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Old 12-30-2011, 05:08 AM   #41
Z_HighSpeed
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I hear ya. But it's hard to "unlearn" what I've been fed (usually through media). However, I do NOT believe that a .45 round will throw a person back 15 feet upon impact or blow up large chunks of body parts. Quite the opposite, in fact, in this scenario. I believe the .45 ACP won't be as effective.

Admittedly, I'm just like everyone else who hasn't had any hard/real experience, and I just regurgitate what I see and read (sorry...but that's the human condition). That's my realization. But it's hard to erase the image of an AK round knocking down a steel target when a 5.56 hardly moved it. And then the 6.8 SPC punched it down. So although I'm trying to delete the significance of "knock down force", I see the physics...and I believe it.

Practically, this kind of difference might be meaningless, and I think that's what you're getting at.

Tactics and training change everything, and I understand that. So, as you said, a .22 can be deadly and effective if employed properly, and an RPG might be useless. I'm going to have to rethink a couple of real-world applications, then.
I will explain the facts behind my statement.

Do not just unlearn, but completely remove those ideas in your head. The term is cognitive dissonance. You literally are going to "dumbfounded" when something occurs and the result of that action is not in line with what you believe or have been fed (by whoever) to believe. I have seen people shot multiple times, close range to urban distance with everything from .22 to .45 to 7.62x39 and even 30.06. I used to think this way because I did not know better, the first or second time when I observed someone not dead from 6X 7.62x39 to the chest from a distance of less than 20ft, wearing only a t-shirt I stood there looking at him and it took me a second. I saved his life and saw him just 4 months back. You may be thinking "wtf? how is that possible!!" believe it, and not just that but understand that there are simply too many factors to calculate how a certain round will work on a certain person in a specific situation. I have seen people survive .357 head-shots, shotgun slugs to the chest, amongst other things. Training is #1 and will be #1 always. You need to do as much research, watch as many gore filled real life shooting incidents and then think about how you will react in each one of those situations being everyone from the guy getting shot to an innocent bystander to the passenger of the guy who is shooting the "good guy." I know it is a lot to wrap your head around and it takes people a while to understand what actually happens in reality and not this made up concept of "action" which the media and Hollywood provide for us.

Take it one step further still, there have been statistics provided by various law enforcement training agencies as well as the FBI on deadly force encounters by law enforcement involving firearms. These studies have shown that once a LEO has been subjected to force on force they are more likely to not only hit what/who they are shooting at but survive an encounter because they have "been through it already." While some of the studies are a bit dated it stands to reason that if a person is subjected to a type of situation that will cause them to break all forms of previous concepts - breaking their cognitive chain - and forcing them to learn what will actually happen during a real life gun fight and not just a you shooting the paper type of situation.

Again, this is not something I expect someone to read and go "hey, I get it!" You need to take steps to understanding this before you want to be tested in real life. The reason why training is so important is because you can make mistakes in training that you can correct, in real life a mistake may mean you or someone innocent are dead or dying.

Just another quick add-on since I am on the topic of training. If/when you are training dive into the mindset/mentality that you cannot die or lose, ever. If an instructor or trainer tells you "you are dead." Laugh at him. You never die in training, because you are training to survive everything and anything thrown your way and that is how you need to approach every single training opportunity.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:49 AM   #42
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I would look up case law in your state and see if anything comes close to this type of situation.

Even though its just my opinion, I am not going to worry about my neighbor if I have to shoot at a bad guy in my home. Who is to say that neighbor would not be killed by that bad guy once I am dead?
We have shootings down here like any larger city and the LEO's despite some pretty long training times compared to other parts of the country can/do miss quite a bit when shooting (certainly is the case with civilians).

In the shootings that we've had, I can't recall anyone catching a stray bullet. In a home/self defense type shootout.

This is one of the most televised shootouts we've had down here and would probably be most applicable for a bystander to be shot. Well populated area, actually on a well used roadway. A bunch of cars, but no one was shot.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/b...l?id=119887979

Unfortunately I think when someone does catch a stray in a self defense situation, that's when this will be tested in court as it will probably be the first case in Hawaii.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:31 PM   #43
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I've shot the Kel-Tec PLR16, the first thing you notice is how awkward it is to hold. Very different from a handgun. It sways much more and aiming at a distance is a PITA. You may get the first round through but by the 3rd you can forget about it. The second thing is that its loud, I mean extremely loud. You will probably scare the sh*t out of whoever is within a square mile around you. Its a fun gun to shoot but I wouldn't trust myself in a life threatening situation with something that is hard to control.
Personally, I think a 12 G is perfect. I have low recoil police rounds for HD. Even with armor, they are gonna be on their *** or running out of your house. I honestly don't think anyone can survive a 12 G in a CQB environment with a couple of 00 or a buck shot. Though I don't have any experience shooting someone in my house with a shotgun.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:44 PM   #44
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Don't forget....

Common body armor doesn't cover every part of the body. You or your combatant will have an exposed head, arms, legs, and groin.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:55 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
Personally, I think a 12 G is perfect. I have low recoil police rounds for HD. Even with armor, they are gonna be on their *** or running out of your house. I honestly don't think anyone can survive a 12 G in a CQB environment with a couple of 00 or a buck shot. Though I don't have any experience shooting someone in my house with a shotgun.
That's good information/advice!

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Don't forget....

Common body armor doesn't cover every part of the body. You or your combatant will have an exposed head, arms, legs, and groin.
So, double-aught it is...

To strike a headshot or extremity is less likely with a slug than with shot, I'm thinking...but it appears as if the single mom in Oklahoma shot her intruder in the side of the head with a slug (recently in the news, someone correct me if I'm wrong about the ammo type? ). If so, she must have had a lot of experience with her firearm.

Edit: although at CQB distances, this might not matter at all...
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:10 AM   #46
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Lol...

I will tell you from experience that CQB shooting you will aim for the biggest part of the body, especially when you have less than a second to figure out if you are shooting.

I like the shotgun idea simply because armor or not a slug or 00 to the chest area sucks.
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:32 AM   #47
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.50


U mad armor?
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:44 AM   #48
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.50


U mad armor?
Troll post is trollish.

If .50 was so good why is every spec ops unit on the planet not using it cqb?
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:53 AM   #49
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What I'm getting at, is that if you're on the defensive and not the offensive in a CQB situation, and you're lying in wait in a choke point, ambush point, or the blind spot of a doorway, and your attacker comes through the door, wearing body armor, there's a good chance he's going to be exposing the area under his arms and the side of his chest where there is no protection. That'd be a good place to aim. There's sadly to many stories out there of Police Officers who were killed while on the offensive because of that weak point in body armor. Even though it seems disrespectful to say this and it's not intended that way, but take the advice of those who killed them because if you have to go for that weak spot to get the kill, go for it.

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If .50 was so good why is every spec ops unit on the planet not using it cqb?
Because rounds like the .50 Action Express and .50 Beowulf are prohibitively expensive and they are basically like slugs in a shotgun. I'm not sure a weapon like the Desert Eagle in .50AE would be a practical CQB weapon. And real life isn't Call of Duty. You aren't going to run around a house with a Barrett M82 or 107 in .50BMG with a heartbeat detector and shoot from the hip.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:02 AM   #50
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Troll post is trollish.

If .50 was so good why is every spec ops unit on the planet not using it cqb?
Cause noone has figured out how to make a Kriss-h that shoots .50s
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:07 AM   #51
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What I'm getting at, is that if you're on the defensive and not the offensive in a CQB situation, and you're lying in wait in a choke point, ambush point, or the blind spot of a doorway, and your attacker comes through the door, wearing body armor, there's a good chance he's going to be exposing the area under his arms and the side of his chest where there is no protection. That'd be a good place to aim. There's sadly to many stories out there of Police Officers who were killed while on the offensive because of that weak point in body armor. Even though it seems disrespectful to say this and it's not intended that way, but take the advice of those who killed them because if you have to go for that weak spot to get the kill, go for it.

Yeah I agree, armor is designed to aid a direct frontal or rear attack.
Remember Everything has a weakness, if they invent Mithryl gundam vests, the terrorists win.

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Because rounds like the .50 Action Express and .50 Beowulf are prohibitively expensive and they are basically like slugs in a shotgun. I'm not sure a weapon like the Desert Eagle in .50AE would be a practical CQB weapon. And real life isn't Call of Duty. You aren't going to run around a house with a Barrett M82 or 107 in .50BMG with a heartbeat detector and shoot from the hip.

Aim for the head no vest there
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:19 AM   #52
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Aim for the head no vest there
And if you do that, you'll most likely go down first. Aim center of mass. An incapacitating hit means you're giving yourself time for a follow-up shot. Even then the recoil from a follow up can draw the weapon nearer to the exposed neck or head, but unlikely.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:25 AM   #53
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And if you do that, you'll most likely go down first. Aim center of mass. An incapacitating hit means you're giving yourself time for a follow-up shot. Even then the recoil from a follow up can draw the weapon nearer to the exposed neck or head, but unlikely.
and you sir miss the gist
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:46 AM   #54
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Personally I would take a look into a handgun chambered in .357 sig. It's a mean round, has remarkable penetration characteristics, delivers quite a lot of energy on target, and can punch through a light vest (sans-plates)
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:49 AM   #55
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Personally I would take a look into a handgun chambered in .357 sig. It's a mean round, has remarkable penetration characteristics, delivers quite a lot of energy on target, and can punch through a light vest (sans-plates)
or 10mm for HD
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:29 AM   #56
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or 10mm for HD
This may be trollish as I never hit this area of the forum... but I read this whole thread and as far as a handgun goes I think you're on the right track with 10mm.

Ohio's firearms laws are very... relaxed, and all of the HD freaks around here have been preaching 10mm for as long as I can remember.

Personally I think the 00 or a slug is going to give you the best stopping power with the least collateral damage. I am not a hunter but also keep a couple sabot'd slugs around. They have a shocking amount of brass and powder and even from my smooth bore are accurate enough.
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:03 AM   #57
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Claymore mines by all the house entrances and choke points.... Split 1 of the four away from the other three and take him out Chuck Norris style. LOL

No but seriously 4+ assailants, the score must've been pretty high, you can't split the contents of a simple smash and grab 4 ways unless you are dumb as **** in which case I doubt they'd have any tactical training.

A multi tier security is the only way to go. Alarm system, cameras at the entrances, panic button networked to the police. My bed rooms in my house all have reinforced solid doors rather than the pressboard it cuts down on sound and increases security. Being able to isolate oneself safely from intrusion is the next step after authorities.

The guns are defense only at this point. I would stay in a defensive posture secure in my room with 1 of three choices. But for me home defense is a ar15 sbr suppressed I keep it loaded with m855. It's light, has a bright tactical surefire flashlight, eotech sight, gem tech halo suppressor, and two loaded pmags with m855. I am a big proponent of sound control in a closed environment. Not wearing ear protection or eye protections in a startled state my defensive choice is stable and easy to shoot with little recoil. I can engage multiple assailants defeat most soft body armor, and to be honest it's very intimidating. From the defensive stance I have taken any shots I take in the designated kill box would be free from over penetration concerns they would fire off into the woods if it went through the others walls.

If someone wants to steal my crap from downstairs fine it's insured, but I should advanced enough warning to be prepared. I know it sounds goofy but practicing what you would do and creating a control scenario really puts me at ease. I have had to draw a weapon during a home invasion. Luckily never had to fire one. My plan protects me and my family, and it started with home design and continues in every facet of the scenario.
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:53 AM   #58
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Everything posted in this thread has to be applicable to your situation and trained. If you have small children, and wife who may or may not be on board lots of stuff to consider.

I have and will always say that good locks, deadbolts, security windows, adding motion lights and sensors on all points of entry, etc etc etc...

I have done penetration tests on homes for friends while they were sleeping (without the wives knowledge to make it sorta real) and after that they normally do a good job of getting on board with security.

If you think your setup is legit and good enough for betting your life on, give me a buzz if you are close I will pentest the chit out of it, force on force
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:55 AM   #59
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This may be trollish as I never hit this area of the forum... but I read this whole thread and as far as a handgun goes I think you're on the right track with 10mm.

Ohio's firearms laws are very... relaxed, and all of the HD freaks around here have been preaching 10mm for as long as I can remember.

Personally I think the 00 or a slug is going to give you the best stopping power with the least collateral damage. I am not a hunter but also keep a couple sabot'd slugs around. They have a shocking amount of brass and powder and even from my smooth bore are accurate enough.
Many people stay away from 10mm for the fact that its expensive and generally untested in terms of legality and HD. It is definitely an option but understand, anything you hit will have a bad day.

Shotguns and m4's seem to be the current flavor. Around here HD m4's may get you jammed up legally since a shotgun is more accepted by the masses...
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #60
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If my ar with hornady tap and 1911 with ranger t can't do the job I have no business trying.
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:20 AM
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