Which harnesses to buy?
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Which harnesses to buy?
I will be getting the harness bar from Paul at Avalon soon and am considering the Sabelt/Sparco 3" 6 point harnesses. It would consist of the pull up lap belt, 48" shoulder harnesses, and dual sub-belt. Most every online store has these for ~$195. What color? I have a chrome silver, but I think red no matter what in case I catch on fire and can see it the easiest.
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Roll protection
Originally posted by mcclaskz
Why is it dangerous? The bar is SCCA legal and over 2".
Why is it dangerous? The bar is SCCA legal and over 2".
By the way, you're doing the right thing by going with the 6-point belt. If you have a big, frontal impact you're in big trouble with 4-pointers. When you have a frontal impact, your upper body (where most of your weight is) gets thrown up and out. A stock 3-point belt acts like a pulley: as your upper body pushes up and out on the shoulder strap, the belt simultaneously tightens across your lap. This helps keep you in your seat.
But, a 4-point harness doesn't do that. As your upper body pushes up and out on the shoulder belts, they pull the lap belt up off your lap. That means your body is free to slide under the lap belt (this is called "submarining"). Basically, you're looking at major abdominal trauma...likely death. That's why if you go with a rigid harness, you absolutely must have a 5- or 6-point belt with a properly installed anti-sub strap.
Emre
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Thanks for the discussion. Well, I'm now not sure. Paul at Avalon said that these bars were crash tested w/ 300lbs dummies and they passed with flying colors. I'm not sure that means they were rolled, but I would probably have major problems if I rolled at 120+mph anyways. Do you really think I should not get this? I like that it screws into the stock upper shoulder belt points and doesn't disturb any interior pieces. I'm not sure I want a roll cage yet, but I got pretty beat up last weekend at the track(sore knees).
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Originally posted by mcclaskz
Thanks for the discussion. Well, I'm now not sure. Paul at Avalon said that these bars were crash tested w/ 300lbs dummies and they passed with flying colors. I'm not sure that means they were rolled, but I would probably have major problems if I rolled at 120+mph anyways.
Thanks for the discussion. Well, I'm now not sure. Paul at Avalon said that these bars were crash tested w/ 300lbs dummies and they passed with flying colors. I'm not sure that means they were rolled, but I would probably have major problems if I rolled at 120+mph anyways.
Originally posted by mcclaskz
Do you really think I should not get this? I like that it screws into the stock upper shoulder belt points and doesn't disturb any interior pieces. I'm not sure I want a roll cage yet, but I got pretty beat up last weekend at the track(sore knees).
Do you really think I should not get this? I like that it screws into the stock upper shoulder belt points and doesn't disturb any interior pieces. I'm not sure I want a roll cage yet, but I got pretty beat up last weekend at the track(sore knees).
The only real downside of a 4-point roll-bar is you lose your back seats. In a 350Z, that's not an issue
Emre
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Re: Which harnesses to buy?
Originally posted by mcclaskz
I am considering the Sabelt/Sparco 3" 6 point harnesses. It would consist of the pull up lap belt, 48" shoulder harnesses, and dual sub-belt. Most every online store has these for ~$195. What color? I have a chrome silver, but I think red no matter what in case I catch on fire and can see it the easiest.
I am considering the Sabelt/Sparco 3" 6 point harnesses. It would consist of the pull up lap belt, 48" shoulder harnesses, and dual sub-belt. Most every online store has these for ~$195. What color? I have a chrome silver, but I think red no matter what in case I catch on fire and can see it the easiest.
Here are some links:
The Race Depot
Summit Racing
I also really love the Schroth "Profi III" and "Hybrid" lines of camlock harnesses. Check out HMS Motorsports for more info. The owner, Joe Marko, is very knowledgable about restraint systems.
Emre
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What race seat are you going with also? You can not safely mount an anti sub belt in a stock seat unless you cut a hole in it. If you just run it over the front of the seat, you defeat it's entire purpose and could cause serious injury.
I have the Schroth instruction manual here in front of me right now for the 5pt belts I just picked up. They say that the anti sub belt should be no more than 10 degrees off axis from straight up and down and the only way to do that is with a hole in the seat.
And no, you shouldn't use a 4,5, or 6pt harness for road racing without an actual roll over bar, not just a harness bar. Using them for autox with just a harness bar would be safe though. I have never seen a car flip in autox.
I have the Schroth instruction manual here in front of me right now for the 5pt belts I just picked up. They say that the anti sub belt should be no more than 10 degrees off axis from straight up and down and the only way to do that is with a hole in the seat.
And no, you shouldn't use a 4,5, or 6pt harness for road racing without an actual roll over bar, not just a harness bar. Using them for autox with just a harness bar would be safe though. I have never seen a car flip in autox.
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Thanks race, is it any different for a dual sub belt? The TeamTech 6 pt. on Avalon's site had the dual sub mounted to the front seat bolts. That is what I wanted to do. Do you think I should not get this for track use? So far I have not done an auto-x but would like to. I will probably do 5-8 track events a year, but I still want this to remain my street car. I like how I can take the bar out. All the cages I have seen obviously cut up the interior pretty bad. Can I have both and still be safe? Last weekend at VIR I saw several FDs(Rx7) with this harness bar/rear strut bar set up with harnesses. Thanks again.
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Originally posted by mcclaskz
Thanks race, is it any different for a dual sub belt?
Thanks race, is it any different for a dual sub belt?
Originally posted by mcclaskz
The TeamTech 6 pt. on Avalon's site had the dual sub mounted to the front seat bolts. That is what I wanted to do. Do you think I should not get this for track use?
The TeamTech 6 pt. on Avalon's site had the dual sub mounted to the front seat bolts. That is what I wanted to do. Do you think I should not get this for track use?
Emre
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I had an 5 point Pyrotect belt system installed. Worth every penny. A must for anyone who races or autocrosses with the leather seats! Anyone in FL or the South East region interested in having one installed should talk to Nick at N-Tech Engineering http://www.ntechengineering.com/index.cfm?model_id=10
mcclaskz probably saw him at VIR with the blue track with slicks.
He did a first class clean install putting the rear eye bolt anchors right into the rear strut bar only showing the eye.The sub bolt was through the floor below the seat. No bar needed and with the stock touring seats.
Jeff
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mcclaskz probably saw him at VIR with the blue track with slicks.
He did a first class clean install putting the rear eye bolt anchors right into the rear strut bar only showing the eye.The sub bolt was through the floor below the seat. No bar needed and with the stock touring seats.
Jeff
Tampa FL
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I have seen his Sabelt and tested it out fully at VIR! I like his install, but I like the fact that this Avalon bar can be used without any modification to the interior. I very much like that clipped setup (N-tech) how the bracket is welded to the rear strut tower. I just figured, for the price of the install, I could buy this bar, stiffen the chassis a little with it, and get the benefit of the harness. BlackFL, where is your insertion point for the sub belt located? Where are the other belts secured to? Again thank you all for the discussion.
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mcclaskz
For the lap belts, Nick used the existing lap belp mount points, just with the bolt replaced with an eye bolt. For the sub, there is no insertion point in the seat, I go just forward and down. Not the best, given the factory seats but help keeps the system in place. The great part of the install with all eye bolts, is everything can be taken out with clips for normal everyday driving and you contiune to use the factory 3 point.
So with Nick's system, most of the time was spent getting the eye bolts in the strut tower.
Jeff
BlackFLZ
For the lap belts, Nick used the existing lap belp mount points, just with the bolt replaced with an eye bolt. For the sub, there is no insertion point in the seat, I go just forward and down. Not the best, given the factory seats but help keeps the system in place. The great part of the install with all eye bolts, is everything can be taken out with clips for normal everyday driving and you contiune to use the factory 3 point.
So with Nick's system, most of the time was spent getting the eye bolts in the strut tower.
Jeff
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I am very happy with my Schroth 6-point system, installed by Piper Motorsports in Manassass, VA. See here.
I've had plenty of people tell me I need a roll bar or cage. Although I haven't ruled out getting one, I've decided that for the type of events I do (HPDEs, no racing), rolling over is relatively unlikely, and the risk is worth the added control the harnesses give me every time I go out on the track.
What I haven't heard is anyone claiming, as Kayaalp and raceboy do above, that a 6-point mounted to the seat's front mounting bolts is worse than a 4-point or could cause injury, and frankly, I don't see how that could be the case. I can see it might not work quite as well as going right through the seat, but how would it "pull the lap-belt off your lap"? Could you please elaborate, guys?
Oh BTW, the Schroth belts have a unique anti-sub system that is essentially a Z fold built into the inboard shoulder harness. This fold is firmly sealed down (glue? tape? I don't know), but in an impact it releases, giving you a little extra deceleration, but only on one side, so your torso rotates slightly. This is supposed to keep you from sliding under the lap belt. For more information, see this FAQ. This feature was one of the main reasons I decided on the Schroths. (It might also give me a little more room to maneuver when the roof is crushed down on my head, but I'm not counting on it.)
I've had plenty of people tell me I need a roll bar or cage. Although I haven't ruled out getting one, I've decided that for the type of events I do (HPDEs, no racing), rolling over is relatively unlikely, and the risk is worth the added control the harnesses give me every time I go out on the track.
What I haven't heard is anyone claiming, as Kayaalp and raceboy do above, that a 6-point mounted to the seat's front mounting bolts is worse than a 4-point or could cause injury, and frankly, I don't see how that could be the case. I can see it might not work quite as well as going right through the seat, but how would it "pull the lap-belt off your lap"? Could you please elaborate, guys?
Oh BTW, the Schroth belts have a unique anti-sub system that is essentially a Z fold built into the inboard shoulder harness. This fold is firmly sealed down (glue? tape? I don't know), but in an impact it releases, giving you a little extra deceleration, but only on one side, so your torso rotates slightly. This is supposed to keep you from sliding under the lap belt. For more information, see this FAQ. This feature was one of the main reasons I decided on the Schroths. (It might also give me a little more room to maneuver when the roof is crushed down on my head, but I'm not counting on it.)
Last edited by commasense; 09-27-2003 at 08:55 PM.
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Originally posted by commasense
What I haven't heard is anyone claiming, as Kayaalp and raceboy do above, that a 6-point mounted to the seat's front mounting bolts is worse than a 4-point or could cause injury, and frankly, I don't see how that could be the case. I can see it might not work quite as well as going right through the seat, but how would it "pull the lap-belt off your lap"? Could you please elaborate, guys?
What I haven't heard is anyone claiming, as Kayaalp and raceboy do above, that a 6-point mounted to the seat's front mounting bolts is worse than a 4-point or could cause injury, and frankly, I don't see how that could be the case. I can see it might not work quite as well as going right through the seat, but how would it "pull the lap-belt off your lap"? Could you please elaborate, guys?
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I'm tired of rolling around in my seat, so I've been looking into a PROPER harness install. The Porsche club here requires a 6 point set with the stock seat, and a 5 point set with a race seat. I think I'll go with their recommendation. A LOT of the Porsches run with harness bars, no cage. Looks like I'll have all winter to finalize plans.
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We need to be real clear on the purpose of the bars - They are NOT designed to act in any way shape or form as a roll bar. The are designed to allow the installation of a 4 to 6 point harness. These have been used in SCCA T-1 corvettes for some time now and passed technical inspection.
The company tyhat makes them for us does structural design and testing for all types of cars. These will definetent hold you in better in a roll over, BUT are not designed as a rolll bar, not advertised as such.
The company tyhat makes them for us does structural design and testing for all types of cars. These will definetent hold you in better in a roll over, BUT are not designed as a rolll bar, not advertised as such.
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Originally posted by raceboy
OK, just think about it a little and try to picture it in your head. With the lap belts running vertically, what happens as you get any forward movement? The vertical distance will decrease pulling the lap belt down. Run those same sub belts forward and they basically are just pulling the lap belt forward and letting it ride up with any forward movement. So while it's not really worse than a 4pt system, the anti sub belts are actually not doing anything for you at all.
OK, just think about it a little and try to picture it in your head. With the lap belts running vertically, what happens as you get any forward movement? The vertical distance will decrease pulling the lap belt down. Run those same sub belts forward and they basically are just pulling the lap belt forward and letting it ride up with any forward movement. So while it's not really worse than a 4pt system, the anti sub belts are actually not doing anything for you at all.
In fact, with no roll bar/cage, in a rollover that couple of inches might be an actual benefit. Also, with a 5-pt., I'd be a little concerned about the fate of the umm... family jewels. With the 6-pt., they seem to be in a safer situation.
As I said, my set up may not be as good as through the seat, but it's definitely better than nothing. If the seat were more reclined, or the mounting points were farther forward, I'd agree that the risk would be greater. But it's going too far to say that they're doing no good at all or that they're worse than nothing. IMO.
If I weren't so busy with work right now, I'd take some pictures. Maybe a little later.
Last edited by commasense; 09-30-2003 at 07:03 AM.
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I think you have too big of an image of what it really means to "submarine" under the belts. We are not talking about your entire body ending up under the dash, we are only talking about the lap belt sliding up just a few inches, may not sound like much, but once it's off the pelvic bone all that force goes into soft tissue and can cause MAJOR internal injuries. People just can't imagine the forces involved in a good impact; decell rates of 100+ G's (albeit for a fraction of a second, but that is enough). I just don't think people really appreciate the importance of safety equipment until they have gone through "the big one." For me: 1991, Big Willow, Turn 9, Formula Ford, upside down in the end, much respect learned.
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