what ems do you prefer

[1ZweetZ]

Originally Posted by rcdash

You unsubscribed too quickly, I just found about the CPU architecture for this unit!



So I guessed wrong. It's a powerPC chip - the slowest clocked one I have ever heard of. But that increases reliability and it may be plenty fast enough for the car - so don't take that as a slam. Just to give you an idea Macs started out with PowerPCs in the several hundred Mhz range and I think they go as high as 2.5 Ghz now...

Ofcourse there is more to it, but if you can only process at 35mhz that will ultimately be your speed limit. You don't know the architecture of the ProEFI or Motec, and neither do I. So it doesn't really matter. Although Jason did mention something about having bench tested the Motec M880, the AEM, and the ProEFI, and while the Motec was significantly better than the AEM...it wasn't in the ball park with the ProEFI. So since he does know what he is doing...i'll take his word for it. Now, since you aren't REALLY interested in "letting the product speak for itself", let this thread take a useful course and listen to the people who ACTUALLY know and have experience with it, like Sound Performance (Who is probably one of the most reputable tuners in the country), and the customers who have them installed and running on daily drivers, like mrg1981, snyperz, and myself. We ALL are extremely happy with our vehicles since the ProEFI install, we are ALL very happy with the features, support, and price! Your attempts to derail ProEFI's forward motion is only doing a disservice to the Z/G community and the people who look to these forums for answers. People like you are the reason you won't get guys like Jason on here answering questions himself. You think I am a "nuthugger" because I am exited about a product that FINALLY does what aftermarket ECU's should have been doing 10 years ago, and wish to share my experiences so other people could learn from them. This has obviously been a huge waste of my time... I don't care what you think, and never have. I am just hoping that the rest of the people who just read these threads can look past your tunnel vision and see the truth. When the people that have more than earned their reputation in high performance are posting praises about how good a product is, you simply ignore it. Never mind the fact that both of these shops could EASILY sell ANY ECU to their customers. I have better things to do with my time than trying to share information with people who would rather just argue about something they have NO xperience with.

[RudeG_v2.0]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

Ofcourse there is more to it, but if you can only process at 35mhz that will ultimately be your speed limit. You don't know the architecture of the ProEFI or Motec, and neither do I. So it doesn't really matter. Although Jason did mention something about having bench tested the Motec M880, the AEM, and the ProEFI, and while the Motec was significantly better than the AEM...it wasn't in the ball park with the ProEFI. So since he does know what he is doing...i'll take his word for it. Now, since you aren't REALLY interested in "letting the product speak for itself", let this thread take a useful course and listen to the people who ACTUALLY know and have experience with it, like Sound Performance (Who is probably one of the most reputable tuners in the country), and the customers who have them installed and running on daily drivers, like mrg1981, snyperz, and myself. We ALL are extremely happy with our vehicles since the ProEFI install, we are ALL very happy with the features, support, and price! Your attempts to derail ProEFI's forward motion is only doing a disservice to the Z/G community and the people who look to these forums for answers. People like you are the reason you won't get guys like Jason on here answering questions himself. You think I am a "nuthugger" because I am exited about a product that FINALLY does what aftermarket ECU's should have been doing 10 years ago, and wish to share my experiences so other people could learn from them. This has obviously been a huge waste of my time... I don't care what you think, and never have. I am just hoping that the rest of the people who just read these threads can look past your tunnel vision and see the truth. When the people that have more than earned their reputation in high performance are posting praises about how good a product is, you simply ignore it. Never mind the fact that both of these shops could EASILY sell ANY ECU to their customers. I have better things to do with my time than trying to share information with people who would rather just argue about something they have NO xperience with.

^ That right there is the proof of Raj's bias. Apparently, this "physician" and the self appointed expert in this thread knows more about engine management systems and tuning than Sound Performance and Intense Motorsports combined. LMAO

[GTM]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

No...the tuner can NOT set up whatever failsafes you want. You can put in a fuel pressure compensation (if you go through and set it all up), you can even set it up to trigger a light under a certain pressure...this is true. You can NOT however set it up to ignore those tables and adjustments if the sensor fails open or shorted.... it will go to the bottom or top of that compensation table and sit...constantly adjusting the fuel comp or and triggering a light telling you that you are low on pressure. It is NOT a fail SAFE.

So...I went to their site...don't see anything that they are doig that the ProEFI isn't... They don't list their processor speed...so who knows if it is faster or not. Since motec is slower...i'll go ahead and assume that pactel is as well.

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

He pulled his own plugs, so he should have taken it to his tuner and had it checked out... he declined. If the sensor is bouncing around it within it's range, the computer doesn't know it's bad. The poor running condition certain lit the bulb on the dash...not sure about the one in his head!

So it doesn't know when a sensor fails, or isn't work properly? Like any other capable EMS?

[GTM]

Originally Posted by doug

at the risk of blowing my cover.. let me explain my last couple of posts..

if you actually know who i am.. i have an 03 Greddy Built TT.. if you have read my last couple 100 posts.. i have a 2007 Pearl White RSX Type S which stemmed from a joke in another thread.. if you noticed George@GTM played along and said my RSX-S beat his 500 whp G.. if you notice Jay, SlideFox and Jorge are also playing along.. i have been playfully baiting people to race my non-existent RSX-S for the past couple of days.. its just for fun man.. its not serious at all.. its just fun... few and far between when i make a serious post .. its a serious post.. and the veterans around here know that

WHAT!? That wasn't you in the white 07' Integra that night on PCH?

Say it isn't so...

[Z1 Performance]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

If the sensor is bouncing around it within it's range, the computer doesn't know it's bad

If the sensor is bouncing around within it's range, then there should be no running issues (which the user reported several, the plugs were just the one that stuck out to me the most) ....so what you said really makes no sense to me, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are talking about

Originally Posted by George@GTM

So it doesn't know when a sensor fails, or isn't work properly? Like any other capable EMS?

that was sorta the point of my question - well that, and the fact that the person mentioned the car was back and forth at the tuner for quite a while trying to diagnose the issue, and the issue went away when the utec was reinstalled. I'm just genuinely interested, as I will be at the point in the near future where an ecu upgrade might be on the table, but I sorta want to know what I'm getting myself into. It seems to be from sifting through the thread that those satisfied with the ecu are either in the geographic area of SP or to Intense. I'm just still really confused about it, but I guess I'll just keep my eyes open and hopefully the user base will increase in the future so we can see how it shakes out.

[1ZweetZ]

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance

If the sensor is bouncing around within it's range, then there should be no running issues (which the user reported several, the plugs were just the one that stuck out to me the most) ....so what you said really makes no sense to me, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are talking about



that was sorta the point of my question - well that, and the fact that the person mentioned the car was back and forth at the tuner for quite a while trying to diagnose the issue, and the issue went away when the utec was reinstalled. I'm just genuinely interested, as I will be at the point in the near future where an ecu upgrade might be on the table, but I sorta want to know what I'm getting myself into. It seems to be from sifting through the thread that those satisfied with the ecu are either in the geographic area of SP or to Intense. I'm just still really confused about it, but I guess I'll just keep my eyes open and hopefully the user base will increase in the future so we can see how it shakes out.

I'll break it down for you... if your Air inlet temperature sensor has a range of -40c to +145c, on open (broken wire or unplugged) would rest the input of that sensor at it's high range of 5v (above what the maximum range is), a short (pulled to ground) would rest that sensor at 0volts (below that range). If the sensor was "stuck" (not moving at all) the ecu determines this, and set's the sensor to it's default value. Since the air inlet temperature sensor is a resistive type sensor, when it is barely making a connection, the resistance goes up, making it "lie" to the ecu, but not cause a fault. Some other ecu's can detect when the sensor is open or shorted, but they can't detect when they are "stuck". I also know that Jason is in the process of adding a rate of change fault to the resistive sensor inputs so it can also detect this scenario. Basically one of these inputs should only be able to move at a maximum rate of 'x', so if the connection becomes erratic, it will fault the sensor as well.

[rb26ina240]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

Ofcourse there is more to it, but if you can only process at 35mhz that will ultimately be your speed limit. You don't know the architecture of the ProEFI or Motec, and neither do I. So it doesn't really matter. Although Jason did mention something about having bench tested the Motec M880, the AEM, and the ProEFI, and while the Motec was significantly better than the AEM...it wasn't in the ball park with the ProEFI. So since he does know what he is doing...i'll take his word for it. Now, since you aren't REALLY interested in "letting the product speak for itself", let this thread take a useful course and listen to the people who ACTUALLY know and have experience with it, like Sound Performance (Who is probably one of the most reputable tuners in the country), and the customers who have them installed and running on daily drivers, like mrg1981, snyperz, and myself. We ALL are extremely happy with our vehicles since the ProEFI install, we are ALL very happy with the features, support, and price! Your attempts to derail ProEFI's forward motion is only doing a disservice to the Z/G community and the people who look to these forums for answers. People like you are the reason you won't get guys like Jason on here answering questions himself. You think I am a "nuthugger" because I am exited about a product that FINALLY does what aftermarket ECU's should have been doing 10 years ago, and wish to share my experiences so other people could learn from them. This has obviously been a huge waste of my time... I don't care what you think, and never have. I am just hoping that the rest of the people who just read these threads can look past your tunnel vision and see the truth. When the people that have more than earned their reputation in high performance are posting praises about how good a product is, you simply ignore it. Never mind the fact that both of these shops could EASILY sell ANY ECU to their customers. I have better things to do with my time than trying to share information with people who would rather just argue about something they have NO xperience with.

so one could say if MoTec, haltec, hydra, hks, greddy ect were to use this mototron system it would be a software issue? what about consumers that need more than an ecu? dashes, displays, gps, telmetery?

[1ZweetZ]

Originally Posted by rb26ina240

so one could say if MoTec, haltec, hydra, hks, greddy ect were to use this mototron system it would be a software issue? what about consumers that need more than an ecu? dashes, displays, gps, telmetery?

Hardware is hardware, software is software. Having the hardware reliable is most of the battle obviously. Most systems are pretty bug free...even AEM... but when the hardware failes you... your done! As for consumers that want dashes, displays, gps, etc.... That's a question for ProEFI. They do offer a Can gage for display and minor changes to the calibration. It is my understanding that they are working on displays as well.

Remember the IM you sent me..." i was not talking about the box alone. i know more about this system than you will ever know. proefi was not the first to got to mototron he is about 6 years late in the game. as good as the results are so far he's got a lone road ahead of him. he has only scratch the surface." You obviously are a big fan...so I'm not sure why your trying to put speed bumps in the progress of ProEFI.

BTW, if you ask Jason, he is closer to about 8 to 10 years late in bringing this type of system to market! I'm pretty sure I have already passed your knowledge of this system...I have been spending a bit more time with Jason these days, and he has showed me some REALLY trick stuff.

[Z1 Performance]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

I'll break it down for you... if your Air inlet temperature sensor has a range of -40c to +145c, on open (broken wire or unplugged) would rest the input of that sensor at it's high range of 5v (above what the maximum range is), a short (pulled to ground) would rest that sensor at 0volts (below that range). If the sensor was "stuck" (not moving at all) the ecu determines this, and set's the sensor to it's default value. Since the air inlet temperature sensor is a resistive type sensor, when it is barely making a connection, the resistance goes up, making it "lie" to the ecu, but not cause a fault. Some other ecu's can detect when the sensor is open or shorted, but they can't detect when they are "stuck". I also know that Jason is in the process of adding a rate of change fault to the resistive sensor inputs so it can also detect this scenario. Basically one of these inputs should only be able to move at a maximum rate of 'x', so if the connection becomes erratic, it will fault the sensor as well.

right, gotcha there, and that makes sense. But, assuming the PEFI uses the stock MAF for air inlet temps, and so does the previously used utec, still doesn't make sense that the fault would be present when the PEFI is in the loop, vs when the utec is in control (make sense?). In other words...both are relying on that same sensor for data, so I guess I'm confused as to why it would cause such issues with one engine management but not with the other, unless something was at fault internally with the ecu (certainly possible), or the tuner missed or overlooked something (also possible). For example on my Electromotive, which I know alot of people will say is archaic (and in some ways it is, but I'll use it as an example anyway, since I've got 12years experience with it and its what I am most familiar with), you can choose to enable or disable any individual sensor you want. Want to run with 02 feedback - cool, you can do it. Want to run no 02 feedback - you can do that too. Same goes for knock, water temp, air inlet temp, etc. So assuming the PEFI has this same feature, and you know you're fouling plugs, shouldn't it sorta be a given to disable that sensor, or replace it with a fresh one to try to narrow down what the issue might be? At the end of the day, there are only a few things that can cause such an overly rich condition, and they should be relatively easy to identify. Hope that makes sense

Speaking of which, does the PEFI offer user definable knock parameters, and/oor does it rely on the stock knock sensor feedback?

[1ZweetZ]

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance

right, gotcha there, and that makes sense. But, assuming the PEFI uses the stock MAF for air inlet temps, and so does the previously used utec, still doesn't make sense that the fault would be present when the PEFI is in the loop, vs when the utec is in control (make sense?). In other words...both are relying on that same sensor for data, so I guess I'm confused as to why it would cause such issues with one engine management but not with the other, unless something was at fault internally with the ecu (certainly possible), or the tuner missed or overlooked something (also possible). For example on my Electromotive, which I know alot of people will say is archaic (and in some ways it is, but I'll use it as an example anyway, since I've got 12years experience with it and its what I am most familiar with), you can choose to enable or disable any individual sensor you want. Want to run with 02 feedback - cool, you can do it. Want to run no 02 feedback - you can do that too. Same goes for knock, water temp, air inlet temp, etc. So assuming the PEFI has this same feature, and you know you're fouling plugs, shouldn't it sorta be a given to disable that sensor, or replace it with a fresh one to try to narrow down what the issue might be? At the end of the day, there are only a few things that can cause such an overly rich condition, and they should be relatively easy to identify. Hope that makes sense

Speaking of which, does the PEFI offer user definable knock parameters, and/oor does it rely on the stock knock sensor feedback?

The funny thing about problems like this is that they can occur ant any time... the problem wasn't present the whole time it was at TurboTrix getting tuned, and for the first several days the customer had the car....so one has to assume the problem happened some time after he got his car back. Remember, this guy didn't get ahold of his tuner to let them know they had a problem, he apparently tried fixing it himself. So you would have to ask him what his diagnostic procedure was.

I don't have much experience with the knock control on the ProEFI (it is only available on the Pro128). However I did discuss it with Jason, and here is what I understand. The knock control is that of Factory style, meaning it has true FFT calculations and a dedicated processor specifically for this process. The ECU determines knock based on frequency (not noise as in the AEM). The only thing the tuner would adjust is how aggressive it handles knock with pulling timing and adding fuel. Hope that helps.

[thom000001]

Hey all I just wanted to throw my 2cents in now that I am running the PRO-efi 48box.

I have a low compression stock displacement Sound Performance twin turbo setup with a big return style fuel system (triple pumps).

My startups are flawless. need to crank maybe 1N2 second longer than stock.
Driveability is very impressive. There are no hesitations or bucking at all. This is all the more impressive when starting out in first with my grabby clutch wanting to bog the motor.
The compter seems to have no problems with any load at any rpm. like 60mph in 6th at 2000rpm and gassin it to pass someone. There is no hesitation at throttle tip-in or when getting off then right back on.
The car drives just like stock. and super smooth...just a lot faster

A lot of this is the computer yes. but a lot is my tuner Larry P from Sound Performance.
Thanks Larry and Chris and everyone at SP.

Tom

[IIQuickSilverII]

nice, hope we can see a video soon. Great job by sp!

[rcdash]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

Ofcourse there is more to it, but if you can only process at 35mhz that will ultimately be your speed limit. You don't know the architecture of the ProEFI or Motec, and neither do I. So it doesn't really matter. Although Jason did mention something about having bench tested the Motec M880, the AEM, and the ProEFI, and while the Motec was significantly better than the AEM...it wasn't in the ball park with the ProEFI. So since he does know what he is doing...i'll take his word for it. Now, since you aren't REALLY interested in "letting the product speak for itself", let this thread take a useful course and listen to the people who ACTUALLY know and have experience with it, like Sound Performance (Who is probably one of the most reputable tuners in the country), and the customers who have them installed and running on daily drivers, like mrg1981, snyperz, and myself. We ALL are extremely happy with our vehicles since the ProEFI install, we are ALL very happy with the features, support, and price! Your attempts to derail ProEFI's forward motion is only doing a disservice to the Z/G community and the people who look to these forums for answers. People like you are the reason you won't get guys like Jason on here answering questions himself. You think I am a "nuthugger" because I am exited about a product that FINALLY does what aftermarket ECU's should have been doing 10 years ago, and wish to share my experiences so other people could learn from them. This has obviously been a huge waste of my time... I don't care what you think, and never have. I am just hoping that the rest of the people who just read these threads can look past your tunnel vision and see the truth. When the people that have more than earned their reputation in high performance are posting praises about how good a product is, you simply ignore it. Never mind the fact that both of these shops could EASILY sell ANY ECU to their customers. I have better things to do with my time than trying to share information with people who would rather just argue about something they have NO xperience with.

1Zweetz and RudeG, how do you guys come up with this stuff? I'm not derailing the ProEFI. In fact I pointed out that it is based on the highly acclaimed PowerPC CPU architecture. You two are derailing the dissemination of good information on the ProEFI by regurgitating the marketing literature and drawing conclusions that are just not true. You can't accept that you may be wrong or that someone else may have something to add? And then you call me arrogant?

[rcdash]

Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0

^ That right there is the proof of Raj's bias. Apparently, this "physician" and the self appointed expert in this thread knows more about engine management systems and tuning than Sound Performance and Intense Motorsports combined. LMAO

Just remember you said it, not me.

Seriously, in no way did I comment negatively on the reputation of Intense or SP. I have a great deal of respect for their accomplishments and experience. It is wrong for you to insinuate otherwise.

[SoundPerformance]

Originally Posted by rcdash

Just remember you said it, not me.

Seriously, in no way did I comment negatively on the reputation of Intense or SP. I have a great deal of respect for their accomplishments and experience. It is wrong for you to insinuate otherwise.

No offense taken!!

[RudeG_v2.0]

Originally Posted by rcdash

Just remember you said it, not me.

Seriously, in no way did I comment negatively on the reputation of Intense or SP. I have a great deal of respect for their accomplishments and experience. It is wrong for you to insinuate otherwise.

The Spin Doctor is at it again! You continue to twist everything I post and I will call you on it every time.

I never said you made any negative comments directly to either Intense or SP. You know better. However, as 1ZweetZ pointed out:

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

When the people that have more than earned their reputation in high performance are posting praises about how good a product is, you simply ignore it.

You have not directly responded to Darren's last post or to the posts of SP that praise this engine management system. Instead, you have seemingly ignored their input in this thread while you continue your smug attempts at intellectual judo with the non vendors here who think as highly of the ProEFI as these two renowned and reputable shops do.

Why don't you do yourself and this thread a favor by limiting your further involvement in this thread to offering your input/praise on the EMS you prefer (and own), the Haltech.

[rcdash]

Ok, RudeG, I apologize to you in all sincerity if you feel I am reading too much into your posts. To me they came across as inflammatory. I don't know why you think a critical analysis of this platform will in any way harm it. Trust me, the more I learn about it, the better I understand what the market-speak is trying to convey. It does not mean it is perfect. It does not mean that there cannot be improvement. It does not mean we cannot question technical merits of one approach versus another.

I have used Matlab before and the software architecture upon which the Motohawk and Mototune software is constructed is fascinating to say the least. I have watched all of the instructional videos on the Mototune site and I have a pretty good idea what Jason is doing to add on functionality to the ProEFI. The burden for success or failure will rest with him. It sounds like he has great support from Intense and SP and I wish him the best of luck.

I did not respond to Darren's last post because it was thorough and enlightening. It was a great post. Is that ok?

I wish I knew as much about the other platform architectures as I now know about the ProEFI...

peace.

[r0mey]

Theres nothing really going on in this thread but useless banter. Some Im locking it down plus the question has been answered every which a way.