Drewer

iTrader: (4)

In order to not completely hijack Sentry's vortech FAQ, I thought I'd post this here, since a LOT of FI guru's could probably help out. My quicky background: when I was 18, my dad and modded a 88 camaro ATI SC kit to fit on a Ford 4.9L I6. It was awesome. Now I drive an 03 G, (my first owned car) am an OG g35driver guy, and have finally decided to follow in Dad's footsteps of garage modding again. Last summer he installed an ATI kit on his 05 C6. I'll never be able to catch him unless I get a TT, but I'm more interested in a garage install (which is most of the fun for me) and bought a vortech tuner kit. In order to simplify the install AND make it more "user friendly" I was looking into options besides tapping the upper oil pan for the oil return. I've had some good discussion, but would like to open this topic up to any other.

First page of discussion, starting at post 89, for reference.

Not really. It's a single source "pump" (the oil sending unit) raising oil to a certain height, and then gravity fed from that height back to the oil pan. Maybe I'm over simplifying this?

It's not a closed loop, per se. With the upper pan tapped, I doubt there is standing oil that high in the pan. The return wouldn't have any viscous blockage, which is a plus. Using a tapped pan/pan spacer will create a much greater probability that the return line will be submerged in "standing" oil.

This may be the only real motivating factor to tapping the pan.

Here's my pros/cons list:
Tapping the upper pan per vortech's directions:
Pros:
only option if you don't have a spacer/APS type pan.
keeps 3 year warranty
possibly no "viscous blocking"?
cheap solution
Cons:
PITA to "fill in" if you ever have to return to stock.
"1 shot" at getting it right, or have potential oil leaks.

Tapped spacer or pan with turbo oil return lines:
Pros:
No need to drill upper pan.
Adds extra oil for potentially cooler running.
If the pan is dual tapped (like most TT oil pans) one tap can easily be used for an oil temp gauge
Since it's pre-tapped, less likely to ruin upper pan.
Cons:
costs more
potential "viscous blockage" if return is submerged, possibly restricting flow through the blower unit and potentially causing damage


Any one else have any inputs/suggestions?

Thanks!

taurran

iTrader: (18)

The higher the better, that's the basic rule.

Drewer

iTrader: (4)

Any reasoning why? Why are turbo oil return lines not tapped into the side of the upper pan then?

teh215

iTrader: (8)

Having seen this topic asked before and seeing the response, most people will say use the spacer. Having said that, AAM offered their spacer for the Vortech kit and I alerted them to the fact that Vortech does not recommend the spacer with their kit. AAM pulled the spacer for the Vortech kit due to possible warranty issues with Vortech...just something to consider.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

You already covered that in your thread above. You want the oil to drain by gravity with as little difficulty as possible. This means tapping it high above the oil level, and if possible, towards the front of the motor (which can't be done on our car). This is the proper and most efficient manner to tap an oil return.

The reason that some TT installs include a tapped oil pan or spacer is due to the lack of liability on the manufacturers part, and also because many of the kits have turbos that sit lower, and they tap the lower pan in order to assist in gravity draining the line.

If you're comfortable with doing the tap yourself, go ahead and do it. It's not that difficult to plug up if you ever take it out. If you're afraid you're going to mess it up, do a tapped lower pan/spacer. It's not optimal, and may cause issues in the LONG term, but so far we haven't seen any major problems caused specifically by a tapped lower.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

the irony is to drain by more gravity, the oil has to go higher up towards the upper pan in the first place.

what pushes the oil upward enough to make the oil come out? Because gravity is going to at first keep the oil from rising upward to even start to drain into the upper oil pan.
Something else must be pushing that oil out of the blower

.....could it be the pressure from the oil going into the blower from the start? Maybe that's what actually forces the oil down the oil lines

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Of course it does, but I'm not familiar with how the return line looks on a vortech unit. Speaking from a turbo perspective (on the turbonetics kit), gravity will assist in draining the bearing housing if routed properly. Even the slightest blockage could cause seal issues in the long term on a turbocharger. I'm not sure the extent of the importance of such for the Vortech centrifugal blower...

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

yeah, yet the risk of the oil sealing up due to heat is drastically less if even possible with the vortech since it spins 1/3 as fast with a drastically lower temp than a turbo.

I still think there's potential for problems, but because of the less severe heat, the vortech has a much higher threshold for a problem occuring with the oil staying in the blower a little extra longer

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

drewer, you misquoted me. When i said closed loop system, i mean if you tap the spacer and not the pan. Pipe leaves the pan, goes to the vortech and comes back down to the same pan. closed loop.

Im not saying it wont work. Im just saying that tapping the upper pan should work better and provide better cooling to the supercharger. You may actually see a rise in oil temps that way, but i bet youd see lower sc temps.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

why would someone change the vortech's pickup line point?

the issue is the drain point

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

^whats that in reference to

Drewer

iTrader: (4)

I think it would help if we could clarify the following:

1. If the pan is tapped higher up, will there be ANY blockage due to standing oil?

Second, it would help to determine how much of a role the oil sender plays. If it has an extremely high head pressure, it could theoretically pump the oil up to and down and out of the blower unit. I am assuming it is nothing more than a lifter, sending a split oil source to the blower, which is about the same height as the cam chamber/valve cover, so when the oil gets to the blower unit, is it forced to continue down the return path, or is it sloshing around and "trickling" down as implied by the term "gravity fed?"

If that is truly the case, then it would seem logical that lower the return point, the greater the vertical component of force imparted by gravity. (See g, vs g', vs g''). This would increase be limited to the point at which the return is blocked. Case in point, if you have a beer bong, and hold the hose and a shallow angle, you don't get as much beer flow as if it is held high above your head. . .

See the second half of my attachment.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

why would anyone want to pull oil from the lower pan and drain it to the lower pan? Just seems like extra work to figure out where to mount things and undo what Vortech already figured out

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

thats because you took the X part outta the force.

Gravity then acts more in the y direction because sin@ approaches 1. If you hold it out from your body and not as high, sin@ and cos@ are about equal and therfore the accelartion due to gravity is split amongst the two.

Seriously go blow in both ends of a straw at the same time, you wont create flow. If the hole for the return is in the same pan as the hole for the pickup, youll be blowing oil in both holes at the same time. That is unless theres a one way valve, baffle or difference in diameter.

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

exactly.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

I see your point. I for one would think that the higher return would still be better. This is still old school proven knowledge when it comes to building and designing turbo kits.

We may be putting too much thought into this. Like Sentry said, you should be ok either way with the supercharger.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

good point: is the oil being forced out the blower or is gravitiy its only source of outward flow?

I was initially assuming the oil was presurised and came out presurised and gravity was an auxilary way to help drain the oil, not the primary
but I really don't know.
I was thinking the blower became completely full of oil which would maintain outward pressure

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

ever been in a swimming pool? pressure builds as you go deeper. mind you were talking about inches but were also using a minute force to drain the oil back to the pan.

Gravity which induces a weight on a column of oil pushes against the gravity that is pushsing on the oil. Whichever force is larger will win, but how high should the oil in the tube be to overcome the pressure from the weight of the oil in the pan before it can circulate? And in that case, will it circulate in reverse?

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

still haven't gotten an answer why a lot of TT kits drain into the lower oil pan other than it's because the turbos are already sitting really low and gravity won't really help drain the oil into the upper oil pan

but somehow they make due, and the stakes are higher (hotter) with turbos


I heard some TT kits have oil pumps that pump the oil out of the turbos, but for instance I don't think the APS TT kit has exit oil pumps - I don't see them on their instructions online anyway

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

BTW slightly off subject, but how exactly does the ATI's self contained oil work? I mean, how does it manage to cool off if it's always stuck inside the blower? It only uses 4-6 ounces of non-filtered oil and somehow that apparently is enough to keep the blower happy even though that blower runs hotter than the vortech.

I know it has a pump that moves the oil along, but does I don't understand how the oil even cools off. You'd think the ATI's oil would get really hot really fast. They say they use some special synthetic oil meant for extreme heat. Anyway, just seems weird that such a small amount of oil works in a "more hostile" blower