what ems do you prefer

[SlideFox]

Originally Posted by DanielW

I would prefer the haltech simply because its not lockable by the tuner. I think thats why the big shops are pushing the f-con so hard

That can be a good thing and a bad thing. With software that is not locked, you are going to get some idiot that thinks he knows how to tune, and is going to f*ck something up.

[IIQuickSilverII]

Originally Posted by DanielW

I would prefer the haltech simply because its not lockable by the tuner. I think thats why the big shops are pushing the f-con so hard

are you a tuner?

[DanielW]

Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

are you a tuner?

did i say i was? I didn't think so... Anyway, I just don't want to get locked into having to drive 4-8 hours to a shop if minor adjustments need to be made. Or if something happens and i don't want to go to that particular shop anymore.

[rcdash]

Originally Posted by DanielW

did i say i was? I didn't think so... Anyway, I just don't want to get locked into having to drive 4-8 hours to a shop if minor adjustments need to be made. Or if something happens and i don't want to go to that particular shop anymore.

+1 My positive experience with the Haltech has stemmed in large part from interaction with Hal at InjectedPerformance via e-mail with tune tweaks. Traction control didn't exist when the Haltech first came out so Sharif didn't set any of that up. A firmware patch from Hal and a new boost vs wheel slip map and I'm set to go as soon as the new feature is released, with no travel time, no cost, no downtime.

The FCON lock is suboptimal. I tried to see if Sharif could "remote desktop" in to a laptop while having his USB key plugged in at his end. If that was possible, I might've considered it because the Haltech was so new when I was ready to take delivery of the car. He said there is just no way to get that to work. You have to have that key physically close by the car being tuned. That's ridiculous in this day and age. There are smarter ways that HKS could have locked things down to make it easier for pro-dealers to sell and support the damn thing remotely.

Now in retrospect, I'm glad things worked out the way they did. No cam control on the FCON. No traction control either. I didn't realize what a gem I was purchasing when I decided on the Haltech...

[doug]

Originally Posted by SlideFox

That can be a good thing and a bad thing. With software that is not locked, you are going to get some idiot that thinks he knows how to tune, and is going to f*ck something up.

plus multiple tuners + boom = finger pointing and no ownership

the thing about the FCON is.. if you go from Sharif to Julian or Julian to Sharif... either person has to wipe the FCON and putting new values.. if your car blows up on a EMS thats not locked.. one tuner can say he only changed X and Y caused it to blow.. while the old tuner will say X caused it to blow.. not Y

[rcdash]

Originally Posted by SlideFox

That can be a good thing and a bad thing. With software that is not locked, you are going to get some idiot that thinks he knows how to tune, and is going to f*ck something up.

For the tuners out there that don't know this, I can VNC (remotely connect) to a laptop that is hooked up to the Haltech, start ECU manager using that local session, unlock the tune, make changes, and quit out.

So it is possible for a tuner to lock down a tune and still support their customers remotely with the Haltech. You can also e-mail locked maps around. Pretty sure the tuner would have to enter the password to upload, so some sort of remote network connection would have to be employed.

I am pretty sure that the built-in windows "remote desktop" will NOT work because of the Direct3D that is used within ECU Manager.

Originally Posted by doug

plus multiple tuners + boom = finger pointing and no ownership

the thing about the FCON is.. if you go from Sharif to Julian or Julian to Sharif... either person has to wipe the FCON and putting new values.. if your car blows up on a EMS thats not locked.. one tuner can say he only changed X and Y caused it to blow.. while the old tuner will say X caused it to blow.. not Y

Well, the other nice thing about the Haltech is that it has a "compare maps" tool that is really elegant. I could see exactly what Hal changed when he tweaked some stuff for me. The GUI shows a read only version of the difference between two maps. Very nice. I double checked in about 10 secs to see what maps (fuel, timing included) remained untouched...

If one tuner locks a Haltech map, a 2nd tuner would have to start from scratch to upload a new map - just like you describe for the FCON. So unless the first tuner leaves the tune completely unlocked or gives away the password, the same level of protection can be employed.

[GTM]

Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

dont get carried away... UTEC still the main choice of the piggy backs...good enough to control fuel to ~500-550whp depending on the tuners abiility and drivers habbit.

not everybody can fork out the coin for a stand alone

my personal choice for standalone is ProEFI...

but i got respect for Haltech and Vpro as well, many great vendors support it.
OP should go with what ever his tuner recomends and what is more accessible locally as well.



I agree, thats what standalones do. Standalones can make bad tuners look good too.
FOr the utec to be as "dialed in" as the fcon it would requeire way too many hours of tweakin( and probably still wouldnt be as smooth).

Sorry Jorge but I have to respectfully disagree with a few of your points here...

Any tuner will tell you that a piggy back is in fact easier to tune than a standalone, reason being you only have to worry about boost and the transition into it, where as a standalone you have to create the entire map. (from vacuum to full boost, and idle to redline, not to mention an array of other sub maps)

So saying a standalone will make bad tuners look good, is far from the truth. It is not easy to have a car run perfectly on a standalone, but can be done if you know what you are doing.

Now "good enough" for 500-550rwhp, that is an opinion. IMO If I am spending the money to have a 500-550rwhp car, I want the car to driver perfectly, and not have to worry about tweaking the tune every time the weather changes, or wondering if the factory ECU is adjusting its fuel trims throwing off my AFR. I want to be able to get in the car, it start right up (with the engine warm or cold) and just drive. For an additional ~$1500 or LESS, I think it is worth it by far. But you are correct everyone is in a different financial situation. ( although I would rather sell my expensive rims than skimp out on engine management)

If you MUST purchase a piggy back EMS because of financial reasons, then yes go for a UTEC, it offers standalone timing which makes it better than most of the other piggy backs, even though the interface sucks, and the changes you make don't always effect the area they are suppose to. We have installed hundreds of UTECs, and I feel they work great in low boost, or N/A situations, but eventually as you increase the power you will run into drive-ability issues, un-smooth transition into boost, and warm engine starting problems just to name a few.

I always recommend the VPro because it is the unit I am MOST familiar with and it has never let us down. The Haltech and ProEFI units are great as well I am sure, but cannot comment since I have not personally played around with them, but it seems as other people are having great success, which is great.

Bottom line - get a standalone. Some guy posted than he is using an Autronic box, I rather used that than a UTEC and I think he made a good choice.

Again, these are just my opinions.

-George

[Z1 Performance]

Originally Posted by doug

you really don't notice that the UTEC isn't that smooth until you drive an F-Con Car

Doug - again, depends who is punching the keys I've driven many an F Con car over the years (various cars, even well before the Z unit came out) and tons of utec cars as well (again, various cars). A crappy, half assed tune is a crappy half assed tune, and it can happen on an F Con just like it can happen on a utec, or any other box out there. These boxes are paperweights, no matter who's name is on the outside of it. The tuner is what turns the paperweight into something that runs with stock like smoothness, and unlocks and maximizes the potential that the ecu has.

Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

I agree, thats what standalones do. Standalones can make bad tuners look good too.
FOr the utec to be as "dialed in" as the fcon it would requeire way too many hours of tweakin( and probably still wouldnt be as smooth).

I could not disagree more. Standalones don't make the car smoother at all as an automatic matter of course. The tuner is what makes the ecu, not the other way around. The tuners biggest hurdle is learning to navigate the software of the particular unit he is tuning. From there, all the units out there work in a very, very similar fashion

[IIQuickSilverII]

Originally Posted by DanielW

did i say i was? I didn't think so... Anyway, I just don't want to get locked into having to drive 4-8 hours to a shop if minor adjustments need to be made. Or if something happens and i don't want to go to that particular shop anymore.

what is a minor adjustment to you? if you are talkign about changing exhausts, adding plenum spacer i doubt youd need a retune with haltech or proefi ... plus you get a user software with proefi that you wouldn't have to worry about.
Vpro is a lil more "extreme" in taht sense and unlike a user software the navigator isnt very sexy nor cheap but it eliminates a big problem "having too many cooks in the kitchen"

[GTM]

Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

what is a minor adjustment to you? if you are talkign about changing exhausts, adding plenum spacer i doubt youd need a retune with haltech or proefi ... plus you get a user software with proefi that you wouldn't have to worry about.
Vpro is a lil more "extreme" in taht sense and unlike a user software the navigator isnt very sexy nor cheap but it eliminates a big problem "having too many cooks in the kitchen"

The Camp2 replaces the navigator and is VERY sexy!

Once your VPro is properly installed and tuned, with all the compensations in place, there is no need for you to retune again.

Of course, assuming your tuner knows what he is doing, as Adam said, the tuner is the single most important factor, and it is important to go with the Hardware he recommends, since that is what he will be able to do the best job with.

If your tuner recommends Haltech, go Haltech, if he wants to go with a ProEFI, then go that route. If he wants to use a UTEC, you might as well because that means he doesn't feel comfortable with anything else, and will more than likely not do a good job, regardless of how capable the hardware is.

-George

[IIQuickSilverII]

Originally Posted by George@GTM

Now "good enough" for 500-550rwhp, that is an opinion. IMO If I am spending the money to have a 500-550rwhp car, I want the car to driver perfectly, and not have to worry about tweaking the tune every time the weather changes, or wondering if the factory ECU is adjusting its fuel trims throwing off my AFR. I want to be able to get in the car, it start right up (with the engine warm or cold) and just drive. For an additional ~$1500 or LESS, I think it is worth it by far. But you are correct everyone is in a different financial situation. ( although I would rather sell my expensive rims than skimp out on engine management)

yeah its IMO at those powerlevels... good enough = you will get by, monitor gauges/log like a hawk. I recomend standalones as the prefered choice but not going to say "if you dont run a standalone your car is going to blow"....if there is a finantial hurdle, running 500whp on utec isnt a bad deal

Originally Posted by George@GTM

Again, these are just my opinions.

-George

i dont dissagree with you ... the original post i quoted from you jsut sounded a bit like "forcing" to must use fcons all the time if FI.

[IIQuickSilverII]

Originally Posted by George@GTM

The Camp2 replaces the navigator and is VERY sexy!

Once your VPro is properly installed and tuned, with all the compensations in place, there is no need for you to retune again.

exactly my point to daniel, why is he so worried that its locked to him
I think even if i was Hal tunning his haltech i wouldnt want him to mess with the tune lol. The respect i have to the haltech is far more than just the fact its totally unlocked.
BTW the camp is hella sexy, just a bit expensive ...which is the point i was making with the user software.

Originally Posted by George@GTM

If your tuner recommends Haltech, go Haltech, if he wants to go with a ProEFI, then go that route. If he wants to use a UTEC, you might as well because that means he doesn't feel comfortable with anything else, and will more than likely not do a good job, regardless of how capable the hardware is.

-George

i totally agree, as i said:

my personal choice for standalone is ProEFI...

but i got respect for Haltech and Vpro as well, many great vendors support it.
OP should go with what ever his tuner recomends and what is more accessible locally as well.

[doug]

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance

Doug - again, depends who is punching the keys I've driven many an F Con car over the years (various cars, even well before the Z unit came out) and tons of utec cars as well (again, various cars). A crappy, half assed tune is a crappy half assed tune, and it can happen on an F Con just like it can happen on a utec, or any other box out there. These boxes are paperweights, no matter who's name is on the outside of it. The tuner is what turns the paperweight into something that runs with stock like smoothness, and unlocks and maximizes the potential that the ecu has.

Adam.. maybe i am a little more sensitive than you are.. but the UTEC has a delay as it needs to when it goes from the ECU to the UTEC at about 3 PSI of boost and in some cases when you hit 1 PSI and let off the gas the car may surge.. this has been noted by people tuned by Julian, Sharif, Jermey and Sam.. so i wouldn't really call any or all those 4 guys half ass tuners... I'm sorry.. the F-Con doesn't show any difference going in and out of boost like the UTEC does. Maybe you didn't notice it because both cars wern't yours and you wern't daily driving them.. so you didn't experience it day by day over and over. I think we can all agree that driving people's car time to time isn't the same as Daily Driving a car.. i did 6,000 miles on a UTEC and 9,000 on an F-Con.. thats daily drivng

[DanielW]

Originally Posted by doug

Adam.. maybe i am a little more sensitive than you are.. but the UTEC has a delay as it needs to when it goes from the ECU to the UTEC at about 3 PSI of boost and in some cases when you hit 1 PSI and let off the gas the car may surge.. this has been noted by people tuned by Julian, Sharif, Jermey and Sam.. so i wouldn't really call any or all those 4 guys half ass tuners... I'm sorry.. the F-Con doesn't show any difference going in and out of boost like the UTEC does. Maybe you didn't notice it because both cars wern't yours and you wern't daily driving them.. so you didn't experience it day by day over and over. I think we can all agree that driving people's car time to time isn't the same as Daily Driving a car.. i did 6,000 miles on a UTEC and 9,000 on an F-Con.. thats daily drivng

100% agree. I run the UTEC and am happy with the tuner but it is far from smooth when i let off the gas. I think most utec users get the "surge"

[athenG]

Originally Posted by DanielW

100% agree. I run the UTEC and am happy with the tuner but it is far from smooth when i let off the gas. I think most utec users get the "surge"

That is normal for most piggy back since there is a big difference in A/F and timing when Utec gives back the control to the ECU. Not to mention you are pegged to your seat when launching and you are in full boost with all the TQ then when you let go of the gas then you are release from your seat again..lol I think you are talking about part throttle were you go in and out of boost then there is not much fix for a piggy back because of what I said above. For WOT run then Utec seem to be smooth in my experience. I never had any bad surge when going from ECU to Boost especially at WOT.

[zulator03]

ty all for the info i be posting my car with a turbo soooooon i hope

[Z1 Performance]

I understand what you mean Doug, I'll remember to look for that the next time I get to drive any of those cars. Perhaps Jermaine could shed some light on it as well and give some pointers on how to best minimize it/avoid it

[doug]

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance

I understand what you mean Doug, I'll remember to look for that the next time I get to drive any of those cars. Perhaps Jermaine could shed some light on it as well and give some pointers on how to best minimize it/avoid it

i don't think its something you can really avoid or minimize as athenG said its just how the piggy back works .. i mean it was never a problem.. but my problem was i was spoiled by my Emanage Blue (yes i know its a POS) .. i don't know if it was because i was only running 4.5 PSI at the time.. but it was smooth as hell going in and out of boost.. and that made it noticable on the UTEC.. so when i got the F-Con it was that smoothness again

[athenG]

/\ Yeah, Emanage Blue don't control Ignition so that is why there is no surge or jerk when going in and out of boost... lol

[zulator03]

wow i did not thing there b so many respondeers thanks again