M-train

iTrader: (3)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-30227-kit

I know you would have to fab up some type of upper intake manifold, but fabbing is kinda a way of life for some of us.

With something like this you get:

Throttle body
ECU
Injectors
Wideband 02 sensor
All of the wiring.
Fuel pump
Pressure regulator
Map sensor
IAT Sensor
TPS Sensor
IAC Motor

Anyway, I though this would be good to at least discuss.

Conway_160

iTrader: (1)

Why??? Dont go to a carb style intake if you want some like that just go itb's.

travlee

iTrader: (8)

i could think of better things to spend 2k on rather than this....typical stupid noob question

M-train

iTrader: (3)

My reasoning would be that its all self contained, and gives you more for the same price as some of the stand along setups like Haltech.

A sheet metal upper intake looks like it would be super easy to fab up for these engines.

Also, there are more versions of this setup, I think "FAST" is one that is self learning, also Holley, and Edelbrock.

Individual throttle body would be fine, but what would be the overall cost vs something like the MSD?

I don't have a dog in the fight, or stocks in any of these companies, I'm just curious why something like this wouldn't work?

Here is kinda how I'm seeing this.

I can buy something like a Haltech stand alone setup for roughly around 2k. Then I still have to buy a bigger throttle body if I want the most HP for my money[the MSD, and most other entry level stand alone setups can support around 500-600hp so there is no need to change the throttle body in the kit] then I will have to buy a bigger mass air meter, and possibly a bigger fuel pump, and possibly bigger fuel injectors, all of which come with the MSD setup.

travlee

iTrader: (8)

what mods do you have already... here is a secret .... you have to get the air out faster then you get it in.

with your statement there are too many "possibilities"

M-train

iTrader: (3)

Lets see, here is the engine I just built.........Wiesco pistons, Eagle rods, ARP everything.


Oh, and about getting the air in, and out, here is my 67 Mustang fastback with a 540fe engine, and a Procharger F2, also, there isn't a kit for that supercharger with that engine so I fabbed all of the brackets, and built the engine, and did all of the body work, and painted the car, ect, etc.



Here is my Cobra with the 427FE engine I built.



Need more, there are a few cars I have left out, but here is a secret, don't let someone's join date fool you into thinking they are a "noob", as in they haven't ever turned a wrench, as sometimes they just might be a ringer.

travlee

iTrader: (8)

those are just cars... there is no proof . more power to ya though sir

M-train

iTrader: (3)

Regarding my statement about too many possibility's, since this forum is about making NA power we will assume that we are speaking about an engine that has higher than stock compression, cams, and free flowing exhaust.

M-train

iTrader: (3)

So since I built the engine in all of those cars [and more] I guess what you mean by "proof" is that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding making power?

Cux350z

iTrader: (162)

just swap an LS

travlee

iTrader: (8)

i never said that did i? i can post pics all day long saying i built that too....how would you know? try the msd setup, let us know what you come up with

cashmoney03

No they haven't. That would require thinking beyond the usual forced induction answer.

With that being said, I can't think it would be beneficial over a general stand alone but am curious given I'm slowly putting together my own NA build. I've long wondered if the fuel supply and engine management system is what's holding back these engines from making decent power. Compression is there, air flow is there, rpm's are there, just doesn't make sense why these engines don't respond well naturally aspirated.

Conway_160

iTrader: (1)

How are you going to connect the carb to the lower intake runners? If your dead set on NA with the vq and want 350+ whp. High reving stroker with ITB'S is about only way to get their and thats a easy 10k with out engine management, machine work, other bs you will need.

Jennifer 2

M-train, this seems like a regressive step. Wasn’t throttle body injection used as a stop gap measure for a few years in the late 70s early 80 to transition the big iron V8s of the era from carburetors to proper port fuel injection?

One of the problems you would face in fabricating a manifold, plenum, port runners etc would be that you are flowing ‘wet air’ (gasoline mixed with air). With all types of port injection, only air, no gasoline passes through the manifold plumbing. Dry air, molecules unburdened by the huge weight of gasoline molecules is happy air. It can zoom along, turn sharp corners, instantly react to changes of throttle position, manifold vacuum, etc and easily provide equal filling of each cylinder. Air wetted with gasoline is not happy air; its reaction time is slowed by the burden of carrying heavy gasoline molecules. Also directional changes will cause some of the gasoline to fall out of suspension. All this will cause some uneven filling from cylinder to cylinder.

With the low hood line you may not have a lot of room to accommodate an ideal manifold design.

M-train

iTrader: (3)

A lot of that was debated on some other forums I've been reading over the years [wet intake vs dry].

Atomized gasoline going through an intake has an intercooling effect. I've got two [and, another on the way] carb'd forced induction engines, and the net effect is that my air charge is cooler than on my friends "dry" fuel injected setup, usually around 30degs.

Trying to address another issue, and that is the issue of fitment, the MSD type setup can be moved around just like you would a throttle body. I honestly don't know how far away you could move it from the plenum.

Jennifer 2

Thanks for that M-train. I was under the impression that this technology was pretty short lived and was completely eclipsed by other (all dry air) systems in motor sports and production cars. My dad was a fabricator like yourself, and had fitted a 1980s Cadillac throttle body fuel injection to the V8 engine of an old LaSalle. This was to keep the fuel/air ratio constant as the racecar style LaSalle zoomed from relatively lower elevation all the way to the top of Pikes Peak. Dad had built him an adjustable jet carburetor years earlier that worked surprisingly well, but the owner wanted a more elegant solution.

If there is a cooling of the atomized gasoline vapor, than some of it will condense exasperating the uneven cylinder mixing effect. So I guess you win some and lose some with that setup.

It’s the drop in air pressure as it rushes through the carburetor venturi that causes a lot of cooling. (Airplanes need the ability to apply carb heat, American V8s had a thermal controlled hot spot in the manifold under the carb etc.) This throttle body doesn’t speed the air through a venturi at full open, so will you see the same cooling effect as a carburetor?

M-train

iTrader: (3)

Yes, as the "wet" gasoline running through the manifold will help keep the intake charge cooler as well as the intake itself.

My question is can you run these type fuel injection setups sideways. If that is possible, then it could open up a few more doors. I will try to find an answer on some of my other forums. Since there are no fuel bowls like on a carb then it should work out fine to mount them sideways.

Also, this would definitely cure the lack of bigger throttle body size that seems to be a barrier on the Nissan forums. I did get an Email back regarding using the GM 90mm throttle body part number 12615495.

This was from Voltage Drop, "Yes I make that adapter harness, getting the tb mounted and plugged up is not the issue. the issue is the stock ecu dont like the tb. even with uprev osiris people was not able to make it work right."

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Lol if you want to run the risk of running a cylinder lean or one rich, then a wet intake is just fine.
The only way you'd truly know is if you ran individual thermocouples.

Keep in mind, you're talking about tuning a small displacement aiming for High RPM v6, not a carbed FI setup. I'm assuming you set this up on engines that were designed for use with carbs. I sure as f*** wouldn't risk running an expensive *** vq with my diy intake deciding what fuel goes where, without some serious R/D.

One could always leave the stock tb attached to the harness and mount it somewhere and install a cable TB. If this is for a race car checking/calibrating the TB's to be in the same positions should be something completely doable between races.

I think an ITB setup is worth far more than one large TB for NA applications. Having a relatively straight path is always going to increase Throttle response, and help intake velocities.
Running a wet intake EFI setup with a single large TB seems like a waste of time. I mean, it would work for sure, but I think it would underperform and have multiple risks.

Although, that being said, setting up your own standalone seems worth it if you want to make NA power. But even then you are loosing cam timing control.

The big name stand alone systems have been optimized, and you have zero wiring to do. I'm also pretty sure the new Haltech can do external TB, and I know the AEM infinity can for sure (Jerryd87 runs it, and has a cable tb). Those would be very similar in price. Considering the fact that for NA all you'd really need more is a basic fuel pump (under 200$, or 99$ if you just want to go simple with a 255), return system, and the most basic of injectors, the cost vs risk/development time just isn't worth it.