87mm TB Project
07-09-2013, 04:53 AM
#121
soo if you can idle with good AFR and give it some rev up to where you ran out of adjustability with the MAF Table
once this is done and you want more room, do this;
If you’ve had to raise the MAF values so high that the table is maxed out you can give yourself some more head room by raising the K value via multiplying it and then multiply the entire MAF table by the inverse of that value. For example, multiply the K value by 1.2 (120%) and then multiply the ENTIRE MAF table by .8 (80%). The end result is that the vehicle will run exactly the same, but you will have more room to raise the MAF table.
Ive done this a few time on my 370z and it does work fine and then I tried this on my new setup ( Vq37HR *HR head on VHR block*)
You will have to fine tune the updated MAF table but it should be relatively close
once this is done and you want more room, do this;
If you’ve had to raise the MAF values so high that the table is maxed out you can give yourself some more head room by raising the K value via multiplying it and then multiply the entire MAF table by the inverse of that value. For example, multiply the K value by 1.2 (120%) and then multiply the ENTIRE MAF table by .8 (80%). The end result is that the vehicle will run exactly the same, but you will have more room to raise the MAF table.
Ive done this a few time on my 370z and it does work fine and then I tried this on my new setup ( Vq37HR *HR head on VHR block*)
You will have to fine tune the updated MAF table but it should be relatively close
I tried the method that you mentioned above and it did not work for me. The car simply still needs more fuel. It ran extremely lean when I did that. I think I will end up going that route though and have to add more fuel elsewhere.
07-09-2013, 05:03 AM
#122
I didn't think I would have to get into the fuel tables. I thought doing it all with the MAF would be enough, but its looking like its not. Realistically, with the custom plenum that mw9 is going to make and some longtube headers, I think we could pull 300whp on a dynojet. That would be damn good for a non-revup. It will be that much easier to make power when the engine is built then.
07-09-2013, 05:34 AM
#123
Yeah when I added my 4" intake/maf tube I had to add a lot of fuel to compensate (via UTEC)...was actually running at 92% duty cycle on the z33 injectors before upgrading to 440cc injectors. Power, and more importantly AFR, is real nice and smooth now all the way up to 7k. Just need some dyno time to fine tune when I have time.
I'm holding off on my 87mm tb until I can get the MAF voltage difference between tb/ecu sorted out. I don't have any extra Maxima 6mt ecus lying around and they're a little harder to come by than Zs...lol
I'm holding off on my 87mm tb until I can get the MAF voltage difference between tb/ecu sorted out. I don't have any extra Maxima 6mt ecus lying around and they're a little harder to come by than Zs...lol
07-09-2013, 06:30 AM
#125
I would like to take it to get dynoed once the custom plenum goes on with some headers to see where it lies. I am not getting cams until I got to build my engine. Probably go higher compression, all new bottom end (pistons, bearings, rods etc.), new upgraded valvetrain with cams and super light clutch. Hoping to rev it to 8000 to 8500. I see no reason it shouldn't make at least 320 to 330 on the low side. I don't want much more than 330 though.
07-10-2013, 02:08 AM
#129
If you’ve had to raise the MAF values so high that the table is maxed out you can give yourself some more head room by raising the K value via multiplying it and then multiply the entire MAF table by the inverse of that value. For example, multiply the K value by 1.2 (120%) and then multiply the ENTIRE MAF table by .8 (80%). The end result is that the vehicle will run exactly the same, but you will have more room to raise the MAF table.
Am I not understanding this correctly?
07-10-2013, 02:57 AM
#130
I just read this again and I may have misinterpreted it. You say multiply the K value by 1.2 then the ENTIRE MAF table by .8. The MAF table only has volts and the K-value. You can't change the volts because that is the constant. So I took this as multiple every k-value field by 1.2 and then again by .8.
Am I not understanding this correctly?
Am I not understanding this correctly?
this was a copy/paste from Uprev.
if you ran out of ajustibility with the MAF Table is it suggested to do this step.
let say your K-Fuel is 22300 ,, you multiply it by the amount you would need ,, let say you need as what the exemple say, you need 20% more
you do 22300 * 1.2 (which add 20%) = 26760
so that change the pulsewith thus giving more fuel.
then you MUST multiply by the inverse of what you did on the K-Fuel... you need now to remove 20% from the entire MAF Table . yeah Im aware that the MAF Table the volt cant be change but this isn't what that need to be changed but all the number on the right side !
soo you select everything then multiply it by 0.8 (20% less)
make sure that if you do the whole MAF Table that you are not re-selecting the same number twice ! it did happen to me once ! nightmare until I found out.
since you said that you were getting stable AFR at idle up to a certain RPM range.... this method is the one used by ProTuner and Uprev themselves.
So it does work as I did with my setup in the pass with an oversized MAF Tube.
07-10-2013, 03:33 AM
#131
this was a copy/paste from Uprev.
if you ran out of ajustibility with the MAF Table is it suggested to do this step.
let say your K-Fuel is 22300 ,, you multiply it by the amount you would need ,, let say you need as what the exemple say, you need 20% more
you do 22300 * 1.2 (which add 20%) = 26760
so that change the pulsewith thus giving more fuel.
then you MUST multiply by the inverse of what you did on the K-Fuel... you need now to remove 20% from the entire MAF Table . yeah Im aware that the MAF Table the volt cant be change but this isn't what that need to be changed but all the number on the right side !
soo you select everything then multiply it by 0.8 (20% less)
make sure that if you do the whole MAF Table that you are not re-selecting the same number twice ! it did happen to me once ! nightmare until I found out.
since you said that you were getting stable AFR at idle up to a certain RPM range.... this method is the one used by ProTuner and Uprev themselves.
So it does work as I did with my setup in the pass with an oversized MAF Tube.
if you ran out of ajustibility with the MAF Table is it suggested to do this step.
let say your K-Fuel is 22300 ,, you multiply it by the amount you would need ,, let say you need as what the exemple say, you need 20% more
you do 22300 * 1.2 (which add 20%) = 26760
so that change the pulsewith thus giving more fuel.
then you MUST multiply by the inverse of what you did on the K-Fuel... you need now to remove 20% from the entire MAF Table . yeah Im aware that the MAF Table the volt cant be change but this isn't what that need to be changed but all the number on the right side !
soo you select everything then multiply it by 0.8 (20% less)
make sure that if you do the whole MAF Table that you are not re-selecting the same number twice ! it did happen to me once ! nightmare until I found out.
since you said that you were getting stable AFR at idle up to a certain RPM range.... this method is the one used by ProTuner and Uprev themselves.
So it does work as I did with my setup in the pass with an oversized MAF Tube.
Please correct me if it seems I am doing something wrong. This tuning is pretty new to me. I appreciate everyone's advice with this too.
I didn't think it would require so much fuel, however there is a lot more air going into the engine too.
Last edited by Fixxxercask; 07-10-2013 at 03:37 AM.
07-10-2013, 08:21 AM
#132
I dont really understand why it does not work with what I told you 
because you are adding fuel with the K-fuel and reduce fuel for the same amount on the MAF Table ,. which gives you more head room on the MAF Table.
Putting more fuel through the Fuel comp. is the last place you want it to be.
Then the maxima guys are also doing that 4'' Maf tube and doesnt seem to have the problem you are getting . but it might because they still run their OEM TB. which still restrict the incomming airflow to what the TB can flow.
As for you, you are running a way bigger TB and Maf tube that I think the MAF Sensor was not specifiy for this.
Did you clean try to clean the MAF Sensor ? It might work better.
the other obtion that I see is to get a proper MAF Sensor for the job.
There is an option that Uprev / GTM can sell you.
other than that im kind of clueless because you said you were able to idle fine and rev up to 3000-3500 rpm before running out of adjustement.. ;( I wish I had the car in from of me !
because you are adding fuel with the K-fuel and reduce fuel for the same amount on the MAF Table ,. which gives you more head room on the MAF Table.
Putting more fuel through the Fuel comp. is the last place you want it to be.
Then the maxima guys are also doing that 4'' Maf tube and doesnt seem to have the problem you are getting . but it might because they still run their OEM TB. which still restrict the incomming airflow to what the TB can flow.
As for you, you are running a way bigger TB and Maf tube that I think the MAF Sensor was not specifiy for this.
Did you clean try to clean the MAF Sensor ? It might work better.
the other obtion that I see is to get a proper MAF Sensor for the job.
There is an option that Uprev / GTM can sell you.
other than that im kind of clueless because you said you were able to idle fine and rev up to 3000-3500 rpm before running out of adjustement.. ;( I wish I had the car in from of me !
07-10-2013, 12:04 PM
#133
Once I put the 4" MAF and intake on, the only way I could get it to idle and revup to 3k or so was to change the K-value from 275 to 1000 on the bottom end. To have it start at 1000 and increment properly up to 5 volts, I run out of headroom way too fast.
I have not cleaned the MAF yet. I did consider getting an aftermarket one.
The way I see it is, if I increase the K-value slightly, then flash the ECU, start the car up and look at AFR and I see it at 20. I shut the car off, go back to the table, add more to the K-value, start it up again and monitor AFR and now its at 18, that tells me that it has improved, but needs more. SO I keep on adding until the AFR was perfect at idle, but at that point the K-value was 1000. So by that logic, I don't see how only minimally increasing it will help.
I also assume it has to keep a steady increase the entire table.
I have not cleaned the MAF yet. I did consider getting an aftermarket one.
The way I see it is, if I increase the K-value slightly, then flash the ECU, start the car up and look at AFR and I see it at 20. I shut the car off, go back to the table, add more to the K-value, start it up again and monitor AFR and now its at 18, that tells me that it has improved, but needs more. SO I keep on adding until the AFR was perfect at idle, but at that point the K-value was 1000. So by that logic, I don't see how only minimally increasing it will help.
I also assume it has to keep a steady increase the entire table.
07-10-2013, 12:37 PM
#134
Once I put the 4" MAF and intake on, the only way I could get it to idle and revup to 3k or so was to change the K-value from 275 to 1000 on the bottom end. To have it start at 1000 and increment properly up to 5 volts, I run out of headroom way too fast.
I have not cleaned the MAF yet. I did consider getting an aftermarket one.
The way I see it is, if I increase the K-value slightly, then flash the ECU, start the car up and look at AFR and I see it at 20. I shut the car off, go back to the table, add more to the K-value, start it up again and monitor AFR and now its at 18, that tells me that it has improved, but needs more. SO I keep on adding until the AFR was perfect at idle, but at that point the K-value was 1000. So by that logic, I don't see how only minimally increasing it will help.
I also assume it has to keep a steady increase the entire table.
I have not cleaned the MAF yet. I did consider getting an aftermarket one.
The way I see it is, if I increase the K-value slightly, then flash the ECU, start the car up and look at AFR and I see it at 20. I shut the car off, go back to the table, add more to the K-value, start it up again and monitor AFR and now its at 18, that tells me that it has improved, but needs more. SO I keep on adding until the AFR was perfect at idle, but at that point the K-value was 1000. So by that logic, I don't see how only minimally increasing it will help.
I also assume it has to keep a steady increase the entire table.
are you saying your K-fuel has been anything between 250 to 1000 ?
Stock on the Rev-up is 27592
Stock on the HR/VHR is 26806
This come from the few car that I tuned.
If I take the Rev-up # ... your number that you should have in the K-ful should higher than 30 000++
You should read the UpRev Nissan Tuning Guide.
This would give you a good base of knowledge to tune with Uprev.
There is a section that tells you how you should tune the K-fuel then once this is done and you get a stable AFR with the AFR test map. THen you start tuning the MAF Table.
07-10-2013, 12:57 PM
#135
I received your PM 
I think we found the problem 
so you see on the let there is a small windows name K Fuel Multiplier and then on the right the MAF Table.
At idle you should be around the 1.02 V .
when setup properly at IDLE your ECU should always be trying to hit the 14.7 AFR so depending of the fuel compensation you will have to play a little bit with going up and down on those Green Number from the MAF Table.
This is why I go with my AFR Wideband (LC1 from Inovative) and log in the Rom editor with this and unplug all of the AFR sensor to get the car to run in open loop. I find it to be more accurate and faster. once the OEM sensor are connected a fine tune has to be done since they aren't detecting the same AFR but is usualy close by about .4 richer or leaner. ( 370z & 350z )
so if you get an AFR of 17.5 at 1.02 Volt *IDLE* (Maf Voltage reading)
and you want 14.7
you do 17.5 / 14.7 = 1.19047
if your Number in the MAF Table is 495 ( same as my picture)
you multiply that # by 1.19047 which will be 589.
so Higher number = more fuel
lower number = less fuel.
try this
I think we found the problem so you see on the let there is a small windows name K Fuel Multiplier and then on the right the MAF Table.
At idle you should be around the 1.02 V .
when setup properly at IDLE your ECU should always be trying to hit the 14.7 AFR so depending of the fuel compensation you will have to play a little bit with going up and down on those Green Number from the MAF Table.
This is why I go with my AFR Wideband (LC1 from Inovative) and log in the Rom editor with this and unplug all of the AFR sensor to get the car to run in open loop. I find it to be more accurate and faster. once the OEM sensor are connected a fine tune has to be done since they aren't detecting the same AFR but is usualy close by about .4 richer or leaner. ( 370z & 350z )
so if you get an AFR of 17.5 at 1.02 Volt *IDLE* (Maf Voltage reading)
and you want 14.7
you do 17.5 / 14.7 = 1.19047
if your Number in the MAF Table is 495 ( same as my picture)
you multiply that # by 1.19047 which will be 589.
so Higher number = more fuel
lower number = less fuel.
try this
07-10-2013, 01:01 PM
#136
I want to make sure that you should know the K-fuel is the first you want to tune it.
because if you jump right away on the MAF Table,
you might need more room later
which will require to do the formula about the K-Fuel & Maf Table that I mentioned in a previous post.
then you usualy endup having to fine tune the MAF Table again.
because if you jump right away on the MAF Table,
you might need more room later
which will require to do the formula about the K-Fuel & Maf Table that I mentioned in a previous post.
then you usualy endup having to fine tune the MAF Table again.
07-10-2013, 01:25 PM
#137
Yep. I realized that after re-reading some of the posts. I totally missed the K-fuel multiplier field.
So, I just messed with the values in the MAF table and got it running up to about 4k RPM with good AFR. I was going to keep going until I hit the cap in the MAF table and apply the formula to scale it.
Should I set the MAF table back to stock and just play with the multiplier to get it close then fine tune it in the MAF table from there?
So, I just messed with the values in the MAF table and got it running up to about 4k RPM with good AFR. I was going to keep going until I hit the cap in the MAF table and apply the formula to scale it.
Should I set the MAF table back to stock and just play with the multiplier to get it close then fine tune it in the MAF table from there?
07-10-2013, 01:45 PM
#138
Yep. I realized that after re-reading some of the posts. I totally missed the K-fuel multiplier field.
So, I just messed with the values in the MAF table and got it running up to about 4k RPM with good AFR. I was going to keep going until I hit the cap in the MAF table and apply the formula to scale it.
Should I set the MAF table back to stock and just play with the multiplier to get it close then fine tune it in the MAF table from there?
So, I just messed with the values in the MAF table and got it running up to about 4k RPM with good AFR. I was going to keep going until I hit the cap in the MAF table and apply the formula to scale it.
Should I set the MAF table back to stock and just play with the multiplier to get it close then fine tune it in the MAF table from there?
yeah Idealy as a base tune, I would recommend you to keep the stock MAF Table value and only tune the K-Fuel first ...
My AFR test map is setup at 12.54 AFR everywhere BUT the cranking area ( 0-1000 RPM ) which is at 14.7 AFR
and then I do a small pull to see where the AFR sit ,,, if it need more or less fuel ,, I change it live with the Rom editor then do another quick pull (up to 3000-3250rpms)
when the afr is stable very close to 12.54 , UPREV suggest to test with an electrical load which mean to put your fan to max , heater seats / lights / radio with loud noise !! and then do another pull ,, then adjust from there ..
its not a long process once you know what you are doing which takes like 5 mins .
once this is done you are ready to tune the MAF Table.
Last edited by XChacalX; 07-10-2013 at 01:46 PM.
07-10-2013, 02:21 PM
#139
Thanks again for all your help. I totally understand now. I should have no problem getting this working now. Unfortunately, I just put the stock TB and intake back on. I have another race coming up soon and I putting the car on the dyno tomorrow. I need to make sure I'm not over 265whp. My race is in 2 weeks at Mid Ohio. After that race, I will put it back on again and make more adjustments. I have a very good understanding of what to do now too. I have been talking with Jared from Uprev too via email. I am very confident I can get it working 100%. Once that happens, I will buy some PPE longtubes and wait for mw9 to make the custom plenum. When he is done, I want to slap all that on the car and see where we are at.
07-10-2013, 03:14 PM
#140
Jared is super smart, one of the other tuners tuned my 350z after the NA build, I was disappointed by numbers and a bad stalling issue, so I asked for Jared to tune it and he made another 30 hp and 45 tq and the stalling issue was mostly resolved. He really knew his stuff and I really respect him. That being said, he might be the only person working there I respect...