes don’t perform better than other oils as seen from UOA’s. Another thought is included in this response from a tribologist in regards to a question of why Redline doesn’t do that well in UOA’s compared to other oils of “lesser” base stock:
Quote:
I have posted a lot on RL - I do not consider it the “last word” anymore. Esters of course are also susceptible to hydrolysis, which is an issue with cars not driven often. I think a lot of ester “hype” gets into the rL picture, and that the verbage used 20 years ago may not apply today. Plus, RL’s formulations are “old”, and while tried and true with lots of Ca and ZDDP, they do not post, as you pointed out, the numbers that indicate spectacular performance. I mean, esters should greatly reduce start-up wear due to their polar affinity, lubricity, film strength, etc. Yet, they are not much better (if at all) in wear reduction numbers than Chevron/Havoline. I think there is much going on at the nanotribologic level that may be being missed, and that new formulations from companies with deeper R&D pockets than RL may be on to these wear elements. So the amines and other “new age” additives may be more than just an answer to the reduction in “old school” AW’s like ZDDP. I thought differently as late as last year, but have amended my thoughts and statements to conform to proof - the UOA’s of the latest “thin”, min-based GF-4’s, for example.
As I said, there may well be something going on at the molecular level (nanotribologic) at the surface level of the metal - I just have not seen the science, and esters in engines are so tiny in the big picture that no one is doing the research. Esters are used in jets because of the temps involved - but that is exploited in RL advertising hype, IMO. But RL looks so good “on paper” - why would it not “kill” all the others? Most racing oils use some amount of ester, but that can be to offset seal performance issues of other synoil bases as much as to offer a performance benefit.
The subject of an ester’s performance as the "best" base stock for use in a street driven engine can be controversial, since there is no concrete answer. The fact is, there's just no one 'best' oil, and no single 'magic bullet' oil formulation. Lots of ester-based oils perform very well in the VQ35DE, and some do not. The additives and viscosity play a major role in engine oil performance as well, even more so than the base stock used. Therefore, don't judge an oil based solely on the base stock.

Last edited by Resolute; 03-20-2012 at 12:33 AM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2007, 10:59 AM   #5
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Is an ester base oil better for racing than daily driving?
My opinion is that high Ester oils are better as a race oil, than a street oil. The real advantage Ester synthetic oils have over other synthetics is shear stability in the face of extreme heat. That benefit is going to be realized best in racing, and since high ester base oils have to rely on the additive package to offset some of the negative aspects of the ester base oil, such as moisture stability and elastomer compatibility issues, the typical wear protection of a good PAO or G3 in start/stop, short trip, and cold start stress will lend itself best to a street engine. Therefore, I think the value of Ester base oils are best realized in turbo VQ engines that see heavy track use, since they are seeing higher temps, and therefore the most important value for them is an oil’s HTHS score and extreme heat stability. Esters tend to shine in these circumstances. I think for daily-driven 350Z’s, a high Ester oil is a waste of money and not doing any favors for the engine. Of course, as I have already mentioned, a UOA should be the judge over how well an oil performs in your engine for your conditions, not speculation on base stocks.

I’ve heard that some oils labeled as synthetic are not true synthetics. What is the official definition of “synthetic”?
First, synthetic oils are not 100% synthetic unless you are buying just the base oil, since synthetic oils still use additives, and sometimes, a carrier oil. PAO based synthetic oils are a good example of this. Since PAO's are saturated hydrocarbons, they make for very poor solvents, and are therefore lousy at suspending additives. So, a PAO based synthetic must use another oil, like a Group3 product or AN or ester, as a carrier to hold the additive pack in suspension. Despite this fact, many companies believed that only majority PAO or G5 based engine oils should be called "synthetic", while companies like Castrol (owned by British Petroleum) and Shell used severely hydrocracked base stocks (Group 3) way back in the seventies, and called them synthetics. The API made an official definition of what constituted a synthetic during SAE Technical Meeting on Engine Oils 1, and hydroprocessed lubes qualified. The definition is:
Quote:
“Oils produced by synthesis (chemical reaction) rather than by extraction or refinement.”
In 1992, controversy began when Castrol used Shell base stocks (Group3 XHVI) for their synthetic line. In 1999, competing oil companies complained to the National Ad Council of the Better Business Bureau that it was misleading for Castrol to label their G3 based oils as “synthetic”. However, based on the API definition, Castrol was not in any violation of fair advertising policy. Further, the definition of synthetic was left open by the Ad Council for each company to determine for their own product line. This means that a “synthetic” oil must meet the API definition of being a synthetic, but one company’s synthetic line may use a G3 base oil, while another company’s synthetic line of oils might be G4, G5, or a blend of the three- it’s up to the manufacturer to decide.

So what Group of oil is the best?
There is no single group that is the all-around best. Some perform under specific circumstances and in specific engines better than others. Check for oil samples that consistently perform well in the VQ, and then you will see a clearer picture of what works and what doesn’t. It can be helpful to know what the differences in each group are, so that when someone says, “That’s only a G3 oil”, or “I only use Group 5 oils”, you’ll know what they mean. You should also realize by now that one base stock does not guarantee a better oil. There is far more to it. The combination of proper viscosity, additives used, and the type of base stock are all different for each oil. In fact, many tribologists say the additive package of an oil contributes more to it’s performance than the base stock.

What additives are used in engine oils, and what do they do?
Engine oil additives are an important piece of the puzzle in understanding how one oil can do a better job protecting an engine than another oil. Most oils have about 10-20% of their formulation in additives. These additives are what make up an engine oil’s composition above the base stock used. A lot of tribologists attribute an engine oil’s additive package as more important in terms of performance than the base stock. Posted below is a list of the different additives and modifiers used in engine oils to achieve their respective traits. The list is taken straight from Molakule on BITOG with my own notes on what elements may show up in a UOA from each additive:

Antifoamants or foam inhibitors (Protective Additive): polymers such as silicone polymers and organic copolymers of the silaxane’s; these create a lens that reduces an air bubble’s surface tension. Some oils are high in silicon because of this additive.

Antioxidants or oxidation inhibitors (Protective Additive): ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, aromatic amines such as organic tolutriazoles, thiadiazoles, diphenylamines, olefin sulfides, carboxylic acids; decomposes peroxides and terminates free radical reactions. Increases temperature of base oil at which base oil may tend to oxidize. Oxidation of oil promotes sludge particles and increases viscosity. May show up as zinc, phosphorous, and moly on a UOA.

Anti-Wear and Extreme Pressure Additives (Surface Protective Additive):
ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, Organic Sulfur-Phosphorus-Nitrogen compounds, Borates and Borate Esters, Tricresyl Phosphates, amine phostphates, and other phosphate esters, Chlorine compounds, and lead diamylcarbamates, lead and barium naphthenates, sulfurized olefins; protective film interacts at various temperatures and pressures to provide either a plastic interface or to provide a compound which shears at the surface- protecting the metal. May show up as zinc, calcium, phosphorous, boron, and moly on a UOA.

Demulsifier (Performance Additive): hydroxyalkyl carboxylic esters, alkenlycarboxylic esters; keeps water separated from lubricant.

Detergents (Surface Protective Additive): metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium, magnesium, boron phenolates, phosphates and sulfonates such as alkylbenzene sulfonic acids, alkylphenol sulfides, alkylsalacyclic acids; Lift deposits from surfaces to keep them suspended. May show up as phosphorous, boron, calcium, and magnesium on a UOA.

Dispersants (Surface Protective Additive): Alkylsuccinimides, alkylsuccinic esters (alkenyl succinimides); chemical reaction with sludge and varnish precursors to keep them acid neutralized and to keep them soluble. Detergent-dispersants often are the same chemical or come in compounds to accomplish the combined function(s).

Emulsifiers (Protective Additive): Polyisobutylenesuccinimides, alkenylsuccinate ester/salts. polyester amides, alkyl aminoesters; promotes a stable emulsion or mixture of oil and water.

Friction Modifiers or Friction Reducers (Performance Additive): Organic fatty acids and amides, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters such as Tricresyl Phosphates, ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, family of diphenylamines and amides, and olefin sulfides. Reduces coefficient of friction formulated lubricant in the boundary lubrication regime. Some VII’s also provide friction reduction. May show up as phosphorous, boron, zinc, and moly on a UOA.

Metal Deactivator (Protective Additive): ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, family of diphenylamines and amides, and olefin sulfides, heterocyclic sulfur-nitrogen compounds; inhibits corrosive effects of oxygen with metals and decreases metal interaction with oxygen compounds to reduce oxidation of oil. May show up as phosphorous, zinc, and moly on a UOA.

Rust Inhibitor (Surface Protective Additive): Barium sulfonates, amine phosphates, phosphordithioates, sodium thizoles (for coolants),

Pour Point Depressant (Performance Additive): polymethacrylates (PMA’s); reducing wax crystal formation and increases solvency of oil at low temperatures. May be part of VII package.

Seal Swell (Performance Additive): nitriles, specific esters, organic phosphates and aromatic hydrocarbons. Increases volume of elastomeric seals. May show up as phosphorous on a UOA.

Surfactants or Surface Active Agents (Protective Additive): family of diphenylamines and amides; usually part of the antioxidant package. Also provides enhanced friction reduction and allows oils to “climb” or spread on and over surfaces. Decreases but does not destroy surface tension

Viscosity Index Improver or Viscosity Modifier (Performance Additive): Olefin copolymers (OCP’s), hydrogentated styrene-diene copolymers, styrene esters, polymetharylates (PMA’s), mixed alkyl methacrylate-vinyl-pyrrolidines, aminated ethylene propylene, mixed alkylmethacrylate ethylene/propylenes; reduces viscosity change with temperature. Increases viscosity of base oil as temperature rises when base oil tends to thin. Some VII’s may also act as dispersants by incorporating dispersant compounds.

Last edited by Resolute; 02-15-2009 at 09:13 PM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2007, 11:11 AM   #6
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Are there particular additives I should look for in an oil, or avoid?
Not really. Some people like to look for high amounts of Moly or Boron in an oil, but just like base stock alone doesn’t determine the ability of the oil to perform well in your engine, the use of certain additives won’t guarantee a great performing oil, either. It’s the overall chemistry and how well an oil’s components work together that determines how well an oil performs in your engine for your needs. Which oils have the right chemistry to work the best for you can only be determined with a UOA.

Is Moly bad for my engine, like the Amsoil sales pitch says?
No. Moly is one of many compounds used in engine and gear oils to reduce friction. Amsoil likes to quote that Molybdenum Disulfide is banned by Cummins for use in their engines because it’s a solid and will damage the engine, and since their oils don’t use Molybdenum Disulfide it’s better for your engine. While Amsoil does make a good product, their advertising is a bit misleading. First, all additives, not just Moly, are by definition a solid. Second, while Amsoil may not use Moly Disulfide, they have used other Molybdenum compounds in some of their oils. Ans while Cummins does in fact state:
Quote:
“There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage”....
Amsoil fails to mention how this statement from Cummins applies to the use of assembly lubes, and not engine oil. The fact is, there are a number of oils which use Moly as an additive, even in the form of Molybdenum Disulfide, which are API and manufacturer approved. Most compounds of Molybdenum, however; are some form of the compound Molybdenum Trialkyldithiocarbamate (MoTDC, as noted in the additive list under friction modifiers). MoTDC is used in almost every engine oil made (ironically this includes some Amsoil formulations) and just like Moly Disulfide is approved for use in Cummins engines, along with every other engine manufacturer, including Nissan.

Are bottles of engine oil addtives good for my engine?
Depends on whom you ask. I say usually not, but it depends on the product. Slick 50 and other products that use Teflon (PTFE) to reduce friction should be avoided. If you have any non-stick Teflon cooking pans, then you know you’re not supposed to use metal utensils with them, right? Well, your engine is mostly metal-on-metal contact, and that’s not the ideal environment for PTFE. Slick 50 and it’s cousins were sued some years ago for this issue, and DuPont (the company which first made and trademarked Teflon) came out and said that while it didn’t recommend PTFE in the engine, they had done no testing to show it was detrimental for use in an engine. So, Slick 50 and others have gone on selling it. I wouldn’t touch the stuff. Now, there are some products that are simply common additives used by oil blenders, like those in the additives list above, that are bottled in concentrated form. Valvoline SynPower Oil treatment is an example. It contains MoTDC, some Borate Esters, Antimony TDC, and a lot of other common extreme pressure and anti-wear additives. There have been some good results with people adding some of this (usually an ounce per quart of oil) to their favorite oil and improving their UOA wear results.

What sources do you have for all this information?
This post offers a general introduction to Used Oil Analysis and basic lubrication fundamentals, in order that the 350Z community be better prepared for making sense of all the hype and choices they have when it comes to engine oils. It is not meant to be conclusive or all-encompassing. There is much more to this study, and anyone wishing to expand their knowledge would benefit from exploring my sources:

SAE Technical Papers pertaining to Used Oil Analysis

SAE paper 2007-01-1990: compares UOA data from individual engines running in a fleet of Taxi cabs, where they are running two different oils in the same family of engines, then the engines are torn down for visual inspection in an effort to determine the effectiveness of oils high in ZDDP versus the Taxis that used oils low in ZDDP. The UOA data was collected from individual cars, just as what has been done here, and trends for one oil to perform better than another were seen. The individual numbers varied from each engine, but the delta (the change in wear metals from the low ZDDP oil to the high ZDDP oil) is what was considered. High ZDDP oil did have less engine wear in the UOA’s, and was confirmed when the engines were torn down for inspection.
SAE paper 932838: compares UOA data from two LS1 engines in an effort to establish synthetic versus mineral oil degradation based on oil change interval length. They looked for trends to see if a synthetic oil would reduce wear over conventional.
SAE paper 2001-01-1899: compares UOA data from Chrysler V6 engines to determine if newer grades of GF-3 oils (which saw a reduction in AW/FM additives) are capable of meeting the lubrication requirements for DOHC, high performance, fuel efficient engines. There was a pattern for one type of oil to do better than another.
SAE paper 2004-01-1963: UOA data collected in intervals from another fleet test, every vehicle having the same model of engine, and the UOA results are compared from the urban transport fleet’s reference model engine to determine the effectiveness of UOA data. This test was extensive, but the conclusions speak for themselves, “wear rate has been identified as a more valuable parameter for engine wear condition, as obtained by wear concentration measurements directly obtained from spectrometry.” The paper concludes that individual ppm UOA numbers and ferrography numbers are misleading, that the trends of engine wear from multiple UOA’s are what should be considered.
SAE paper 2005-01-3818: Another UOA comparison paper from a Taxi fleet service, where 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils are compared. Same thing, wear rate trends between the two are what is considered.
SAE paper 981448: this paper discusses UOA data being used for evaluating oil drain periods, similar to the GM test, only different oils weren’t compared. The UOA’s were found to be very useful in determining an engine’s wear rate with a particular oil and when that oil is best changed out.

Other SAE Technical Papers

SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2007-01-4133. The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2000-01-2030. Film-Forming Properties of Zinc-Based and Ashless Antiwear Additives.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2006-01-3439. API CJ-4: Diesel Oil Category for Both Legacy Engines and Low Emission Engines Using Disel Particulate Filters.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 770635. Anti-Wear Properties of Engine Oils - Effect of Oil Additives on Valve Train Wear.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 922301. Formulation Technology for Low Phosphorus Gasoline Engine Oils.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2006-01-3413. Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 932782. Influence of Engine Oil Viscosity on Piston Ring and Cam Face Wear.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2000-01-1913. Impact of Fuel and Oil Quality on Deposits, Wear and Emissions from a Light Duty Diesel Engine with High EGR
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2007-01-1966. API CJ-4: Diesel Oil Category for Pre-2007 Engines and New Low Emission Engines Using Cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation and Diesel Particulate Filters.
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 2006-32-0013. Development of Long-Life Oil for Gas Engines
SAE TECHNICAL PAPER SERIES 810330. Engine Oil and Bearing Wear

Links

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/5020
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...ubrication.htm
http://home.physics.wisc.edu/gilbert...ations/101.PDF
http://www.noria.com/dictionary/default.asp
http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrica...dge_menu.shtml
http://www.chevron.com/products/prod.../gf4_faq.shtml
http://www.ultracheminc.com/comp.htm
http://www.lubricantsuniversity.com/

Free Magazines

http://www.lngpublishing.com/ (Lubes N’ Greases Magazine)
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/default.asp (Machinery Lubrication Magazine by Noria)
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/ (Practicing Oil Analysis Magazine by Noria)

Last edited by Resolute; 02-15-2009 at 09:23 PM.
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 01:08 PM   #7
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Thanks to Gurgen PB for these, I'm adding the results to the averages so far:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Engine-4---7400mi.jpg (79.4 KB, 1234 views)
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 03:59 PM   #8
IP05G35
Registered User
 
Trader Score: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 61
Points: 1,973, Level: 26
Points: 1,973, Level: 26 Points: 1,973, Level: 26 Points: 1,973, Level: 26
Today's Activity: 0.8%
Today's Activity: 0.8% Today's Activity: 0.8% Today's Activity: 0.8%
Default

Is that Amsoil 5w-30 ASL or XL (group 3)?
IP05G35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 04:52 PM   #9
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Asl
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 07:24 AM   #10
4SHIZZIL
Registered User
 
4SHIZZIL's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (10)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NOVA, Richmond, DC, MD, St.L
Posts: 4,408
Points: 5,507, Level: 47
Points: 5,507, Level: 47 Points: 5,507, Level: 47 Points: 5,507, Level: 47
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Send a message via AIM to 4SHIZZIL Send a message via MSN to 4SHIZZIL Send a message via Yahoo to 4SHIZZIL
Default

I dont know how old this post is...but its by far the best unbiased presentaiton I have run upon.

Thanks for the hard work Resolute! I used some of your information to get my longblock replaced under warrantee...in my hate mail to INFINITI.

lol
__________________
20+psi Hills Garage Built Over-Clocked ECU with blower 557.7/455
4SHIZZIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 03:21 PM   #11
Mike Wazowski
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM

 
Mike Wazowski's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (113)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Diego 92111
Posts: 22,113
Points: 102,342, Level: 100
Points: 102,342, Level: 100 Points: 102,342, Level: 100 Points: 102,342, Level: 100
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

I will be testing out the Nippon Eneos 5W40 shortly and will post the results for everyone. Blackstone will be performing the analysis.

I will also post the results from Royal Purple 10w40
__________________
2004 Honda CBR 600RR current
2009 Suzuki DL650 V-Strom current
2009 Subaru WRX - current
2011 Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 current
1975 Datsun Fairlady Z RHD Project
2004.5 Nissan 350Z (gone, but not forgotten)
2008.5 Nissan Titan(Goodbye my monster truck)
Mike Wazowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 03:33 PM   #12
TheProfessional
Registered User
 
TheProfessional's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (14)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,780
Points: 3,364, Level: 36
Points: 3,364, Level: 36 Points: 3,364, Level: 36 Points: 3,364, Level: 36
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Send a message via ICQ to TheProfessional
Default I'm kind of with you but not..

The assumption is being made that each analysis is being made under the same conditions (same engine, driver, environment). The conclusion is based on this and without a uniform control it is at minimum, inconclusive.

The only way to conduct a proper analysis is to conduct the test under controlled conditions. Or as I have done, a running log of the oil.

Another assumption is the remaining TBN being "higher is good". The TBN is a measure of the oil's ability to "protect" the engine. If the TBN has remained high, how do you know that the properties of the oil that were to protect the engine have done so? It may be that this sample or the entire resevoir did not do its job in the engine and thus represented a high degree of TBN.

It would be my conclusion that if the TBN remained moderate to low, it had done its job in the engine by being utilized.

I have a running log of my oil analysis and preparing for my 3rd 5,000-7,500mi fluid swap this weekend. My oil summary link is in my signature.
__________________
'06 Silverstone - JWT Popcharger, Hotchkis TVS, H&R 25mm Trak Spacers, BFG KDW2, Valentine V1, Zenclosure
TheProfessional is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 03:43 PM   #13
Motormouth
Banned
 
Trader Score: (44)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: not here
Posts: 21,311
Default

I was confused as to what is better in the TBN as well;

are higher or lower numbers better?
Motormouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 05:04 PM   #14
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfessional
The assumption is being made that each analysis is being made under the same conditions (same engine, driver, environment).
There is no assumption being made. This post is a simple place to collect UOA's. A good average can be gathered on the most popular oils and weights. There are going to be differences between driving styles, engine, etc.. I will post a seperate data sheet when FI guys start posting their UOA's. Take the information as you want. As I said, the best way to see what works in your engine is to do a UOA for your engine and see patterns that develop. Some of these patterns are common to the VQ based on oil type and will come out in the averages posted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfessional
The conclusion is based on this and without a uniform control it is at minimum, inconclusive.
The conclusions are for each member to draw on their own, this is a post to post UOA data. My own interpretation of the data is presented. If you think it's inconclusive at minimum, then so be it. FWIW, I don't use any of the oils posted yet, my own UOA will be done in about a month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfessional
The only way to conduct a proper analysis is to conduct the test under controlled conditions. Or as I have done, a running log of the oil.
That's great. How many analysis have you had done? Post them here please. The test is done under controlled circumstances- in a lab. The sample is what varies, hence the importance of establishing an average, so post your UOA to contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfessional
Another assumption is the remaining TBN being "higher is good". The TBN is a measure of the oil's ability to "protect" the engine. If the TBN has remained high, how do you know that the properties of the oil that were to protect the engine have done so? It may be that this sample or the entire resevoir did not do its job in the engine and thus represented a high degree of TBN.

It would be my conclusion that if the TBN remained moderate to low, it had done its job in the engine by being utilized.

I have a running log of my oil analysis and preparing for my 3rd 5,000-7,500mi fluid swap this weekend. My oil summary link is in my signature.
If you want to assume a low to moderate TBN means the oil has done a good job of protecting the engine... ok. The measure of an oil's protection is found in the trace mineral content in the sample. The TBN simply reflects how much of the base stock had not succumbed to acid formation due to oxidation. The TBN number should not be low. If it is, then the oil has not done its job to prevent sludge build up. If you send your sample in to Blackstone, Dyson, whomever.. ask for a TAN (Total Acid Number) test as well, since that will show you a proper correlation between the TBN and acid levels as the base stock degrades over time. After two or three extened OCI's you'll see the correlation. Most labs will report the TBN and assume that is enough to show the degradation of base stock to acid from oxidation, but the TAN shows just how much acid there was. The Penzoil is a good example. It protected well as is shown by the mineral content average from three seperate engine UOA's. The TBN was low, and as advised by Blackstone on the UOA, the Oil Change Interval (OCI) should not be extended beyond 3k miles because of it. There was not much base stock left. Compared to the Virgin Oil level, it had degraded quite a bit, and would not be recommended for extended drains or high stress engines (like track cars) that will place an extra burden on the base stock formula.
Will
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 01:06 PM   #15
Mike Wazowski
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM

 
Mike Wazowski's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (113)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Diego 92111
Posts: 22,113
Points: 102,342, Level: 100
Points: 102,342, Level: 100 Points: 102,342, Level: 100 Points: 102,342, Level: 100
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

So have there been any UOAs from Built VQ35's running Turbos? I am curious to what the averages would be. I am sure the viscosity would be different and the minerals would probably be higher. Or an I wrong in assuming that?
__________________
2004 Honda CBR 600RR current
2009 Suzuki DL650 V-Strom current
2009 Subaru WRX - current
2011 Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 current
1975 Datsun Fairlady Z RHD Project
2004.5 Nissan 350Z (gone, but not forgotten)
2008.5 Nissan Titan(Goodbye my monster truck)
Mike Wazowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 01:32 PM   #16
Nexx
Registered User
 
Nexx's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (41)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,628
Points: 6,933, Level: 54
Points: 6,933, Level: 54 Points: 6,933, Level: 54 Points: 6,933, Level: 54
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

just picked up 6 quarts of Amsoil 5w40 "European Formula" for my supercharger install. i thought all their oil's were European.
__________________
Greddy, HKS, Volk, Haltech, Motordyne....
Nexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 02:15 PM   #17
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by USN HM 350Z
So have there been any UOAs from Built VQ35's running Turbos? I am curious to what the averages would be. I am sure the viscosity would be different and the minerals would probably be higher. Or an I wrong in assuming that?
Unfortunately, I have not been sent any UOA's from FI 350Z's. I think when you are done with your Eneos UOA, you will be the first. Based on the UOA's of highly modified STi's and DSM's on the BITOG forums, I predict FI VQ35's to have higher trace element contents from wear and probably lower viscosity readings from shear, just as you said. As soon as you post your UOA of the Eneos, I will attach a new comparison chart with just oils used on FI VQ's, so that some average results can come out. I think for the FI crowd, Ester based oils will probably fare the best- simply because the HTHS numbers are better and that's going to be the most important indicator of how well an oil withstands high temperatures. Especially for those who track the car. As I've said in another thread on motul oils, for the NA daily driver, ester based oils are not the best and a good PAO or G3+ will perform the best, and so far that's been the case.
Will
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 02:26 PM   #18
Resolute
Registered User
 
Resolute's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @7000 ft
Posts: 2,104
Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53 Points: 6,750, Level: 53
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexx
just picked up 6 quarts of Amsoil 5w40 "European Formula" for my supercharger install. i thought all their oil's were European.
Amsoil is an American company that uses nothing but PAO and PAO/Blend base stocks. The "European Formula" is a common designation to 5W-40 or 0W-40 oils that meet certain testing criteria. The business of oils have changed in the last ten years dramatically in that an OEM car manufacturer no longer has to pick from what grades are available, but can now tell oil companies what to make. It used to be just the American Petroleum Institute (API) gave a rating and the car companies used whichever one they wanted. Now, since EPA regs and mpg standards have been raised, the OEM's have a greater say in what oils they want in their car to meet these standards. The result has been almost a dozen new agencies created to test oils to meet certain manufacturer requirements. The "European Formula" oils like Quaker Advanced 5W-40 or M1 0W-40 are designed to meet the requirements set forth by companies like BMW and MB for higher stress, higher revving engines that must posses decent fuel economy standards and have good cold-start properties. These "European Formula" oils tend to be very thin 40wt oils, as compared to standard 40wt oils. As an example, a lot of people consider the M1 0W-40 a "thick" 30wt instead of a true 40wt. Myself included. The reason for creating a 40wt rating in place of just using a 30wt is because a 40wt will have greater film strength than a 30wt for high performance apps, but by making it on the thin side, it helps mpg ratings.
Will
Resolute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 05:23 PM   #19
Nexx
Registered User
 
Nexx's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (41)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,628
Points: 6,933, Level: 54
Points: 6,933, Level: 54 Points: 6,933, Level: 54 Points: 6,933, Level: 54
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute
Amsoil is an American company that uses nothing but PAO and PAO/Blend base stocks. The "European Formula" is a common designation to 5W-40 or 0W-40 oils that meet certain testing criteria. The business of oils have changed in the last ten years dramatically in that an OEM car manufacturer no longer has to pick from what grades are available, but can now tell oil companies what to make. It used to be just the American Petroleum Institute (API) gave a rating and the car companies used whichever one they wanted. Now, since EPA regs and mpg standards have been raised, the OEM's have a greater say in what oils they want in their car to meet these standards. The result has been almost a dozen new agencies created to test oils to meet certain manufacturer requirements. The "European Formula" oils like Quaker Advanced 5W-40 or M1 0W-40 are designed to meet the requirements set forth by companies like BMW and MB for higher stress, higher revving engines that must posses decent fuel economy standards and have good cold-start properties. These "European Formula" oils tend to be very thin 40wt oils, as compared to standard 40wt oils. As an example, a lot of people consider the M1 0W-40 a "thick" 30wt instead of a true 40wt. Myself included. The reason for creating a 40wt rating in place of just using a 30wt is because a 40wt will have greater film strength than a 30wt for high performance apps, but by making it on the thin side, it helps mpg ratings.
Will
ahh thanks for the explanation.
__________________
Greddy, HKS, Volk, Haltech, Motordyne....
Nexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2007, 07:58 AM   #20
Biochem7
Know it all
 
Biochem7's Avatar
 
Trader Score: (8)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 498
Points: 4,545, Level: 42
Points: 4,545, Level: 42 Points: 4,545, Level: 42 Points: 4,545, Level: 42
Today's Activity: 0%
Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0% Today's Activity: 0%
Default Castrol GTX in my 05 Z

Here's the report.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg oil analysis.JPG (288.7 KB, 1188 views)
__________________
Check out my homepage for professional photography in Austin, Texas. Contact me if you're looking for an apartment in Austin and receive a $100 check.
Biochem7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2007, 07:58 AM
MyG37
Infiniti G37




Paid Advertisement
 
 
 
Reply

Tags
350z, 40, analysis, chain, forum, horsepower, measured, microgreenfiltercom, multi, oil, quaker, results, state, temperature, timing, uoa, vq, weight



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

ADVERTISING
INSURANCE CENTER

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:28 PM.


Advertise on MY350Z.COM - Terms of Service - Privacy Statement - Jobs
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
Copyright ©2002 - 2008, MY350Z.COM All Rights Reserved.

Admin control Panel Backup