FI bug has bit, going Vortech
04-19-2016, 03:28 PM
#21
Pulled the trigger on a Greddy 18g kit, figured a bit more power and probably he same reliability as a pissed off NA build.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
I personally don't see the point in pathfinder mod, HR mod is worth it if you can do it
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Probably would be fine with standard, but then again arp studs never hurt anyone. I think I would recommend the studs if you wanted to rev out
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
Smaller throttle body I would recommend for sure, allows much better on power throttle control (help regulate how you put the power down more precisely)
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
haltech redbox is all you need ofc, and they're cheap. I would get the GTR injectors, there is no idle/transient issues with that size, and the extra head room will be nice to have (for duty cycle)
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Negative ghost rider. On a tracked vehicle,you WANT the fail safes even a redbox haltech can give you. You could easily sell that Up Rev cable and have enough for a redbox. Over boost, built in traction control stuff, coolant temp all sorts of fail safes you want on a track vehicle, not worth
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
Stock DE cams wont make power at 7500 imho, maybe rev up cams or hr cams, which have more lift and duration just make sure you get a rev up oil pump
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
I personally don't see the point in pathfinder mod, HR mod is worth it if you can do it
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Probably would be fine with standard, but then again arp studs never hurt anyone. I think I would recommend the studs if you wanted to rev out
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
Smaller throttle body I would recommend for sure, allows much better on power throttle control (help regulate how you put the power down more precisely)
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
haltech redbox is all you need ofc, and they're cheap. I would get the GTR injectors, there is no idle/transient issues with that size, and the extra head room will be nice to have (for duty cycle)
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Negative ghost rider. On a tracked vehicle,you WANT the fail safes even a redbox haltech can give you. You could easily sell that Up Rev cable and have enough for a redbox. Over boost, built in traction control stuff, coolant temp all sorts of fail safes you want on a track vehicle, not worth
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
Stock DE cams wont make power at 7500 imho, maybe rev up cams or hr cams, which have more lift and duration just make sure you get a rev up oil pump
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
If you're at all interested in a long block let me know.
Last edited by Resmarted; 04-19-2016 at 03:29 PM.
04-19-2016, 03:41 PM
#22
your de block will need to be machined for hr head gaskets make sure you give the machine shop the hr head gaskets and explain it to them.
425-450 whp...is quite low 9.5 compression go for it your built motor will last quite some time.
hr head stud bolts and hr main stud bolts yes for 450 whp that is good enough.
osiris uprev for FI in 400 whp is good. you might have to buy an upgraded maf sensor look for hpx or uprev gt whatever fits yourself....
pathfinder mod has nothing to do with hr headgaskets you straight up attach it onto the back end of the block. and cut the pipe on the left side to adapt it to the pipe on passenger side.
ultimate cooling for track - evan's coolant, pathfinder mod, hr headgaskets and or cometic hr head gaskets...mishimoto radiator, oil cooler,
just keep your nwp and kinetix v+ i dont see why you would want to downgrade just leave it be. honestly it wont make that much of a difference.
440s injectors is more than enough for your power level. no need to upgrade unless your looking to do e85 which i suggest that you do. e85 burns cooler and will help preserve the engine for much longer. go for injector dynamics 850cc 350z injectors if looking to tune on e85 instead of pump gas.
you dont need a return fuel system, return fuel system is meant for people going for big power. in your situation all you have to do is put in a aeromotive fuel pump or a walbro 255 in the stock fuel pump assembly.
if your going to get your block built get .020 OS to 96mm. when you or someone else strips it down to a bare block the cylinder walls will have tons dirt and debris and possible rust spots. remachining the block .020 over assures that the cylinder walls look nice and shiny new.
getting headwork done is purely for raising rpm and honestly their is no point to raising rpm for 450 whp. your greddy turbos are really small and they spool up fast around 3.5k rpm. people who get headwork because they want to raise the rpm up because they run massive turbos (800-1000hp crowd) and they want to stay in boost when they shift through each gear. In your situation you will be in boost through every gear no problem. i would not waste my money on getting upgraded cams springs or ti retainers.
stock cams are good for 700hp, and power drops off after 6k rpm from my understanding. the cost of aftermarket cams springs retainers valves and valve stems are expensive and also you have to get extensive machine work done to the heads......and the performance output at your level the price wouldnt justify any real performance gain.
425-450 whp...is quite low 9.5 compression go for it your built motor will last quite some time.
hr head stud bolts and hr main stud bolts yes for 450 whp that is good enough.
osiris uprev for FI in 400 whp is good. you might have to buy an upgraded maf sensor look for hpx or uprev gt whatever fits yourself....
pathfinder mod has nothing to do with hr headgaskets you straight up attach it onto the back end of the block. and cut the pipe on the left side to adapt it to the pipe on passenger side.
ultimate cooling for track - evan's coolant, pathfinder mod, hr headgaskets and or cometic hr head gaskets...mishimoto radiator, oil cooler,
just keep your nwp and kinetix v+ i dont see why you would want to downgrade just leave it be. honestly it wont make that much of a difference.
440s injectors is more than enough for your power level. no need to upgrade unless your looking to do e85 which i suggest that you do. e85 burns cooler and will help preserve the engine for much longer. go for injector dynamics 850cc 350z injectors if looking to tune on e85 instead of pump gas.
you dont need a return fuel system, return fuel system is meant for people going for big power. in your situation all you have to do is put in a aeromotive fuel pump or a walbro 255 in the stock fuel pump assembly.
if your going to get your block built get .020 OS to 96mm. when you or someone else strips it down to a bare block the cylinder walls will have tons dirt and debris and possible rust spots. remachining the block .020 over assures that the cylinder walls look nice and shiny new.
getting headwork done is purely for raising rpm and honestly their is no point to raising rpm for 450 whp. your greddy turbos are really small and they spool up fast around 3.5k rpm. people who get headwork because they want to raise the rpm up because they run massive turbos (800-1000hp crowd) and they want to stay in boost when they shift through each gear. In your situation you will be in boost through every gear no problem. i would not waste my money on getting upgraded cams springs or ti retainers.
stock cams are good for 700hp, and power drops off after 6k rpm from my understanding. the cost of aftermarket cams springs retainers valves and valve stems are expensive and also you have to get extensive machine work done to the heads......and the performance output at your level the price wouldnt justify any real performance gain.
Justin
Osiris is not a good choice for a turbo car. Maf is not good in general but osiris has zero fail safes. Considering haltech is so cheap now, you'd be an absolute moron not to run something with boost fail safes. You're litterally asking for a hose to burn through on a hot lap, over boost and detonate. Or many other things that can happen while you're out racing. If you don't do that part right, you're literally asking for failure on 30 minute track runs.
Next 18g turbos are not "really small" they can make 600whp or more depending on the setup. Increasing revs is preferred on track cars because you get to stay in shorter gears for longer.
You need ZERO, i repeat ZERO machining for most cams, which is all the vq needs. You can run up to 11.66mm lift before you need to clearance the heads. You're going to need just valve springs and ti retainers which is 400$ for bc stuff, and cams are 1 grand. Considering you aren't going to run ARP l19's and probably not main studs, you can use the money there to help the heads out.
Running a bigger cam gets you more power up top, and can help keep the engine running cool due to lower dynamic compression cams offer. In some turbo applications, running a good cam can straight up prevent detonation.
On the track coolant temps and oil temps are the biggest issues. Make sure you get a bigger oil filter, and a multi stage oil cooler. Make sure all your oil plumbing is done correctly, and make sure you get an oil pressure and oil temp gauge. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an AAM pan spacer or something of the sort. Increased oil capacity is definitely useful. Although, you'll have to figure out what you can run (with your vehicle height etc).
You don't "Need" a fuel return system, but you sure as **** should want one. You can do one on the cheap by ordering bulkhead fittings from summit, and aeroquip socket less hose. If you can get someone to weld fittings on your stock rail you're fine to re-use it. In fact, if I was building a track car, there is no way I wouldn't go without an in car fuel pressure sensor, and a surge tank. Surge tank is the way to go on a track vehicle. Not running a return system means if your voltage drops at all for whatever reason, you're going to lose fuel. Not good. Make sure you get a fuel filter too.
Seriously justin
Last edited by terrasmak; 04-21-2016 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Cleaned up
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Cux350z (04-19-2016)
04-19-2016, 03:57 PM
#23
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sub'd and in for the epic pics
04-19-2016, 09:24 PM
#24
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Google and Haltech Redbox seem to suck. Trying to learn more
Is it a standalone or piggyback, can I still pass smog, the car is street legalish still. Disable top speed, NATS disable etc etc ?
Is it a standalone or piggyback, can I still pass smog, the car is street legalish still. Disable top speed, NATS disable etc etc ?
04-19-2016, 10:42 PM
#25
The only reason I would say not to go redbox is if you want flex fuel, then you're better off getting a newer haltech or aem or whatever you want really.
Haltech GUI is super easy to use too.
If you run the car on speed density, and have a fuel pressure regulator, those two alone even without various user/tuner defined fail safes, will do a lot to keep your engine from popping. Not to mention, flat foot shifting, traction control, boost by speed, etc etc.
If it was a street car, not nearly as important, but on a track things break as you know. It's cheap insurance for your engine.
The only thing is some guys have problems with cam vtc stuff I believe in g35's (which has for the most part been figured out if the problem happens to you), and a few guys have had some fuel resonance issues depending on the injector also I believe in g35's. I honestly can't remember. Rich or Binder or both of them had some issues, but if I recall it was g35 specific.
I'd tell you to call up XXX shop, but I haven't been talking to any in a while. I think most big name shops would tell you not to use osiris. Osiris is good for changing idle stuff for cams, and speed limiter etc, but not a good solution for a turbo car. Vortech is one thing because of the nature of a blower, but a turbo boosts differently depending on load. And that becomes more complicated to tune correctly.
Again track car, I would want the engine and tune to be super stout. Besides, with a properly setup haltech, you could get the car around the track even quicker
Last edited by Resmarted; 04-19-2016 at 10:51 PM.
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terrasmak (04-19-2016)
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terrasmak (04-21-2016)
04-21-2016, 12:23 PM
#29
If you need to pass emissions, then UpRev may be useful. I would keep it. When I had the red haltech box, I used the UpRev to disable one readiness monitor, which would otherwise fail, and that allowed me to pass. Resmarted is correct about the engine failsafes. UpRev won't do anything for you. The Haltech Pro plug in has tons of failsafe options, for oil pressure, lean tip in, air temp, oil temp, etc. But you cannot (easily) pass emissions with the Pro plug in. You could swap your stock ECU back in and it would work fine out of boost if you retain your MAF and had it tuned for the injectors you were using.
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terrasmak (04-21-2016)
04-21-2016, 09:41 PM
#30
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One more NA track event and I need to get my Jeep unfudged and I start with tearing my spare motor down for the build. Going to be a lot of work over the summer , but should be a lot of fun.
04-22-2016, 08:09 PM
#31
If you need to pass emissions, then UpRev may be useful. I would keep it. When I had the red haltech box, I used the UpRev to disable one readiness monitor, which would otherwise fail, and that allowed me to pass. Resmarted is correct about the engine failsafes. UpRev won't do anything for you. The Haltech Pro plug in has tons of failsafe options, for oil pressure, lean tip in, air temp, oil temp, etc. But you cannot (easily) pass emissions with the Pro plug in. You could swap your stock ECU back in and it would work fine out of boost if you retain your MAF and had it tuned for the injectors you were using.
But tbh kind of a moot point; the turbos will make you fail anywhere that's at least semi serious about smog. So... I don't really think uprev is worth it.
04-22-2016, 08:13 PM
#32
If I could do anything over again, I would put in carillos, and I would have the edge of the "keyway" on the uprev oil pump machined round. This should essentially make it the same as the $1000 nismo oil pump, and will help prevent oil pump failure at higher rpm even more. Considering the pump is $180 bucks, even with custom machining you shouldn't be out very much for the set up. It simply reduces the point loading the oil gear gets. So, yeah. There's more info in my build thread, if you're willing to drudge through all that crap. But yes food for thought. Hopefully by planting those seeds in your mind well before you start buying things, you'll be able to make fully informed decisions.
04-24-2016, 01:57 AM
#34
Registered User
of course haltech is much better than uprev in every single way. i am just claiming if hes going for 450 whp on a built block i dont see the problem with uprev at that power level.
haltech is also $2,000 dollars and cost roughly $500-1000 dollars in tuning costs.
which comes out to $3,000 dollars.
versus uprev where the maf sensor costs roughly 200-$350 tune cost about $500-$900 dollars.
which comes out to $1250.
does haltech have more fail safes of course it does it costs $2,000 dollars for a reason. uprev also have fail safes as well, it does monitor the knock sensor on the stock ecu. in all honesty though running low power in 425 to 450 whp i wouldnt waste my money on a haltech I would aim my car more for cooling mods for the track and using e85 that should be plenty safe. and 8-10 psi of boost pressure on a built block is honestly nothing.
i hear guys blow their motors on the track because, they were on a stock block with high compression pistons and 400 whp on stock rods bent the rods on probably 91 octane gas as well.... never really a tuning problem....
i have a haltech because i run crazy high hp and i appreciate the throttle feedback i hear uprev has more a choppy throttle feel when on the gas. what it really comes down to is the cost and the associated power level and what you value. i know plenty of guys that run 500 whp z's with osiris uprev for YEARS without any problems.
haltech is also $2,000 dollars and cost roughly $500-1000 dollars in tuning costs.
which comes out to $3,000 dollars.
versus uprev where the maf sensor costs roughly 200-$350 tune cost about $500-$900 dollars.
which comes out to $1250.
does haltech have more fail safes of course it does it costs $2,000 dollars for a reason. uprev also have fail safes as well, it does monitor the knock sensor on the stock ecu. in all honesty though running low power in 425 to 450 whp i wouldnt waste my money on a haltech I would aim my car more for cooling mods for the track and using e85 that should be plenty safe. and 8-10 psi of boost pressure on a built block is honestly nothing.
i hear guys blow their motors on the track because, they were on a stock block with high compression pistons and 400 whp on stock rods bent the rods on probably 91 octane gas as well.... never really a tuning problem....
i have a haltech because i run crazy high hp and i appreciate the throttle feedback i hear uprev has more a choppy throttle feel when on the gas. what it really comes down to is the cost and the associated power level and what you value. i know plenty of guys that run 500 whp z's with osiris uprev for YEARS without any problems.
Last edited by Justin100; 04-24-2016 at 02:07 AM.
04-24-2016, 01:10 PM
#35
of course haltech is much better than uprev in every single way. i am just claiming if hes going for 450 whp on a built block i dont see the problem with uprev at that power level.
haltech is also $2,000 dollars and cost roughly $500-1000 dollars in tuning costs.
which comes out to $3,000 dollars.
versus uprev where the maf sensor costs roughly 200-$350 tune cost about $500-$900 dollars.
which comes out to $1250.
does haltech have more fail safes of course it does it costs $2,000 dollars for a reason. uprev also have fail safes as well, it does monitor the knock sensor on the stock ecu. in all honesty though running low power in 425 to 450 whp i wouldnt waste my money on a haltech I would aim my car more for cooling mods for the track and using e85 that should be plenty safe. and 8-10 psi of boost pressure on a built block is honestly nothing.
i hear guys blow their motors on the track because, they were on a stock block with high compression pistons and 400 whp on stock rods bent the rods on probably 91 octane gas as well.... never really a tuning problem....
i have a haltech because i run crazy high hp and i appreciate the throttle feedback i hear uprev has more a choppy throttle feel when on the gas. what it really comes down to is the cost and the associated power level and what you value. i know plenty of guys that run 500 whp z's with osiris uprev for YEARS without any problems.
haltech is also $2,000 dollars and cost roughly $500-1000 dollars in tuning costs.
which comes out to $3,000 dollars.
versus uprev where the maf sensor costs roughly 200-$350 tune cost about $500-$900 dollars.
which comes out to $1250.
does haltech have more fail safes of course it does it costs $2,000 dollars for a reason. uprev also have fail safes as well, it does monitor the knock sensor on the stock ecu. in all honesty though running low power in 425 to 450 whp i wouldnt waste my money on a haltech I would aim my car more for cooling mods for the track and using e85 that should be plenty safe. and 8-10 psi of boost pressure on a built block is honestly nothing.
i hear guys blow their motors on the track because, they were on a stock block with high compression pistons and 400 whp on stock rods bent the rods on probably 91 octane gas as well.... never really a tuning problem....
i have a haltech because i run crazy high hp and i appreciate the throttle feedback i hear uprev has more a choppy throttle feel when on the gas. what it really comes down to is the cost and the associated power level and what you value. i know plenty of guys that run 500 whp z's with osiris uprev for YEARS without any problems.
It's not about power, its about load conditions.
A track car that does 30 minute sessions gets run a lot harder than your street car ever does. Which is something most people don't know.
That's why osiris wouldn't cut it. You don't get that, and I think that's a testament to your lack of understanding. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
Gotta add this kid to the ignore list.
Besides. A full tune on a MAF system, like osiris, would take longer than a haltech running speed density for various reasons. Stop trying to give advice on stuff you don't understand.
Last edited by Resmarted; 04-24-2016 at 01:11 PM.
04-24-2016, 03:09 PM
#37
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Justin, I think you're a little high on price for a used haltech...
I would venture to say that a haltech platinum pro (plug & play variant) would be less than $1000, it's two or three generations out by now...add the dual channel O2 sensor pack for a $200 more, $100 for a laptop and you're set...
the platinum pro with the dual channel o2 sensors would be plenty for Terra's track use...and haltechs VE tuning would be much more applicable on a track use car...My MAF and MAF tube are long gone!!!
I would venture to say that a haltech platinum pro (plug & play variant) would be less than $1000, it's two or three generations out by now...add the dual channel O2 sensor pack for a $200 more, $100 for a laptop and you're set...
the platinum pro with the dual channel o2 sensors would be plenty for Terra's track use...and haltechs VE tuning would be much more applicable on a track use car...My MAF and MAF tube are long gone!!!
04-24-2016, 04:19 PM
#38
Registered User
Justin, I think you're a little high on price for a used haltech...
I would venture to say that a haltech platinum pro (plug & play variant) would be less than $1000, it's two or three generations out by now...add the dual channel O2 sensor pack for a $200 more, $100 for a laptop and you're set...
the platinum pro with the dual channel o2 sensors would be plenty for Terra's track use...and haltechs VE tuning would be much more applicable on a track use car...My MAF and MAF tube are long gone!!!
I would venture to say that a haltech platinum pro (plug & play variant) would be less than $1000, it's two or three generations out by now...add the dual channel O2 sensor pack for a $200 more, $100 for a laptop and you're set...
the platinum pro with the dual channel o2 sensors would be plenty for Terra's track use...and haltechs VE tuning would be much more applicable on a track use car...My MAF and MAF tube are long gone!!!
yeah when i was shopping for the haltech....i could not find red box haltech for 350zs those are outdated and old units. also many people who were selling haltech units which is less than a handful of people wanted a lot for it $1500+ just for the unit itself. to find a haltech standalone for under $1000 good luck finding someone to agree to that price and just to find someone selling it.
the pricing i have listed above is retail price because its hard to find haltech used for the 350z cheap that is.
04-24-2016, 05:39 PM
#39
hatersgonnahate
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yeah when i was shopping for the haltech....i could not find red box haltech for 350zs those are outdated and old units. also many people who were selling haltech units which is less than a handful of people wanted a lot for it $1500+ just for the unit itself. to find a haltech standalone for under $1000 good luck finding someone to agree to that price and just to find someone selling it.
the pricing i have listed above is retail price because its hard to find haltech used for the 350z cheap that is.
the pricing i have listed above is retail price because its hard to find haltech used for the 350z cheap that is.
The red and silver boxes have been going for under 1k for a while.
