what ems do you prefer

[Cannysage]

I'm kinda tired of hearing about the FCON.. I'm looking into the Haltech more. Fcon is great, but I don't want it to be the only solution.

[GTM]

Originally Posted by Cannysage

I'm kinda tired of hearing about the FCON.. I'm looking into the Haltech more. Fcon is great, but I don't want it to be the only solution.

FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON.


J/k

[Cannysage]

Originally Posted by George@GTM

FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON, FCON.


J/k

no! make it stop!

[mrg1981]

Great, George, now anytime someone uses the search function for FCON, this thread's going to own them!

[mikez97]

Haltech tuned by the mad scientist FTW ./

[rcdash]

I'd love to read more about the FCON - could never get too much detailed technical info on it, which made it harder to decide to purchase (I like to know what I'm getting)...

[DMK]

Is the ProEFI locked?

[SlideFox]

Originally Posted by DMK

Is the ProEFI locked?

Yes and no, Your initial tune has to be done by a ProEFI dealer, and then you have access to certain parameters via the user software (soon to be released).

[IIQuickSilverII]

Originally Posted by DMK

Is the ProEFI locked?

in that sense think of it like a happy medium between fully locked fcon and totally open like aem or haltech

[GurgenPB]

Gosh, it's been SO since I posted.... Months.... Saw this thread though, and wanted to put in my $0.02.

I have personally looked at MANY EMS' over a year ago, and rsearched their implementation on our platform ad nauseum. Here is my list (and these are the only ones I would ever run).

1. MoTeC M400/M600/M800 series (I have the M800)
2. Pectel
3. Magneti Marelli
4. Fcon Vpro
5. Haltech
6. Autronic
7. AEM

At the end I found that for what I wanted to do with this car, believe it or not, only the MoTeC would suffice. That's not to say that that's for everybody, certainly not, but once you work with the MoTeC and truly realize it's potential, there is just no going back.

There are a few comments above that are misleading. Yes, the tuner is the most important factor, but when you cannot rely on relatively basic functions being performed reliably, regardless who is punching the keyboard, you will NEVER have a reliable setup. And that is where MoTeC simply has no equals. Everything JUST WORKS, and WORKS amazingly and uncompromisingly well with an infinite degree of reliablility. Yes, it's a very expensive setup, and if I had to pay somebody to install/tune the MoTeC on a G35, it would cost upward of $6000-7000 or more. The problem is, even if someone knows the MoTeC really well, they do not know the correct way of implementing it on our cars (and make it streetable). So, it would still require a hardcore enthusiast to do his own homework. I am settign the car up for tracking, almost exclusively (not that I have a daily driver). Only the MoTeC allows for a serious track ready setup, such as:

1. Integrated up-to-500Hz data-logging
2. Wireless telemetry back to the pits
3. Differential GPS track mapping with definable custom track segments.
4. Unparalleled DBW-based traction control, inclding G AND Yaw-rate based setup (my next stage)
5. G-based Accusump control
6. Quad-stage water injection (via Aquamist HFS) and spray bar control
7. Full Torque mapping
8. DBW
9-100.... many more

My point being, for thse out there reading, if you are everr plannign to track your car, and lookign to buy an EMS JUST ONCE (that will work on your next car) and perhaps advance over the years to take advantage of these capabilities (if you are not doing so now), these are some of the considerations to take into account.

Haltech Platinum no doubt has several glitched that I am aware of... that essentially erases it as a possibility for anyone who is a serious tracker. But, if you are looking for an EMS for a street car only, then at least get someting that just works ultra reliably (albeit having a relatively short advanced feature list) and has some street car niceties... hence my designation of teh Fcon as the first non-professional EMS.... it jsut works and the result is awefully nice (especially for a street car). Same cannot be said for the Haltech or ProEFI, and ceratinly NOT for te UTEC, regardless of what those that sell them say.

[SnyperZ]

Originally Posted by GurgenPB

Same cannot be said for the Haltech or ProEFI, and ceratinly NOT for te UTEC, regardless of what those that sell them say.

Please elaborate on this a little.Id like to know why you think that since I just purchased one of these units... Ive been doing alot of research on the PROEFI on the supra forums and they can't say enough good things about how streetable and nice it is....

[IIQuickSilverII]

he doesnt know so he is assuming, just ignore that part

[GurgenPB]

QuickSilver... I am NOT just assuming...


When the PRoEFI was originally announced, I could not belive the bullsh^t being peddled by it's so called knowledgeable creator. I seriosuly just didn't know where to start when I, for a moment, decided to get into the frey and weigh in, only to realize that I jsut could not afford the time that it would take to truly carry my argument/ideas forward.

Here is what I do know, and it ABSOLUTELY precludes the installation of this ECU on ANY serious car. Batch fire injection? Are you kidding be. And I was laughing at the "creator's" (or whoever was on his nuts at the time posting for him) allusion to carburation and how that's the most effective atomization method to date (paraphrasing). While that is indeed true in certain specific circumstances, what does that have to with a car that has fuel injection. the "EFI" in ProEFi stands for Electronic Fuel Injection right? Remember, we are not talking about semi-sequential injection, but a goddamn batch fire! Why don't you just install the MegaSquirt Ultra (which can be had for under $200) and which does have a half-way stable software package (better than UTEC). Full sequential injection is not only cleaner (in several respects) but allows for injection TIMING tuning, which makes a sizeable (more than "0.1 mpg" BS claim) gas mileage improvement and torque/power gains. BTW, this is just one of the issues, there were many mor that I was going to address, but then decided to, you know, go on living my life.

The amount of misinformation here is staggering and at times truly angering. This is why the best tuning forums and invitation only, and that's where I'd rather spend my time and energy making suggestions and learning myself a great deal simultaneously.

I have come to learn, as many of the people in the tuning business I am sure will agree (I am not in the business), that the reliability of automotive computer softwae, be it for diagnoses (i.e. Cipher, etc) or tuning, is incredibly poor. Where reliability means so much, as it should, how can one pay as much money as ProEFI costs, where they can get a previous gen Motec ECu for nearly the same price (Mx series, not the Mx00 series), not to mention an Autronic or an Fcon. And the fact that an ECU such as that is not completely unlocked, is just pure laughable. THe best ECUs on the planet (MoTeC, Magneti, Pectel) have fully unlocked software available free of charge..... don't you guys think that there is a reason for that? The most important one being the more poeple use it, the more problems will be reported. MoTeC has been updated last year once (for a few bug fixes). Why, because it's essentially flawless to start with... that what you get when you have a REAL R&D dept.

Here is a c&p from the other thread about some of the issues that were encountered with ProEFI. Though it's one man's opinion, it's one I have no probelm believing.... there is no such thing as free lunch.

Now lets break it down to the issues Proefi has:

1) Unsteady Idle and AFR's
(you never know what you going to get from one day to the next)

2) having to crank the car 3x just for it to turn over
(2nd time always backfiring meaning too much fuel)

3) CEL Galore
(I guess that was a added features just so you can feel special)

4) Multi firing injectors and can't even get the injector driver right
(Clicking from injectors and firing 2 injectors at once in these day and age)

5) Locked box can only be tuned by authorized dealers
(User software/Can gauge has been promised and its always coming down the line, apart from authorized dealers being far and in between)

6) car stalling out in the middle of a turn
(Very scary lets not even get into that and hope it doesn't happen to others)

7) No Knock detention
(Supposedly still in the works)

8) Jason swears up and down that the PROEFI removes Rev limiter


I brought all this up with a few dealers apart from the dealer that installed it and according to some around here "I just needed a software update". Well I got the software update and this POS kept being a POS.

Now I got the Utec back in and I almost held the key in the crank position for too long since i was accustomed to holding down the key forever for the car to crank over with the ProEFI. I got my old tune's back in the Utec and couldn't be happier.

ProEFI was suppose to be a upgrade not a downgrade.
I probably push my car harder than 80% of the people on these forum.
My car is not a show car.
My car is a Street/Track car I push it to the limit weekly at different Autox/Road Course events.
My motor and my car stay in top running condition cause I take care of it.
I know what works and what doesn't in my car and the PROEFI evidently didn't.
I Hadn't laid out any $$$(At least until it was running right) out of pocket to make the move to
the PROEFI and to basically give something back that I got practically for free will show you how much misery it brought me.
Remember I tried keeping it civilized it but since people want to start bashing
I can bring it with the best of them.

[GurgenPB]

Originally Posted by SnyperZ

Please elaborate on this a little.Id like to know why you think that since I just purchased one of these units... Ive been doing alot of research on the PROEFI on the supra forums and they can't say enough good things about how streetable and nice it is....

Snyper,

The best of luck with your setup, I mean it. But think about it, how many supra track cars have you seen? Most of those guys do 1/4 mile/street racing.... that not tracking. I am talkign about WOT to braking to WOT to cornering... so there are issues with TC, DBW, etc etc etc.... So we are talkign about a far higher standard. THink about it, how complicated and polished is our STOCK OEM ecu? Incredibly so. You can go track your NA car no problem, or do conti nous WOT runs (1/4 mile) without it braking. By going FI, we are effectively removing the safety margin engineered into the car entirely, so I hope you now understand where I am coming from when I say how can we then go for anything less than OEM-level reliability/precision in the EMS dept. The only one (or three) that fit that bill in the aftermarket department I listed at hte end of my last post, and I would like to add to that the Fcon, thoug you will need to go to a good tuner who truly knows what they are doing.

[SlideFox]

Wow Gurgen, You see to have all your facts together! So when did you last tuned/worked with/ driven a ProEFI car? You seem to be very knowledgeable... please take me to school?

[1ZweetZ]

I read, and re-read your post, trying to find even one thing you said that was accurate....I couldn't...not one! First, the proefi is NOT batch fire...if you know and understand fuel injection as well as you state, you would understand the difference. Batch fire, fires ALL injectors once every revolution of the engine. Sequential injections fires each injector once per cycle, as does the ProEFI. The 48 pin ecu fires them in pairs (sequentially, once per cycle) because it has 4 injector drivers. If you think you need to go to 6 or more drivers, opt for the 128. You will, however, find absolutely NO difference in performance whatsoever.

Secondly, the only "aftermarket" ecu out there that is O.E. quality IS the ProEFI, and consequently the only one that gives you adaptive learning, fault management, and the protection you boast is needed....THE ONLY ONE!

THirdly, for this one post that one guy made regarding his "issues", I have find a couple of dozen from people stating how they couldn't tell there was an aftermarket ecu on the car. This is a system the tuners are still learning, and will take them a little time to figure out the tuning procedures to get them right, but that doesn't mean it isn't able to be done.

Since you openly admit your not in the "tuning" business, why don't you stick to what you ACTUALLY do know, and quit trying to bad mouth a product you have ZERO experience with, and know absolutely nothing about! Let the people that have had the experience make their posts. I have been in at least 4 cars with ProEFI's in them, and ALL of them PERFORMED Flawlessly! I watched them dyno the Intense G35, and watched them pull the car to 8krpm, so i'm guessing it in FACT does remove the rev limiter, you know since the stock computer no longer has ANY control whatsoever over the coils and injectors. Any mis-information comes from people like you who only go off of hearsay.... so your not helping anyone.

Originally Posted by GurgenPB

QuickSilver... I am NOT just assuming...


When the PRoEFI was originally announced, I could not belive the bullsh^t being peddled by it's so called knowledgeable creator. I seriosuly just didn't know where to start when I, for a moment, decided to get into the frey and weigh in, only to realize that I jsut could not afford the time that it would take to truly carry my argument/ideas forward.

Here is what I do know, and it ABSOLUTELY precludes the installation of this ECU on ANY serious car. Batch fire injection? Are you kidding be. And I was laughing at the "creator's" (or whoever was on his nuts at the time posting for him) allusion to carburation and how that's the most effective atomization method to date (paraphrasing). While that is indeed true in certain specific circumstances, what does that have to with a car that has fuel injection. the "EFI" in ProEFi stands for Electronic Fuel Injection right? Remember, we are not talking about semi-sequential injection, but a goddamn batch fire! Why don't you just install the MegaSquirt Ultra (which can be had for under $200) and which does have a half-way stable software package (better than UTEC). Full sequential injection is not only cleaner (in several respects) but allows for injection TIMING tuning, which makes a sizeable (more than "0.1 mpg" BS claim) gas mileage improvement and torque/power gains. BTW, this is just one of the issues, there were many mor that I was going to address, but then decided to, you know, go on living my life.

The amount of misinformation here is staggering and at times truly angering. This is why the best tuning forums and invitation only, and that's where I'd rather spend my time and energy making suggestions and learning myself a great deal simultaneously.

I have come to learn, as many of the people in the tuning business I am sure will agree (I am not in the business), that the reliability of automotive computer softwae, be it for diagnoses (i.e. Cipher, etc) or tuning, is incredibly poor. Where reliability means so much, as it should, how can one pay as much money as ProEFI costs, where they can get a previous gen Motec ECu for nearly the same price (Mx series, not the Mx00 series), not to mention an Autronic or an Fcon. And the fact that an ECU such as that is not completely unlocked, is just pure laughable. THe best ECUs on the planet (MoTeC, Magneti, Pectel) have fully unlocked software available free of charge..... don't you guys think that there is a reason for that? The most important one being the more poeple use it, the more problems will be reported. MoTeC has been updated last year once (for a few bug fixes). Why, because it's essentially flawless to start with... that what you get when you have a REAL R&D dept.

Here is a c&p from the other thread about some of the issues that were encountered with ProEFI. Though it's one man's opinion, it's one I have no probelm believing.... there is no such thing as free lunch.

[doug]

Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ

blah blah blah

so are you saying your hand picked Shop TurboTrix doesn't know what they are doing? or you didn't provide them with enough support to get GFlex car running right?

[1ZweetZ]

You lost all credibility when you stated reliability being the most important, and then followed that up with listing AEM as your #7 choice. I would love to hear what experience you ACTUALLY have with ANY of the ecu's you listed. Perception doesn't go very far with me. Ferrari's, Mercedes, BMW's are preceived to be excellent cars...yet they don't even fall in the same league as our beloved Nissan's for relibiltiy. Talk to people who have used the other ecu's mentioned on several occasions and for long periods of times, and you will soon find that they have ALL had their share of issues. I distinctly remember being at an event when Justin Humphries (now a prostock racer) had to overnight his Motec back becuase it locked up solid. After spending hours on the phone with one of the techs at Motec, he was dead in the water...wound up borrowing a back up ecu from another racer....wonder why that other racer had a back up ecu???? Let's talk about what you KNOW, not what you THINK you know.

Originally Posted by GurgenPB

Gosh, it's been SO since I posted.... Months.... Saw this thread though, and wanted to put in my $0.02.

I have personally looked at MANY EMS' over a year ago, and rsearched their implementation on our platform ad nauseum. Here is my list (and these are the only ones I would ever run).

1. MoTeC M400/M600/M800 series (I have the M800)
2. Pectel
3. Magneti Marelli
4. Fcon Vpro
5. Haltech
6. Autronic
7. AEM

At the end I found that for what I wanted to do with this car, believe it or not, only the MoTeC would suffice. That's not to say that that's for everybody, certainly not, but once you work with the MoTeC and truly realize it's potential, there is just no going back.

There are a few comments above that are misleading. Yes, the tuner is the most important factor, but when you cannot rely on relatively basic functions being performed reliably, regardless who is punching the keyboard, you will NEVER have a reliable setup. And that is where MoTeC simply has no equals. Everything JUST WORKS, and WORKS amazingly and uncompromisingly well with an infinite degree of reliablility. Yes, it's a very expensive setup, and if I had to pay somebody to install/tune the MoTeC on a G35, it would cost upward of $6000-7000 or more. The problem is, even if someone knows the MoTeC really well, they do not know the correct way of implementing it on our cars (and make it streetable). So, it would still require a hardcore enthusiast to do his own homework. I am settign the car up for tracking, almost exclusively (not that I have a daily driver). Only the MoTeC allows for a serious track ready setup, such as:

1. Integrated up-to-500Hz data-logging
2. Wireless telemetry back to the pits
3. Differential GPS track mapping with definable custom track segments.
4. Unparalleled DBW-based traction control, inclding G AND Yaw-rate based setup (my next stage)
5. G-based Accusump control
6. Quad-stage water injection (via Aquamist HFS) and spray bar control
7. Full Torque mapping
8. DBW
9-100.... many more

My point being, for thse out there reading, if you are everr plannign to track your car, and lookign to buy an EMS JUST ONCE (that will work on your next car) and perhaps advance over the years to take advantage of these capabilities (if you are not doing so now), these are some of the considerations to take into account.

Haltech Platinum no doubt has several glitched that I am aware of... that essentially erases it as a possibility for anyone who is a serious tracker. But, if you are looking for an EMS for a street car only, then at least get someting that just works ultra reliably (albeit having a relatively short advanced feature list) and has some street car niceties... hence my designation of teh Fcon as the first non-professional EMS.... it jsut works and the result is awefully nice (especially for a street car). Same cannot be said for the Haltech or ProEFI, and ceratinly NOT for te UTEC, regardless of what those that sell them say.

[1ZweetZ]

Originally Posted by doug

so are you saying your hand picked Shop TurboTrix doesn't know what they are doing? or you didn't provide them with enough support to get GFlex car running right?

I can't comment, that would be hear say...and I don't do that. I didn't pick anybody. However several posts were made about him taking the car back to have issues fixed, and he never did.... so who really is to blame? Turbo trix is still learning the system, and when the customer chooses not to keep them informed...what can they do?

[Scootch]

Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

what is a minor adjustment to you? if you are talkign about changing exhausts, adding plenum spacer i doubt youd need a retune with haltech or proefi ... plus you get a user software with proefi that you wouldn't have to worry about.
Vpro is a lil more "extreme" in taht sense and unlike a user software the navigator isnt very sexy nor cheap but it eliminates a big problem "having too many cooks in the kitchen"

bawlz in yo mouf fool.. lol qucksilver is the man

Team DNF