Alcohol/Methanol/Water Injection Q&A...
08-20-2007, 06:26 AM
#41
I have a Q-could be very silly but I honestly dont know the answer...
Nitrous and water/meth do they get along? I couldnt imagine spraying meth and a wet kit into the intake track of the motor, do they cause a negative reaction, or do they each do their jobs and not interfere with one another? Perhaps a DP kit is needed?
Nitrous and water/meth do they get along? I couldnt imagine spraying meth and a wet kit into the intake track of the motor, do they cause a negative reaction, or do they each do their jobs and not interfere with one another? Perhaps a DP kit is needed?
08-20-2007, 07:20 AM
#42
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they cause big big big big big problems when used together...
its called lots of great power, on my evo with a stock block I ran a 50shot and meth injection which got my car trapping 122 where as off both the car trapped 112...
its called lots of great power, on my evo with a stock block I ran a 50shot and meth injection which got my car trapping 122 where as off both the car trapped 112...
08-20-2007, 07:26 AM
#46
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08-20-2007, 07:56 AM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DMK
I am debating on whether to get this or not. I am planning on upgrading to the 2.87 pulley and with my list of mods, I should be over 400whp. With any type of injection, I know I have the ability to pull more power out of the motor and be just as safe as a lower hp tune. But, since 400+whp is already considered risky for a stock block, I don't think I would tune it for more power. Therefore, I would probably only run water/alky and not meth. Does a supercharged car really need injection? If I ran 100% meth, how much more power would I be able to get out of of it, if my stock tune was 400whp?
Also, there are several different combinations of fluid injection. Can someone list the pro's and con's of each?
Straight Water
Water / Alcohol
Alcohol / Meth
Straight Meth
Also, there are several different combinations of fluid injection. Can someone list the pro's and con's of each?
Straight Water
Water / Alcohol
Alcohol / Meth
Straight Meth
Water / Alcohol - Very popular and work's well. The mix doesn't have to be 50/50, people find that different ratios work best for their setup's.
Alcohol / Meth- Haven't seen much of this myself but if you're looking to get the most octane out of your mixture then run straight meth.
100% Meth- My fav, offer's the most octane advantages, alot of people have tryed mixture ratios with water but usually end up running straight meth. Meth is corrosive so you need to buy a kit specifically designed to run straight meth otherwise it will eat away at rubber, plastic and metal parts including your fuel pump.
The are virtually no con's with water/alky/meth injection, it's been used by the grand national community for two decades. Tuning on the ragged edge is not always recommended, you may end up pulling back as much as 15-20% of your pump gas because of injection. So I would recommend running a failsafe relay that will switch fuel maps in the case of low/no mixture or pump failure.
Aside from the octane benefits, using injection will keep your internals clean, there is no carbon build up when people take apart their engines.
08-20-2007, 08:45 AM
#52
yeah straight meth is corrosive and might be a pain in the *** to find a kit that won't die on you from using 100% meth. To me, that's the whole point of the kit - reliability. If the kit itself is suspect to fail because it can't run 100% meth, then someday it'll fail and you'll start knocking
also, straight meth is flamable. 50/50 water/meth isn't nearly as flamable
also, straight meth is flamable. 50/50 water/meth isn't nearly as flamable
08-20-2007, 12:57 PM
#54
Ok...
Starting this thread was a good idea... my intention was to do this a while back, just never got the time to do so.
However, there are a few points of misinformation posted that MUSt be addressed:
First of all..
Most kits out to day are NOT very good AT ALL! There have been some discussions in passing in some thread about WI and I have written about it from time to time...
The problem is that the water-to-fuel ratio MUST be well-controlled for a good setup. That means, that water injection (i.e. water flow) must be regulating with LOAD (e.g. MAP) AND RPM...jsut like fuel is. Using a simple pressure switch that turns on the water flow at a given boost level irrespective of RPM is like programming in a single injection futy cycle for a given boost levels regardless of rpm... would anyone do that?
That being said, the only two systems known to me on the market that allow full 3D mapping of water for boost and rpm are Aquamist and FJO. Yes they are more expensive, but IMO a must to a well-designed system. Aquamist 2c and 2s are good choices, and if you have a good standalone, only the 2C is required, as the Fcon/etc can have a programmable PWM output that would drive the solenoid or the HSV (Aquamist).
The first part is flat out wrong...sorry
Straight water is the BEST knock deterrant there is. Knock is definied as an uncontrolled combustion of the air/fuel mixture following ignition by a sparrkplug (as opposed to preignition, which is ignited by smth other than a spark plug, i.e. hotspots). So, it is primarily a thermal phenomenon. It is the high temperature of the air/fuel charge that is yet unburned that causes the acceleation of the combustion reaction.
Injection of water into the combustion chamber in liquid state does several things that make it so suitable for knock deterrrant and power gain purposes:
1) lowers temperatures siginificantly given it's high specific heat (4.184 J/g/deg C) as it itself heats up to normalize with the temperature of the surroundings (which comes down from it's original temeperatures)...heat is transferred from surroundings/air-fuel mixture to water. The specific heat of water is FAR greater than that of gasoline and methanol (2.22 and 2.55 J/g/C, respectively), specifically by 88.5% and 64.0%. This is why water is so much better than methanol or methanol/water mixture at deterring knock.
2) lowers the surrounding temperatures by virtue of it's very high latent heat... i.e. a lot of energy is required to carry out a phase transition from liquid to gaseous state. This energy comes out of the surroundings and the hot a/f mixture, lowering their temperature. Water's latent heat of vaporization is 2,272 J/g , while those of gasoline and methanol are 361 and 1,170 J/g, respectively (water is 529% and 94% better, respectively).
So, a PROPERLAY setup WI system does NOT need methanol...unless additinal knock suppression is needed. This is rarely the case, as a properly setup system can go all the way to 25-50% water-fuel ratio (though considerable elaboratio nis required for the very high end of that scale, like VERY good atomization etc...) Just know that everytime you add water you reduce the cooling cpacity of the mixture considerably.
Agreed.
Starting this thread was a good idea... my intention was to do this a while back, just never got the time to do so.
However, there are a few points of misinformation posted that MUSt be addressed:
First of all..
Originally Posted by Ultimate CC
to be completely honest, most kits out today are very good, hard to really buy a bad kit but that doesn't mean there isn't kits that are better bangs for your buck but aquamist certainly make great kits, im very biased to snow performance since I am a dealer for them but i have nothing against a aquamist if you have the money for one...
The problem is that the water-to-fuel ratio MUST be well-controlled for a good setup. That means, that water injection (i.e. water flow) must be regulating with LOAD (e.g. MAP) AND RPM...jsut like fuel is. Using a simple pressure switch that turns on the water flow at a given boost level irrespective of RPM is like programming in a single injection futy cycle for a given boost levels regardless of rpm... would anyone do that?
That being said, the only two systems known to me on the market that allow full 3D mapping of water for boost and rpm are Aquamist and FJO. Yes they are more expensive, but IMO a must to a well-designed system. Aquamist 2c and 2s are good choices, and if you have a good standalone, only the 2C is required, as the Fcon/etc can have a programmable PWM output that would drive the solenoid or the HSV (Aquamist).
Originally Posted by redlineryder
Straight Water- People spray pure H20 usually for cooling and not as a knock deterrent. You see this setup on stock boosted cars running more boost like the dsm's. The downside with spraying just H20 is you won't gain any octane.
...
100% Meth- My fav, offer's the most octane advantages, alot of people have tryed mixture ratios with water but usually end up running straight meth. Meth is corrosive so you need to buy a kit specifically designed to run straight meth otherwise it will eat away at rubber, plastic and metal parts including your fuel pump.
...
100% Meth- My fav, offer's the most octane advantages, alot of people have tryed mixture ratios with water but usually end up running straight meth. Meth is corrosive so you need to buy a kit specifically designed to run straight meth otherwise it will eat away at rubber, plastic and metal parts including your fuel pump.
Straight water is the BEST knock deterrant there is. Knock is definied as an uncontrolled combustion of the air/fuel mixture following ignition by a sparrkplug (as opposed to preignition, which is ignited by smth other than a spark plug, i.e. hotspots). So, it is primarily a thermal phenomenon. It is the high temperature of the air/fuel charge that is yet unburned that causes the acceleation of the combustion reaction.
Injection of water into the combustion chamber in liquid state does several things that make it so suitable for knock deterrrant and power gain purposes:
1) lowers temperatures siginificantly given it's high specific heat (4.184 J/g/deg C) as it itself heats up to normalize with the temperature of the surroundings (which comes down from it's original temeperatures)...heat is transferred from surroundings/air-fuel mixture to water. The specific heat of water is FAR greater than that of gasoline and methanol (2.22 and 2.55 J/g/C, respectively), specifically by 88.5% and 64.0%. This is why water is so much better than methanol or methanol/water mixture at deterring knock.
2) lowers the surrounding temperatures by virtue of it's very high latent heat... i.e. a lot of energy is required to carry out a phase transition from liquid to gaseous state. This energy comes out of the surroundings and the hot a/f mixture, lowering their temperature. Water's latent heat of vaporization is 2,272 J/g , while those of gasoline and methanol are 361 and 1,170 J/g, respectively (water is 529% and 94% better, respectively).
So, a PROPERLAY setup WI system does NOT need methanol...unless additinal knock suppression is needed. This is rarely the case, as a properly setup system can go all the way to 25-50% water-fuel ratio (though considerable elaboratio nis required for the very high end of that scale, like VERY good atomization etc...) Just know that everytime you add water you reduce the cooling cpacity of the mixture considerably.
Aside from the octane benefits, using injection will keep your internals clean, there is no carbon build up when people take apart their engines.
08-20-2007, 12:57 PM
#55
I will be doign an Aquamist 2c or FJO and program the WI very elaborately to get good results.
BTW... forgot to mention this earlier:
1) Full water will NOT affect the AFR, as no fuel is beign injected. However, it CAN affect the AFR indirectly if the timing is not tuned correctly, as it retards the PPP (peak pressure point), and if that happens to a large extent, the exisitng air/fuel mixture might not burn completely... unlikely but possible.
2) injection of pure water retards the PPP by a set number of degrees and raises the detonation threshold. Hence, timing adjustment is absolutely required.
3) Water slows down the first 1/3 of the reactions involved in combustion, while accelerating the latter 2/3's of the reaction. Hence, this makes water the PERFECt agent... slowing the combustion at/near TDC while speeding up the combustion, and hence the energy release BEFORE the exhaust valves open.
BTW... forgot to mention this earlier:
1) Full water will NOT affect the AFR, as no fuel is beign injected. However, it CAN affect the AFR indirectly if the timing is not tuned correctly, as it retards the PPP (peak pressure point), and if that happens to a large extent, the exisitng air/fuel mixture might not burn completely... unlikely but possible.
2) injection of pure water retards the PPP by a set number of degrees and raises the detonation threshold. Hence, timing adjustment is absolutely required.
3) Water slows down the first 1/3 of the reactions involved in combustion, while accelerating the latter 2/3's of the reaction. Hence, this makes water the PERFECt agent... slowing the combustion at/near TDC while speeding up the combustion, and hence the energy release BEFORE the exhaust valves open.
Last edited by GurgenPB; 08-20-2007 at 01:05 PM.
08-20-2007, 01:24 PM
#57
see, I've read both sides of the story and it always seems debated
the other side arguing that 50/50 mix of water/meth gives you the best of both worlds
They argue that methanol evaporates faster than water and mists the combustion chambers with the 107 octane fuel that methanol is rated at. That methanol will evaporate first, and then the water. The water may have more ultimate cooling ability, but takes just a hair longer before it evaporates. And that using a 50/50 mix is a more well rounded way to go. You have to make double sure that you seal any containers with straight meth because it can evaporate in open air overnight depending on how much there is
the other side arguing that 50/50 mix of water/meth gives you the best of both worlds
They argue that methanol evaporates faster than water and mists the combustion chambers with the 107 octane fuel that methanol is rated at. That methanol will evaporate first, and then the water. The water may have more ultimate cooling ability, but takes just a hair longer before it evaporates. And that using a 50/50 mix is a more well rounded way to go. You have to make double sure that you seal any containers with straight meth because it can evaporate in open air overnight depending on how much there is
08-20-2007, 02:37 PM
#58
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Gurgen is saying the Straight Water Injection is potentially better than 50/50 Water/Meth mix. I am wondering the same thing as sentry on why some people/companies state otherwise. In high-hp drag, most use straight Meth.
Does Meth actually give more power or not? Or can straight water achieve the same hp as meth/water mix with a better detonation threshold?
Does Meth actually give more power or not? Or can straight water achieve the same hp as meth/water mix with a better detonation threshold?
08-20-2007, 04:10 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every setup is different and you should try different ratios out. Using water cools the intake charge and burns the air/fuel mixture more effectively which does help avoid detonation. But this works to a point because if you want to run more boost and timing on pump gas then you'll need more octane.
i.e. 50/50 water/meth mix may work well for a 500whp conservative tune street car while you may see more benefits running straight meth to achieve 650whp+
It really does depend on the setup and needs of the engine. There are several 100% meth systems out there that have been used for sometime without issues. Alot of the evo guys are running 100% without issues, check out the forum they have some good heads there http://forums.evolutionm.net/forumdisplay.php?f=173
Also the progressive systems are not always needed nor desired, I know alot of the supra and grand national guys prefer to spray at a set rpm or psi.
i.e. 50/50 water/meth mix may work well for a 500whp conservative tune street car while you may see more benefits running straight meth to achieve 650whp+
It really does depend on the setup and needs of the engine. There are several 100% meth systems out there that have been used for sometime without issues. Alot of the evo guys are running 100% without issues, check out the forum they have some good heads there http://forums.evolutionm.net/forumdisplay.php?f=173
Also the progressive systems are not always needed nor desired, I know alot of the supra and grand national guys prefer to spray at a set rpm or psi.
08-20-2007, 04:21 PM
#60
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
for the people that suggest water injection over the need for meth are crazy, you run a much bigger chance of cylinder wash with water injection than meth which is the end of a lot of motors that run rich on injection...as for the need for 3d kits, its not always true, if you have a fast spooling car such as the srt4s, the evos and some other cars the boost pressure switches actually work great...if you have the extra money definitely go with a progressive kit but its not always neccessary...I can put money down that if you took a ride in an evo with a boost pressure switch vs a progressive you could not feel the difference...