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I will be getting the harness bar from Paul at Avalon soon and am considering the Sabelt/Sparco 3" 6 point harnesses. It would consist of the pull up lap belt, 48" shoulder harnesses, and dual sub-belt. Most every online store has these for ~$195. What color? I have a chrome silver, but I think red no matter what in case I catch on fire and can see it the easiest.
Originally posted by mcclaskz Why is it dangerous? The bar is SCCA legal and over 2".
For one thing, if you roll the car your neck will snap like a twig. Normally, if the roof collapses and you're wearing a stock 3-point belt you'll get pushed to the side, the seatback will collapse, and you'll probably be ok (if you're lucky). But if you're bolted upright by a harness on each shoulder, the roof will come down right on your head and you'll die (if you're lucky) or become a quadraplegic (if you're not). Not a good scenario. If you add harnesses, you must add roll protection.
By the way, you're doing the right thing by going with the 6-point belt. If you have a big, frontal impact you're in big trouble with 4-pointers. When you have a frontal impact, your upper body (where most of your weight is) gets thrown up and out. A stock 3-point belt acts like a pulley: as your upper body pushes up and out on the shoulder strap, the belt simultaneously tightens across your lap. This helps keep you in your seat.
But, a 4-point harness doesn't do that. As your upper body pushes up and out on the shoulder belts, they pull the lap belt up off your lap. That means your body is free to slide under the lap belt (this is called "submarining"). Basically, you're looking at major abdominal trauma...likely death. That's why if you go with a rigid harness, you absolutely must have a 5- or 6-point belt with a properly installed anti-sub strap.
Thanks for the discussion. Well, I'm now not sure. Paul at Avalon said that these bars were crash tested w/ 300lbs dummies and they passed with flying colors. I'm not sure that means they were rolled, but I would probably have major problems if I rolled at 120+mph anyways. Do you really think I should not get this? I like that it screws into the stock upper shoulder belt points and doesn't disturb any interior pieces. I'm not sure I want a roll cage yet, but I got pretty beat up last weekend at the track(sore knees).
Originally posted by mcclaskz Thanks for the discussion. Well, I'm now not sure. Paul at Avalon said that these bars were crash tested w/ 300lbs dummies and they passed with flying colors. I'm not sure that means they were rolled, but I would probably have major problems if I rolled at 120+mph anyways.
You mentioned it's a 6-point harness, right? In that case, it's surely better than the stock 3-pointers in almost all cases (assuming the shoulder straps are mounted at the right angle). Usually crash testing involves a frontal or offset frontal impact. They probably didn't roll the car for the test.
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Originally posted by mcclaskz Do you really think I should not get this? I like that it screws into the stock upper shoulder belt points and doesn't disturb any interior pieces. I'm not sure I want a roll cage yet, but I got pretty beat up last weekend at the track(sore knees).
I wouldn't go that far. I think it's probably safer than stock for the most part. The one exception would be a roll-over. Then you're more likely to get seriously injured or killed than if you just had the stock belts. (You'd be surprised how easily most A-pillars fold in a roll. That leaves your belted head and shoulders as the highest point in the car.) Anway, my point is that harness bars are OK as long as you use harnesses with anti-sub straps...but a well-designed roll bar is much better.
The only real downside of a 4-point roll-bar is you lose your back seats. In a 350Z, that's not an issue
Originally posted by mcclaskz I am considering the Sabelt/Sparco 3" 6 point harnesses. It would consist of the pull up lap belt, 48" shoulder harnesses, and dual sub-belt. Most every online store has these for ~$195. What color? I have a chrome silver, but I think red no matter what in case I catch on fire and can see it the easiest.
Simpson makes a really nice 6-point harness system called the Platinum Series Cam Lock. It generally runs about $250. They have a silvery-grey color that would look awesome in a silver Z.
I also really love the Schroth "Profi III" and "Hybrid" lines of camlock harnesses. Check out HMS Motorsports for more info. The owner, Joe Marko, is very knowledgable about restraint systems.
Thanks race, is it any different for a dual sub belt? The TeamTech 6 pt. on Avalon's site had the dual sub mounted to the front seat bolts. That is what I wanted to do. Do you think I should not get this for track use? So far I have not done an auto-x but would like to. I will probably do 5-8 track events a year, but I still want this to remain my street car. I like how I can take the bar out. All the cages I have seen obviously cut up the interior pretty bad. Can I have both and still be safe? Last weekend at VIR I saw several FDs(Rx7) with this harness bar/rear strut bar set up with harnesses. Thanks again.
Originally posted by mcclaskz Thanks race, is it any different for a dual sub belt?
5-point belts are meant to be used with an upright racing seat, like the kind you'd put in most sports cars with good head clearance. The 6-pointers are designed for seats with a more laid-back angle, like formula cars. But some sports cars have little headroom and you need a more laid-back seat, so 6-pointers work better.
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Originally posted by mcclaskz The TeamTech 6 pt. on Avalon's site had the dual sub mounted to the front seat bolts. That is what I wanted to do. Do you think I should not get this for track use?
That really won't work at all. If the sub belts don't go pretty much straight down, then they don't do you any good. If they run too far forward, they'll pull the lap-belt off your lap. It's even worse than the 4-pointer!
I had an 5 point Pyrotect belt system installed. Worth every penny. A must for anyone who races or autocrosses with the leather seats! Anyone in FL or the South East region interested in having one installed should talk to Nick at N-Tech Engineering http://www.ntechengineering.com/index.cfm?model_id=10
mcclaskz probably saw him at VIR with the blue track with slicks.
He did a first class clean install putting the rear eye bolt anchors right into the rear strut bar only showing the eye.The sub bolt was through the floor below the seat. No bar needed and with the stock touring seats.
I have seen his Sabelt and tested it out fully at VIR! I like his install, but I like the fact that this Avalon bar can be used without any modification to the interior. I very much like that clipped setup (N-tech) how the bracket is welded to the rear strut tower. I just figured, for the price of the install, I could buy this bar, stiffen the chassis a little with it, and get the benefit of the harness. BlackFL, where is your insertion point for the sub belt located? Where are the other belts secured to? Again thank you all for the discussion.
A lot of instructors may refuse to ride with you if you have harnessses without a roll bar. Harness bars are not acceptable for a road course in many people's eyes.
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Track car: 2005 "Elixige" - S/C, Ohlins, 255Cup wheels, other stuff
Other vehicles: 2006 Titan SE 4x4, 2007 Mazda 3S, 1999 YZF600R, 2003 350Z Trackcar - RIP Buttonwillow 4/7/07
mcclaskz
For the lap belts, Nick used the existing lap belp mount points, just with the bolt replaced with an eye bolt. For the sub, there is no insertion point in the seat, I go just forward and down. Not the best, given the factory seats but help keeps the system in place. The great part of the install with all eye bolts, is everything can be taken out with clips for normal everyday driving and you contiune to use the factory 3 point.
So with Nick's system, most of the time was spent getting the eye bolts in the strut tower.
I am very happy with my Schroth 6-point system, installed by Piper Motorsports in Manassass, VA. See here.
I've had plenty of people tell me I need a roll bar or cage. Although I haven't ruled out getting one, I've decided that for the type of events I do (HPDEs, no racing), rolling over is relatively unlikely, and the risk is worth the added control the harnesses give me every time I go out on the track.
What I haven't heard is anyone claiming, as Kayaalp and raceboy do above, that a 6-point mounted to the seat's front mounting bolts is worse than a 4-point or could cause injury, and frankly, I don't see how that could be the case. I can see it might not work quite as well as going right through the seat, but how would it "pull the lap-belt off your lap"? Could you please elaborate, guys?
Oh BTW, the Schroth belts have a unique anti-sub system that is essentially a Z fold built into the inboard shoulder harness. This fold is firmly sealed down (glue? tape? I don't know), but in an impact it releases, giving you a little extra deceleration, but only on one side, so your torso rotates slightly. This is supposed to keep you from sliding under the lap belt. For more information, see this FAQ. This feature was one of the main reasons I decided on the Schroths. (It might also give me a little more room to maneuver when the roof is crushed down on my head, but I'm not counting on it.)
Last edited by commasense; 09-27-2003 at 09:55 PM.
I'm tired of rolling around in my seat, so I've been looking into a PROPER harness install. The Porsche club here requires a 6 point set with the stock seat, and a 5 point set with a race seat. I think I'll go with their recommendation. A LOT of the Porsches run with harness bars, no cage. Looks like I'll have all winter to finalize plans.
We need to be real clear on the purpose of the bars - They are NOT designed to act in any way shape or form as a roll bar. The are designed to allow the installation of a 4 to 6 point harness. These have been used in SCCA T-1 corvettes for some time now and passed technical inspection.
The company tyhat makes them for us does structural design and testing for all types of cars. These will definetent hold you in better in a roll over, BUT are not designed as a rolll bar, not advertised as such.
Originally posted by raceboy OK, just think about it a little and try to picture it in your head. With the lap belts running vertically, what happens as you get any forward movement? The vertical distance will decrease pulling the lap belt down. Run those same sub belts forward and they basically are just pulling the lap belt forward and letting it ride up with any forward movement. So while it's not really worse than a 4pt system, the anti sub belts are actually not doing anything for you at all.
Okay, well, we're imagining different things, probably because we're starting from different places. The difference between where a 5-pt. would theoretically go through my seat and the front edge of the seat where my actual 6-pts go is about two or three inches. And since the anti-sub belt is going straight down the front edge of the seat to the mounting bolts, I don't think it's possible for me to slide under it. I might slide part of that couple of inches, but no further.
In fact, with no roll bar/cage, in a rollover that couple of inches might be an actual benefit. Also, with a 5-pt., I'd be a little concerned about the fate of the umm... family jewels. With the 6-pt., they seem to be in a safer situation.
As I said, my set up may not be as good as through the seat, but it's definitely better than nothing. If the seat were more reclined, or the mounting points were farther forward, I'd agree that the risk would be greater. But it's going too far to say that they're doing no good at all or that they're worse than nothing. IMO.
If I weren't so busy with work right now, I'd take some pictures. Maybe a little later.
Last edited by commasense; 09-30-2003 at 08:03 AM.
Which harnesses to buy?
