My horsepower saga
11-18-2007, 04:18 PM
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My horsepower saga
As many of you know I started my built motor project last December. I did pretty much all of the work myself aside from building the actual motor. After lots of small delays and my general lazyness, the car was running in late June. I ran the car for about 2000 miles on my old proven unichip tune @ 10psi to break in the motor and work out any small issues. The car ran great and was just as quick on my new 9:1 compression built motor as it was on the stock motor. In late september I decided to install the UTEC and CJM stage 2 fuel system and Deatschwerks 750cc injectors and red actuator springs and finally tune the car for more boost.
To make a long story short after multiple tuning sessions on two different dynos and even on the street by Tuan at GRD and myself this is my best dyno pull @ 14psi. (any more boost makes more torque but the power falls off WORSE about 5500rpm)
Obviously I'm missing a good bit of power up top. And after LOTS of trouble shooting and talking with some other tuners I still am at a total loss as to what is wrong with my car.
Here's the basic rundown on my setup and tune.
Motor:
built unsleeved longblock
Eagle rods
Aries ED 9:1 pistons
1/2in ARP headstuds
HKS o-ring headgaskets
STOCK heads
STOCK cams
JWT valvesprings and retainers
STOCK lower and upper plenum
NGK copper one step colder plugs gapped to .028in
Compression tested between 152-156psi in all six cylinders
Boost+exhaust:
APS standard twin turbo kit with forge actuators (red springs)
Greddy Profec-S EBC
APS 3.5in downpipes
Greddy Evo TT exhaust (modified to have a 3in inlet to downpipes)
Fuel system and engine management:
CJM stage 2 return fuel system with walbro 255lph pump
Deatschwerks 750cc injectors
UTEC with map sensor
Defi D-series boost gauge
AEM UEGO wideband
Misc:
Carbonetic twin carbon clutch
DSS level 2 halfshafts
Tune info:
Boost - 14psi holds strong to redline
AFR - low 11s at peak torque and high 10s at redline (litle rich but not anything that is going to rob lots of power)
Ignition timing - 12 degrees of advance at peak torque ramping to 18 degrees of advance at redline (very agressive I've heard for 93 octane)
ZERO knock
I guess my question is has anyone had similar top end power issues @ 14psi and above with stock heads/cams and upper/lower plenum? Thats the last thing I can think of, but some people have told me that there are setups out there just like mine that make well over 500whp with ease.
Discuss
To make a long story short after multiple tuning sessions on two different dynos and even on the street by Tuan at GRD and myself this is my best dyno pull @ 14psi. (any more boost makes more torque but the power falls off WORSE about 5500rpm)
Obviously I'm missing a good bit of power up top. And after LOTS of trouble shooting and talking with some other tuners I still am at a total loss as to what is wrong with my car.
Here's the basic rundown on my setup and tune.
Motor:
built unsleeved longblock
Eagle rods
Aries ED 9:1 pistons
1/2in ARP headstuds
HKS o-ring headgaskets
STOCK heads
STOCK cams
JWT valvesprings and retainers
STOCK lower and upper plenum
NGK copper one step colder plugs gapped to .028in
Compression tested between 152-156psi in all six cylinders
Boost+exhaust:
APS standard twin turbo kit with forge actuators (red springs)
Greddy Profec-S EBC
APS 3.5in downpipes
Greddy Evo TT exhaust (modified to have a 3in inlet to downpipes)
Fuel system and engine management:
CJM stage 2 return fuel system with walbro 255lph pump
Deatschwerks 750cc injectors
UTEC with map sensor
Defi D-series boost gauge
AEM UEGO wideband
Misc:
Carbonetic twin carbon clutch
DSS level 2 halfshafts
Tune info:
Boost - 14psi holds strong to redline
AFR - low 11s at peak torque and high 10s at redline (litle rich but not anything that is going to rob lots of power)
Ignition timing - 12 degrees of advance at peak torque ramping to 18 degrees of advance at redline (very agressive I've heard for 93 octane)
ZERO knock
I guess my question is has anyone had similar top end power issues @ 14psi and above with stock heads/cams and upper/lower plenum? Thats the last thing I can think of, but some people have told me that there are setups out there just like mine that make well over 500whp with ease.
Discuss
Last edited by BriGuyMax; 11-19-2007 at 10:51 AM.
11-18-2007, 04:43 PM
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yeah man at 14psi you're missing a good amount of power, you should be ~550ish whp. Have you checked for boost leaks? What about a compression leak down test?
11-18-2007, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zridder19
Congrats man. Nice power
Did you even read the thread? Brian-props to you for doing your own work man. Like I told you before I hope you get everything figured out....just to see, could you post a dyno chart from a 15+psi run?
11-18-2007, 04:46 PM
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I think you know what you need by what you have in bold writing. I think the cams will do a lot for you, I have JWT C2 cams and it pulls all the way to redline and the plenum/plenum spacer as well.
11-18-2007, 04:47 PM
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Sounds kinda like what I'm going through, but of course it's on a turbo setup that is kind of unproven...
I dont see anything that could readily explain the problem. Haven't people made more power than that with stock cams?
I dont see anything that could readily explain the problem. Haven't people made more power than that with stock cams?
11-18-2007, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by diwun67
yeah man at 14psi you're missing a good amount of power, you should be ~550ish whp. Have you checked for boost leaks? What about a compression leak down test?
Yes. as stated boost holds steady to redline @ 14lbs and compression test was perfect.
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11-18-2007, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto
Did you even read the thread? Brian-props to you for doing your own work man. Like I told you before I hope you get everything figured out....just to see, could you post a dyno chart from a 15+psi run?
curve is all jagged and drops off worse than the 14 psi pull...but I guess it did technically make more power not like it should though...
11-18-2007, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BornSlippyZ
My hats of to you...nice torque/power curve!
I wish I had the time to attemp a job like that.
I wish I had the time to attemp a job like that.
So please READ the whole post before responding so we don't have tons of "great power man" clutter posts.
11-18-2007, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
we will be tuning chris's car this week with the same setup and will compare the graphs. we made 525 on 13 psi the last time around.
cams are very important, we have many cars on stock upper and lower plenums with 600 plus.
cams are very important, we have many cars on stock upper and lower plenums with 600 plus.
Doesn't chris have an upgraded plenum?
My theory is the combination of the lack of upgraded cams and plenum is what is killing me right now.
11-18-2007, 05:23 PM
#13
Chris has an APS IIRC
The more I think about it, we have seen many 500+whp Z's with stock cams and aftermarket spacers/upper plenums. And seen some with aftermarket cams and stock plenums also make power-but both stock? Cant think of any like that off the top of my head. Although spacers do help, I dont think guys with stock cams and plenum spacers/upper plenums have enough over you to be the attributing factor for the power bein down in your case-pretty stumped here.
Technically if your theory is correct adding a spacer or upper plenum would get you more power, or less drop off at higher rpm's, I dont think that alone would fix this issue.
edit-Brian i fyou have access to a welder or know somebody--->I have my original wleded Crawford plenum that cracked at Zdayz this year. Would take somebody who can weld 10 minutes to fix. I'll send it to you no cost of course for you to test out that part of the theory if you'd like. 10 min fixing a crack, + 30 min to swap and you'll be able to eliminate one of the 2 areas your suspicious of.
The more I think about it, we have seen many 500+whp Z's with stock cams and aftermarket spacers/upper plenums. And seen some with aftermarket cams and stock plenums also make power-but both stock? Cant think of any like that off the top of my head. Although spacers do help, I dont think guys with stock cams and plenum spacers/upper plenums have enough over you to be the attributing factor for the power bein down in your case-pretty stumped here.
Technically if your theory is correct adding a spacer or upper plenum would get you more power, or less drop off at higher rpm's, I dont think that alone would fix this issue.
edit-Brian i fyou have access to a welder or know somebody--->I have my original wleded Crawford plenum that cracked at Zdayz this year. Would take somebody who can weld 10 minutes to fix. I'll send it to you no cost of course for you to test out that part of the theory if you'd like. 10 min fixing a crack, + 30 min to swap and you'll be able to eliminate one of the 2 areas your suspicious of.
Last edited by Alberto; 11-18-2007 at 05:26 PM.
11-18-2007, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto
Did you even read the thread? Brian-props to you for doing your own work man. Like I told you before I hope you get everything figured out....just to see, could you post a dyno chart from a 15+psi run?
Sorry, my bad, Im drinking a bit, didnt read the whole thread, just saw almost500hp. Better than what I have.
11-18-2007, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr_pharmD
do u think the greddy exhaust is robbing u the hp/tq on the top end? Might want to run a open down pipe on the dyno and see if the hp/tq climbs til redline to see if that's the case.
Definitely not. I know of two other relatively local people who have made over 550rwhp with a Borla True Dual and an APS 2.5 inch dual.
11-18-2007, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianLG35C
Brian, sorry to see the problem with your power levels. Since we have a similar setup, how did your numbers look on GRD's dyno?
480rwhp on the dynapak at GRD