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Just watching 60 miniutes... what do you guys think? Should gunshows which don't conduct background checks exist? I don't see how this is a bad thing, and yet there's this gun saying that the loophole is a good thing (meaning anyone that walking in to a show, mental/felon/terrorist can buy a weapon, no questions asked). Discuss.
__________________ Gun Totin' Liberals: Left of Center But Always on Target
I like it just for the fact I am in California and gun laws are retarded here.
__________________ 2004 Honda CBR 600RR current 2009 Suzuki DL650 V-Strom current 2009 Subaru WRX - current 2011 Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 current 1975 Datsun Fairlady Z RHD Project 2004.5 Nissan 350Z (gone, but not forgotten) 2008.5 Nissan Titan(Goodbye my monster truck)
I thought they all had to do the govt form ? If I didn't want the govt looking into my weapons purchases I would just shop through my newspaper classifieds and buy used person to person.
First off, this is not really a loophole, it's the law.
Secondly, this "report" seemed like extreme leftist propaganda aimed at scaring citizens into supporting increased gun legislation, a gun ban, keeping guns off of college campuses....
Only FFL holders are required to fill out 4473's(federal background checks). It is perfectly legal for an individual citizen to sell firearms as if it were any other items. FFL holders at gun shows are required to fill-out 4473s on every firearm they sell. Anyone without an FFL can sell firearms without the need for a background check.
Does this “loophole” enable criminals to acquire firearms easier than if every gun sale required a 4473? Probably not. Criminals will get their weapons no matter what the law states. Increased gun legislation affects those who acquire firearms by legal means… Criminals steal guns from these people.
First off, this is not really a loophole, it's the law.
Secondly, this "report" seemed like extreme leftist propaganda aimed at scaring citizens into supporting increased gun legislation, a gun ban, keeping guns off of college campuses....
Only FFL holders are required to fill out 4473's(federal background checks). It is perfectly legal for an individual citizen to sell firearms as if it were any other items. FFL holders at gun shows are required to fill-out 4473s on every firearm they sell. Anyone without an FFL can sell firearms without the need for a background check.
Does this “loophole” enable criminals to acquire firearms easier than if every gun sale required a 4473? Probably not. Criminals will get their weapons no matter what the law states. Increased gun legislation affects those who acquire firearms by legal means… Criminals steal guns from these people.
You are correct...had this discussion at the dinner table tonight with family members.
Lets not forget that California has closed, this "loop-hole" over 11 years ago. And we all know Californian BGs hardly find it hard to get a weapon, nor has Cail shown any substantial decrease in Crime.
In fact the NRA did a study(Jan 2009), using California(highest restriction) and Texas(among the very lowest) in regard to gun laws or supposed "loop-hole". Despite Texas's limited gun laws, and averaging around 1100 more gun shows per year, they still sport a crime record far lower then California in regards to illegal weapon and gun usage in crime.
On that note, I proud to say Texas has just recently allowed for more relaxation of gun laws, and too soon likely to pass College campus carry.
I don't think there should be background checks. There was far less gun crime when there were no such checks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low J.
It's already illegal to sell guns to a "kid" so if they didn't check his ID, they broke the law in any of our 50 states. Gun shows are one of the few places where you can actually buy guns without all the headache.....I wish there were more of them. At least I'm glad I'm in one of the states without one of those waiting periods......and wow, people aren't going on killing sprees....imagine that.
So, I guess kids should be able to have/buy weapons also? I mean why not, considering all the school shootings? , I would much rather a 16 yr old responsible kid have a ak-47 in the back of his car at school than a bi-polar wierdo...
end sarcasm...
__________________ Gun Totin' Liberals: Left of Center But Always on Target
what was the quote Janus said (unrelated to this idea)... create laws for the harm they can do, not the good. yeah. gun shows have an immesurable downside and **** for upside. it obviously attracts the wrong type of people and makes the environment more conductive for behavior like this to occurs.
Lets not forget that California has closed, this "loop-hole" over 11 years ago. And we all know Californian BGs hardly find it hard to get a weapon, nor has Cail shown any substantial decrease in Crime.
In fact the NRA did a study(Jan 2009), using California(highest restriction) and Texas(among the very lowest) in regard to gun laws or supposed "loop-hole". Despite Texas's limited gun laws, and averaging around 1100 more gun shows per year, they still sport a crime record far lower then California in regards to illegal weapon and gun usage in crime.
On that note, I proud to say Texas has just recently allowed for more relaxation of gun laws, and too soon likely to pass College campus carry.
Texas is getting a lot of new refuges. Some just because of gun laws, other because Texas economy is the most stable, and we have a fast growing tech, entertainment, and medical sector.
Really everything is better here-minus the weather.
Nowhere did I say we shouldn't have gun laws nor did I say it would be a good idea to sell them to kids....in fact I said just the opposite about 2 posts ago in this thread. Also there would be less dead kids in these schools if there was an armed teacher who was allowed to take out these murdering insane people.
Well, please be kind enough to explain how, in the absense of background checks, a gun law would have any revelence?
Yeah, lets have an armed teacher in the classrooms... teachers are already scared of their students as it is, so let give them guns!
__________________ Gun Totin' Liberals: Left of Center But Always on Target
First off, this is not really a loophole, it's the law.
Secondly, this "report" seemed like extreme leftist propaganda aimed at scaring citizens into supporting increased gun legislation, a gun ban, keeping guns off of college campuses....
Only FFL holders are required to fill out 4473's(federal background checks). It is perfectly legal for an individual citizen to sell firearms as if it were any other items. FFL holders at gun shows are required to fill-out 4473s on every firearm they sell. Anyone without an FFL can sell firearms without the need for a background check.
Does this “loophole” enable criminals to acquire firearms easier than if every gun sale required a 4473? Probably not. Criminals will get their weapons no matter what the law states. Increased gun legislation affects those who acquire firearms by legal means… Criminals steal guns from these people.
I thought that for a long time also, but such is not the case...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBS
Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.
In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.
The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.
According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."
The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.
Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.
While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."
You anti gunners can never use logic and instead use sensation and feelings to inject your thoughts that you pass off as the only way and no other way option.
FBI crime statistics don't lie. Most studies back each other up in their findings...the more lax the gun laws, the less violent crimes there are. Not to mention pick any one of the shall issue CCW states and they'll have lower violent crimes than any of the heavily regulated states.
Also...since I work in downtown Chicago and carry every day....I'll just say this...while pretty much every gun known to man is banned in Cook County/Chicago municipal area, how come for pretty much the whole part of 2008 Chicago led the nation in homicides? Oh and don't get me started on the 40+ CPS (Chicago Public School) students who have died from gun shot wounds since the start of 2009....
But ya...keep pressing that anti gun agenda...b/c it works (extreme sarcasm w/ that line)
Cops aren't gonna be there to prevent or deter crimes...as it's shown time and time again. Shootings happen in split seconds...cops these days are mainly reactive and not proactive. I'll keep my pistol on my side in case of a situation where I may need it...and let fill in the cops once they arrive and the situation has ended.
So what do LEO's serve...and what do they protect? They serve the city's laws, they protect the evidence after the crime has been committed. Ban cars...they kill more people each day than guns. Don't illegals also kill more people than guns every day? FBI statistics has all this for you nay sayers....
ETA: Oh how could I forget our beloved nation's capital...Washington D.C.?!?!?!?! Damn...how was crime working out for them w/ their total ban? Or England...or Austraila!?!?! Facts don't lie....anti gunners do.
People shouldn't be required to buy car insurance. That is a scam perpetrated by insurance execs with friends in politics.
I have two friends with family in Puerto Rico where insurance isn't required and they would both disagree with you. Try owning a nice car down there...
__________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. -Proverbs 27:6
I have two friends with family in Puerto Rico where insurance isn't required and they would both disagree with you. Try owning a nice car down there...
****...it ain't much better in America w/ all the illegals and thugs cruising w/ no insurance. Chicago really sucks ass and it's so bad they're trying to put up frickin stop light style cameras that can read plates and determine if you have insurance or not....
BTW kutnupe...I like you, I really do, but you lost all credibility if you're going to quote PBS and what the ATF says.....the ATF needs to be disbanded. It's a rogue agency as it is, making laws and bending the already set in place laws as it sees fit. Plenty of documentation to support this if you need it....
Gunshow Loophole
Discuss.
, I would much rather a 16 yr old responsible kid have a ak-47 in the back of his car at school than a bi-polar wierdo... 
