FI bug has bit, going Vortech
04-25-2016, 01:49 PM
#41
Megasquirt works for everything, but there is no plug and play harness.
If you want to make your own harness go for it. I would not want to do that.
As for justin's take on the red box, they run the same version of firmware as the new ones. They lack just a few features. Depending on what you want to do with the car, those features are not a deal breaker. The biggest difference between the red box and the silver is the ability for flex fuel. The newest haltech however is much closer to the pro efi 128 of that generation. Where you have even more options on how to setup the car.
Drivability of the red box is still going to be superior to osiris due to speed density tuning. And not to forget, you can set the car up on just about any injector that will physically fit, which has some serious advantages when you start upping the power, or increase injector size to reduce injector duty cycle. Osiris is poor at injector scaling. Uprev has made a lot of promises with larger injectors. The car will run on larger injectors, but it won't run well with transient properties and varying load conditions. As in running rich, coughing/stuttering etc.
The main reason I bring up the redbox is because it's the same price or cheaper than an osiris. A silver box is nearly the same as osiris, or just a bit more. And both will be superior for a track turbo car, where varying load conditions change air density. A lot of street cars can run MAF because they don't experience all the varying load conditions at WOT; a street boosted car probably won't be experiencing wot unless its on a straight relatively smooth, straight road. Where as on the track, you have grade changes which will change boost, oddities in gear loading (part of real actual track racing, you aren't always going to be in the perfect gear) causing boost changes. Not to forget the extra thermal load the car will HOLD, not just SEE. On a street car, you don't blast up and down the gears over and over and over, ever really. On the track you will. You will go from the bottom of first, to the top of fourth, over and over and over. That means the coolant system, the heads the block, the rods, everything will be much hotter. Not having a safety net incase temperatures get out of hand, or knock is introduced, or fuel cut is hit, or a wastegate line gets blown off, or something funny starts happening, is setting yourself up to need a very pre-mature engine rebuild.
I can't put it any more bluntly, if you're going to setup a track car, and run it for 30 minute sessions, and you don't run the proper EMS, you are absolutely setting yourself up for failure. Might not happen the first time you run the car, or the 10th time, or ever. But the chances for catastrophic failure of your most expensive component; your engine, go up dramatically.
So make your choice. Risk your engine for a savings of what 500$ (which you might even get back because tuning on maf takes longer), or spend a bit more and not worry about your car, and focus on the driving.
If you want to make your own harness go for it. I would not want to do that.
As for justin's take on the red box, they run the same version of firmware as the new ones. They lack just a few features. Depending on what you want to do with the car, those features are not a deal breaker. The biggest difference between the red box and the silver is the ability for flex fuel. The newest haltech however is much closer to the pro efi 128 of that generation. Where you have even more options on how to setup the car.
Drivability of the red box is still going to be superior to osiris due to speed density tuning. And not to forget, you can set the car up on just about any injector that will physically fit, which has some serious advantages when you start upping the power, or increase injector size to reduce injector duty cycle. Osiris is poor at injector scaling. Uprev has made a lot of promises with larger injectors. The car will run on larger injectors, but it won't run well with transient properties and varying load conditions. As in running rich, coughing/stuttering etc.
The main reason I bring up the redbox is because it's the same price or cheaper than an osiris. A silver box is nearly the same as osiris, or just a bit more. And both will be superior for a track turbo car, where varying load conditions change air density. A lot of street cars can run MAF because they don't experience all the varying load conditions at WOT; a street boosted car probably won't be experiencing wot unless its on a straight relatively smooth, straight road. Where as on the track, you have grade changes which will change boost, oddities in gear loading (part of real actual track racing, you aren't always going to be in the perfect gear) causing boost changes. Not to forget the extra thermal load the car will HOLD, not just SEE. On a street car, you don't blast up and down the gears over and over and over, ever really. On the track you will. You will go from the bottom of first, to the top of fourth, over and over and over. That means the coolant system, the heads the block, the rods, everything will be much hotter. Not having a safety net incase temperatures get out of hand, or knock is introduced, or fuel cut is hit, or a wastegate line gets blown off, or something funny starts happening, is setting yourself up to need a very pre-mature engine rebuild.
I can't put it any more bluntly, if you're going to setup a track car, and run it for 30 minute sessions, and you don't run the proper EMS, you are absolutely setting yourself up for failure. Might not happen the first time you run the car, or the 10th time, or ever. But the chances for catastrophic failure of your most expensive component; your engine, go up dramatically.
So make your choice. Risk your engine for a savings of what 500$ (which you might even get back because tuning on maf takes longer), or spend a bit more and not worry about your car, and focus on the driving.
Last edited by Resmarted; 04-25-2016 at 01:52 PM.
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terrasmak (04-25-2016)
04-25-2016, 04:24 PM
#42
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
^good stuff 'smart
04-25-2016, 06:20 PM
#43
Thanks lol. I didn't really touch on the little extra things, like the traction control because I already said them. But the GUI on haltech makes end user adjustments super easy. And I'm just now realizing... Does osiris even have data logging?
Data logging can be used to help develop a telemetric guide for how you're driving. It won't tell you everything, but it can certainly help.
Oh and don't you dare forget the dash display and can bus opportunities, or the ability to have ecu control nitrous, boost, water meth whatever.
Nothing cooler than a race car dash that you can program to show whatever your heart desires with shift lights and all
http://www.carid.com/haltech/iq3-dis...I1xBoCrnvw_wcB
Data logging can be used to help develop a telemetric guide for how you're driving. It won't tell you everything, but it can certainly help.
Oh and don't you dare forget the dash display and can bus opportunities, or the ability to have ecu control nitrous, boost, water meth whatever.
Nothing cooler than a race car dash that you can program to show whatever your heart desires with shift lights and all
http://www.carid.com/haltech/iq3-dis...I1xBoCrnvw_wcB
Last edited by Resmarted; 04-25-2016 at 06:24 PM.
04-25-2016, 07:12 PM
#44
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Thanks lol. I didn't really touch on the little extra things, like the traction control because I already said them. But the GUI on haltech makes end user adjustments super easy. And I'm just now realizing... Does osiris even have data logging?
Data logging can be used to help develop a telemetric guide for how you're driving. It won't tell you everything, but it can certainly help.
Oh and don't you dare forget the dash display and can bus opportunities, or the ability to have ecu control nitrous, boost, water meth whatever.
Nothing cooler than a race car dash that you can program to show whatever your heart desires with shift lights and all
http://www.carid.com/haltech/iq3-dis...I1xBoCrnvw_wcB
Data logging can be used to help develop a telemetric guide for how you're driving. It won't tell you everything, but it can certainly help.
Oh and don't you dare forget the dash display and can bus opportunities, or the ability to have ecu control nitrous, boost, water meth whatever.
Nothing cooler than a race car dash that you can program to show whatever your heart desires with shift lights and all
http://www.carid.com/haltech/iq3-dis...I1xBoCrnvw_wcB
I'm going to start looking for a Haltech, I'll just keep my eye out for the right deal. I already have UpRev and car do all tuning at home. Not very good with it, but learning.
04-25-2016, 08:07 PM
#45
Yes you can data log with UpRev. You just need the computer in the car to do it. Small laptops make that easy.
I'm going to start looking for a Haltech, I'll just keep my eye out for the right deal. I already have UpRev and car do all tuning at home. Not very good with it, but learning.
I'm going to start looking for a Haltech, I'll just keep my eye out for the right deal. I already have UpRev and car do all tuning at home. Not very good with it, but learning.
It's really like night and day how much easier haltech is lol. You won't regret getting one.
04-25-2016, 08:18 PM
#46
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
preaching to the damn choir - love my haltech, granted, it's the first silver box...
I hope you mean this figuratively...I had a 14" old dell to run mine and it sucked, nothing like scrolling a window to see everything...I got fed up with windows as microsoft stopped supporting my OS (yeah, that old) and picked up a 17" HP and it was worth the extra cash...
Once again, hat tip to JDM-V35 for doing a once over on the machine and helping me with the video card driver...despite him telling me to go buy a new machine.
a new 17" acer is like $400, this HP that I picked up was $100 off craigslist...
Shameless plug - but High Performance Academy is a great resource if you are 100% sure you're going haltech - about half their tutorials are done on a DE Z with the a haltech platform (they use a Pro Z and the Elite)...I'm by no means pro but I can navigate around the haltech with a little more confidence.
I hope you mean this figuratively...I had a 14" old dell to run mine and it sucked, nothing like scrolling a window to see everything...I got fed up with windows as microsoft stopped supporting my OS (yeah, that old) and picked up a 17" HP and it was worth the extra cash...
Once again, hat tip to JDM-V35 for doing a once over on the machine and helping me with the video card driver...despite him telling me to go buy a new machine.
a new 17" acer is like $400, this HP that I picked up was $100 off craigslist...
Shameless plug - but High Performance Academy is a great resource if you are 100% sure you're going haltech - about half their tutorials are done on a DE Z with the a haltech platform (they use a Pro Z and the Elite)...I'm by no means pro but I can navigate around the haltech with a little more confidence.
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jdm-v35 (05-05-2016)
05-01-2016, 10:09 AM
#47
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
05-01-2016, 04:52 PM
#48
I'm just going to throw this out there before you buy that: the plug in pro is a big step up from the red box. Out of all the dollars and cents I have thrown at the car, the plug in pro is the best money spent. For road racing, you want all the failsafes that thing has to offer... That said, all development has stopped on this unit (except for bug fixes) in lieu of Haltech's new Elite series. You may want to reach out to a dealer (e.g. Dynosty or Haltech USA) and see what kind of deal they can swing for you.
Last edited by rcdash; 05-01-2016 at 04:54 PM.
05-01-2016, 08:01 PM
#49
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
^I wasnt suggesting the op picks that up...I was simply showing they are available under 4 figures...
RC, you got a few good points...if I find a ProZ33 for a deal I'll consider it - I believe it has launch control? and a dignified idle control table? Probably a few other goodies. I don't know that I'll ever jump up to the elite. If I had it all all all over again I'd look into the Link G4+... some neat stuff on that one.
RC, you got a few good points...if I find a ProZ33 for a deal I'll consider it - I believe it has launch control? and a dignified idle control table? Probably a few other goodies. I don't know that I'll ever jump up to the elite. If I had it all all all over again I'd look into the Link G4+... some neat stuff on that one.
05-02-2016, 02:20 PM
#56
http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?t=10785
For the newer versions of the firmware you simply add the feature. Because our cars already have wheel speed sensors for abs it's pretty straightforward. Then it's a matter of tinkering and fine tuning the ignition retard how you like it. A lot of better drivers like there to be a bit more wheelspin above what is the "ideal".
The ideal wheelspin (or speed difference between driven tires and turning tires) is about 10% from what I've read and heard in several places. A lot of better drivers like the car to hold it closer to 13% or sometimes more depending on the turbo sizing. This is to help keep the tires spinning even if there are traction imperfections on the road. That 10% number is a generalised number based on the idea that most road tires will grip a bit more with kinetic friction rather than static friction due to the properties of the rubber.
And on the topic of which haltech you get, the better the ecu the better your car. But i would consider red box the absolute bare minimum for a track car. The newer versions have a lot more in and out features which you can take advantage of. If money is an issue and you can't afford the higher end ecu options, you'll be just fine with a red box properly set up
For the newer versions of the firmware you simply add the feature. Because our cars already have wheel speed sensors for abs it's pretty straightforward. Then it's a matter of tinkering and fine tuning the ignition retard how you like it. A lot of better drivers like there to be a bit more wheelspin above what is the "ideal".
The ideal wheelspin (or speed difference between driven tires and turning tires) is about 10% from what I've read and heard in several places. A lot of better drivers like the car to hold it closer to 13% or sometimes more depending on the turbo sizing. This is to help keep the tires spinning even if there are traction imperfections on the road. That 10% number is a generalised number based on the idea that most road tires will grip a bit more with kinetic friction rather than static friction due to the properties of the rubber.
And on the topic of which haltech you get, the better the ecu the better your car. But i would consider red box the absolute bare minimum for a track car. The newer versions have a lot more in and out features which you can take advantage of. If money is an issue and you can't afford the higher end ecu options, you'll be just fine with a red box properly set up
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tcode (05-02-2016)
05-02-2016, 02:21 PM
#57
Red box is better than UpRev because of boost control and boost cut but does not have all of the failsafes of the pro plug in. You can download ECU manager and load up a base map to see all of the options (not sure how to get to a red box only view).
There is more than just this though. For example, I have a 2-D fuel correction table that will add fuel under boost based on AFR vs differential fuel pressure. Lots of configurability. The only benefit right now of the Elite over the plug in pro is that the Elite can cut individual cylinders for traction control, which is very nice. The plug in pro can only retard timing, or cut spark or fuel altogether. The Elite has no plug in harness for the 350z either - you have to make your own (yuck).
There is more than just this though. For example, I have a 2-D fuel correction table that will add fuel under boost based on AFR vs differential fuel pressure. Lots of configurability. The only benefit right now of the Elite over the plug in pro is that the Elite can cut individual cylinders for traction control, which is very nice. The plug in pro can only retard timing, or cut spark or fuel altogether. The Elite has no plug in harness for the 350z either - you have to make your own (yuck).
Last edited by rcdash; 05-02-2016 at 02:24 PM.
05-02-2016, 04:55 PM
#58
Red box is better than UpRev because of boost control and boost cut but does not have all of the failsafes of the pro plug in. You can download ECU manager and load up a base map to see all of the options (not sure how to get to a red box only view).
There is more than just this though. For example, I have a 2-D fuel correction table that will add fuel under boost based on AFR vs differential fuel pressure. Lots of configurability. The only benefit right now of the Elite over the plug in pro is that the Elite can cut individual cylinders for traction control, which is very nice. The plug in pro can only retard timing, or cut spark or fuel altogether. The Elite has no plug in harness for the 350z either - you have to make your own (yuck).
There is more than just this though. For example, I have a 2-D fuel correction table that will add fuel under boost based on AFR vs differential fuel pressure. Lots of configurability. The only benefit right now of the Elite over the plug in pro is that the Elite can cut individual cylinders for traction control, which is very nice. The plug in pro can only retard timing, or cut spark or fuel altogether. The Elite has no plug in harness for the 350z either - you have to make your own (yuck).
05-02-2016, 11:20 PM
#59
That's Elite version of ECU, not Platinum Pro Plug-In, or am I missing something?
I have 1.13.1 firmware which, I believe, is the latest one? Can't find traction control feature in it. I can add Generic Ignition Correction table which let's me to do pulling ignition depending of the Wheel Slip or Wheel Speed Differential, but I would like to have ability to do full spark and fuel cut too. Is it possible?
Thanks in advance, and I apologize to OP for slight off topic.
Thanks in advance, and I apologize to OP for slight off topic.
05-03-2016, 06:03 AM
#60
Registered User
i would still opt to buy only the platinum pro plugin of the haltech ecu.
the redbox ecu doesnt control throttle and cam timing from my understanding. and its not a true standalone its still somewhat of a piggyback system just with more goodies and you still need to get your ecu reflashed with uprev to unlock the ecu which cost more money.
cost probably around 700 for osiris uprev reflash then another 500-600 for haltech tuning.
that is 1300 bucks plus the unit of the redbox your already at easily 2 grand.
i only see 1 way of doing it right and that is buying the platinum pro.
dynosty highly recommends the platinum pro because of the stock like throttle response feel, and tune e85 no problem.
the redbox ecu doesnt control throttle and cam timing from my understanding. and its not a true standalone its still somewhat of a piggyback system just with more goodies and you still need to get your ecu reflashed with uprev to unlock the ecu which cost more money.
cost probably around 700 for osiris uprev reflash then another 500-600 for haltech tuning.
that is 1300 bucks plus the unit of the redbox your already at easily 2 grand.
i only see 1 way of doing it right and that is buying the platinum pro.
dynosty highly recommends the platinum pro because of the stock like throttle response feel, and tune e85 no problem.
Last edited by Justin100; 05-03-2016 at 06:08 AM.