You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!
Initial quality is just that. It's a survey taken after only 90 days of ownership. That doesn't necessarily (and in many cases doesn't) correlate with long term reliability. How many here keep their cars for for only 90 days? Even some of the most prolific car buyers on this board don't do that. The Big 3 build a ton of vehicles that have below average long term reliability and few that are the most reliable, compared to the Japanese.
The problem remains that most americans are idiots and don't bother actually checking the facts before they go and buy foreign made cars! Toyota has had the most recalls in the last few years, but I see you own a Prius, so you should know this. Toyota has also had executives arrested by their government because they REFUSED to issue recalls when they knew people were getting killed in their vehicles. However, people continue to perpetuate the rumor that jap cars are the best. Mostly because most people have a hard time admitting that they've been taken (which I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, don't you?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwerdna
"No U.S.-based car brand finished in the top ten. The closest were Ford's (F, Fortune 500) three domestic brands - Ford, Lincoln and Mercury - which all had average reliability. Lincoln ranked 11th, just behind Kia.
Ford's trucks and truck-based SUVs, such as the Ford F-250 pick-up and Mercury Mountaineer, dragged down the company's overall performance ratings.
"Excluding those, Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers," the magazine said in an announcement.
For General Motors (GM, Fortune 500), the best ranking overall brand was Buick, which was 18th with average overall reliability. A quarter of GM's products still rank below average in reliability, though, according to the magazine.
All three of Chrysler's brands - Jeep, Dodge and Chrysler - had worse than average overall reliability, according to the magazine. Two-thirds of Chrysler products are below-average in reliability, the magazine said.
The Chrysler Sebring Convertible has the worst reliability of any model in the survey. Sebring owners, on average, had 283% more problems with their car than the average vehicle in the survey..."
How accurate can this rating be when it's coming from a magazine that accepts money for advertisement from the companies that they are rating? JD Powers had their own list of rankings that was posted on this site and they had cars from the big three in the top ten. I would tend to believe their list over any list made by Money, Road and Track or Motor Trend.
Ranking Change Nameplate Problems Per 100 Vehicles
1 - Porsche 87
2 +7 Infiniti 98
3 -1 Lexus 99
4 +1 Mercedes-Benz 104
(tie) +2 Toyota 104
6 +2 Mercury 109
7 -3 Honda 110
8 +2 Ford 112
(tie) -2 Jaguar 112
10 +16 Audi 113
(tie) +15 Cadillac 113
(tie) +5 Chevrolet 113
13 -1 Hyundai 114
(tie) +8 Pontiac 114
15 -12 Lincoln 115
16 -2 Buick 118
Industry Average 118
17 - Acura 119
(tie) -5 Kia 119
19 - Nissan 124
(tie) -4 Volvo 124
21 - BMW 126
22 -4 GMC 127
(tie) +12 Mazda 127
24 +7 Volkswagen 128
25 +8 Hummer 132
26 -5 Subaru 133
27 -16 Scion 138
28 +2 Dodge 141
29 -2 Chrysler 142
30 -1 Mitsubishi 149
(tie) -10 Saab 149
32 -4 Suzuki 152
33 -14 Saturn 157
34 +1 Land Rover 161
35 n/a Mini 163
36 -4 Jeep 167
Isuzu and Smart were not ranked because of small sample sizes.
Your point being? 160,000 > 9000 ( and you still bought one?? Do you consider yourself trendy or just a sheep)
After a National Highway Transportation Agency investigation into sudden stalls reported by Toyota Prius owners, Toyota has initiated a worldwide recall of 160,000 of the cars. Affected cars are from 2004 and early 2005. Toyota calls it a Voluntary Special Service Campaign, which will amount to a firmware upgrade at the dealership. The problem stems from a programming error that can activate all the warning lights, causing the car to think its engine has failed. The car enters a fail-safe mode in which it runs under electric power only, giving the driver enough time to pull over to the side of the road.
WASHINGTON - Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling nearly 1 million vehicles across the globe to replace faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel.
- ONE MORE-
Toyota reliability and recalls
Periodically, a number of subscribers claim that Consumer Reports must be biased in favor of Toyota products, and most-recently cite a rash of well-publicized vehicle recalls as “proof” that our mostly very high scores for Toyotas are not accurate. The truth is, we aren’t biased either for or against any brand.
Every vehicle we test is judged against its peers in our road testing. While reliability scores (available to ConsumerReports.org subscribers) from our subscriber surveys serve as one of the criteria for a CR Recommendation, the scores aren’t counted in our overall performance Ratings. Derived from the Annual Questionnaire of our approximately 6 million magazine and Web site subscribers, CR's reliability Ratings represent the subscriber-reported experiences on those cars they themselves own.
Toyota does seem to have had more than its share of recalls lately. In July, Toyota recalled more than 350,000 Highlander and Lexus RX SUVs made between 2004 and 2006. In May, some 170,000 ‘04-’06 Priuses were recalled. Last year, 345,000 ’04-’05 Sienna minivans were recalled. Those are big numbers, but then again, Toyota is a huge manufacturer with a broad product line. Other large manufacturers, such as Ford and GM, have historically had far worse recall numbers than Toyota.
Recalls may not affect our reliability scores because a serious problem crops up too rarely to tip the balance in our reliability survey. A few years ago, we heard from readers and read on forums about a sludge problem with Toyota’s 3.0-liter V6. The people who experienced it were rightly ticked off about it, but that particular grievance didn’t show up often enough in our subscriber survey to hurt the overall score, especially when other components of that model had very few problems. Another Toyota issue, with the 2003 4Runner’s 4.0-liter V6, did show up when it was new, and we noted it in our various mentions of that SUV.
We have certainly noted--and duly reported in our annual April story on Reliability trends that many new cars, Toyotas among them, tend to have some problems in their first year of production. What distinguishes the leading Japanese brands--Honda, Toyota, and Subaru--is that those manufacturers tend to fix those problems fairly quickly. (from CR)
__________________
SOLD:03 Brickyard Z, CURRENTLY: 09 JSB C6 vette and a 08 Yamaha R1
The problem remains that most americans are idiots and don't bother actually checking the facts before they go and buy foreign made cars! Toyota has had the most recalls in the last few years, but I see you own a Prius, so you should know this. Toyota has also had executives arrested by their government because they REFUSED to issue recalls when they knew people were getting killed in their vehicles. However, people continue to perpetuate the rumor that jap cars are the best. Mostly because most people have a hard time admitting that they've been taken (which I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, don't you?).
I've checked the facts and I prefer to stick w/vehicles and brands that tend to have at least average reliability, if not better. Sure, I know many people who bought VWs w/o looking at reliability ratings and they ended up being (not surprisingly) unreliable.
I don't know of any Toyota executives being arrested by the Japanese government for refusing to issue recalls. You must be confusing them w/Mitsubishi.
I don't have recall numbers off hand but for 2007, Toyota recalled fewer vehicles than in 2006.
How accurate can this rating be when it's coming from a magazine that accepts money for advertisement from the companies that they are rating?
Who are you talking about? Consumer Reports accepts NO ADVERTISING and NO MONEY from companies. Go look at an issue of Consumer Reports. The only ads that are in there are from CR itself.
Quote:
JD Powers had their own list of rankings that was posted on this site and they had cars from the big three in the top ten. I would tend to believe their list over any list made by Money, Road and Track or Motor Trend.
Ranking Change Nameplate Problems Per 100 Vehicles
Here you go again cherry picking and posting only INITIAL QUALITY (http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?id=2008063). I ask you again how many people only keep their cars for 90 days? It's just INITIAL QUALITY, NOT reliability.
I personally don't trust JD Power very much and find CR's reliability ratings to be a lot more accurate, esp. since they identify the problem spots, problem model years and go back a lot further than 3 years (which is all JD Power does for the "VDS", Vehicle Dependability Study). See http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2008115. 3 years isn't long enough. How many people keep their cars for only 3 years? How many people are driving cars older than 3 years?
Guess what? Although JD Power calls the Prius a compact car (even though the EPA doesn't), it was their most dependable compact car.
Yep. I know about the Prius recalls. I'm sure at least one of your vehicles, past and present have had recalls. There have been no recalls on the Prius batteries even though they sold over a million of them worldwide.
Unrelated to reliability, per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...406/overview/: "For the fifth year in a row, the gas-electric Toyota Prius hybrid tops our list of the most satisfying models, with 93 percent of owners giving it the highest mark. This was closely followed by the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (92) and the new Mini Cooper Clubman (91)."
__________________
04 DB 350Z Enthusiast 5AT; 06 white Toyota Prius package #7 (NL)
you are a complete idiot. GM cars are fine, with perfect reliability. maybe you should learn how to maintain a car and then get back.
jesus, you are talking about reliability, but your driving an early model 350z?
GM cars have nicer interiors than any toyota you throw at it. they are just as reliable and gas mileage is barely any less(unless you buy a very homo car like a prius).
you are a complete idiot. GM cars are fine, with perfect reliability.
Spoken like a true GM owner. What planet have you been living on for the past 20 or so years? Here's another hint, don't say anything online you wouldn't say to someone's face
Spoken like a true GM owner. What planet have you been living on for the past 20 or so years? Here's another hint, don't say anything online you wouldn't say to someone's face
you are a complete idiot. GM cars are fine, with perfect reliability. maybe you should learn how to maintain a car and then get back.
jesus, you are talking about reliability, but your driving an early model 350z?
GM cars have nicer interiors than any toyota you throw at it. they are just as reliable and gas mileage is barely any less(unless you buy a very homo car like a prius).
Good lord! The statistics from very large sample sizes don't support your statements. My parents have owned 3 GM cars. They were all crap and had nothing to do w/maintenance or lack of. GM execs have been making claims that their cars are competitive w/the Japanese for ages. I've seen the compiled video snippets of them making such statements over MANY years.
The only "GM" car is the most reliable car is the Pontiac Vibe (twin of the Toyota Matrix). There's whole boatload of GM vehicles in the least reliable column ranging from the Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice to the V8 Cadillac STS.
According to CR, "for General Motors (GM, Fortune 500), the best ranking overall brand was Buick, which was 18th with average overall reliability. A quarter of GM's products still rank below average in reliability..."
I bought the Z at a time when there was no reliability data on it yet. I took a gamble that it'd be ok since I had an 02 Maxima (of which prior years had good reliability). Nissan at the time had an ok (but not great) reliability record. There were no other models in the picture for me at the time in the price and class of car I was looking at. I didn't want to chance it on version 1.0 (aka first model year).
__________________
04 DB 350Z Enthusiast 5AT; 06 white Toyota Prius package #7 (NL)
I have a 94 Impala SS and a 95.I love them both but other then my b-bodies i'll have to agree with you 90's were like the 80's not much there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbj15
This is where it gets complicated. Is it less expensive to do a bailout, keeping people in jobs, paying taxes with benefits and the slight possibility of GM making it work? Or that same number of people being on unemployment and getting benefits and compensation from the government for an unknown period of time? How many thousands of people are employed by GM here in the US? I know it would cripple Michigan to an even greater degree, but I'm sure the effects of GM going the way of the dinosaur would be widely felt across the country. I think the effects of collapse would be so big it is very hard to quantify.
I am trying to figure out one vehicle they produced in the 90's that has had any staying power besides the C5. Every car that comes to mind is generic and non dis-script. Anyone have a car (Not SUV) they can think of that was great?
Honda had the Accord, Civic and Odyssey
Toyota the Camry
Ford? I guess the Taurus
Chrysler the mini van
GM: I've got nothing...the interiors, fit and finish were crap. I loved the wide body grand prix in high school but when I see and sit in one now it is just blah...Looks like America's car industry is paying for its sins in the 90's now.
Spoken like a true GM owner. What planet have you been living on for the past 20 or so years? Here's another hint, don't say anything online you wouldn't say to someone's face
spoken like a true GM owner? if GM owners say they have perfect reliability, wouldnt that be a good thing?
i say that to plenty of peoples faces?
i own a 1994 pontiac bonneville with 146k miles. There are NO problems with it.
my parents have a 1990 Pontiac Transport SE.... No problems other than the usual, weve replaced the window motors and other usual problems with older cars.
my dad has a 2006 Sierra 2500HD. No problems at all. Never had one.
My grandmother has a 1992 Buick LeSabre. No problems at all.
My Grandfather had a GMC sierra. like a 1998 i believe. No problems with that.
see where im going with this?
like i said learn to take car of your car and it will take care of you. you guys are ridiculous. Have you ever thought that a vast majority of americans own GM products considering they have been around longer in the US and are much more abundant than imports???? So the statistics are flawed not to mention i dont give 2 shits about some survey.
spoken like a true GM owner? if GM owners say they have perfect reliability, wouldnt that be a good thing?
i say that to plenty of peoples faces?
i own a 1994 pontiac bonneville with 146k miles. There are NO problems with it.
my parents have a 1990 Pontiac Transport SE.... No problems other than the usual, weve replaced the window motors and other usual problems with older cars.
my dad has a 2006 Sierra 2500HD. No problems at all. Never had one.
My grandmother has a 1992 Buick LeSabre. No problems at all.
My Grandfather had a GMC sierra. like a 1998 i believe. No problems with that.
see where im going with this?
like i said learn to take car of your car and it will take care of you. you guys are ridiculous. Have you ever thought that a vast majority of americans own GM products considering they have been around longer in the US and are much more abundant than imports???? So the statistics are flawed not to mention i dont give 2 shits about some survey.
Hell i agree with you my parents had a 89 Pontiac Grand Am 189K miles back in the day never burnt a quart of oil nor any problems.
I myself have a first year production Lexus and it was garbage, recalls galore, Sunroof track was changed twice, CD player died"scratched up my dash", 4 new tires bubbles galore, headlights twice because of condensation and computer ECU had to be changed because of hesisation...
Every time i had to take time off from work for these problems ... I love the car but damn Lexus left a sour taste in my mouth for good
spoken like a true GM owner? if GM owners say they have perfect reliability, wouldnt that be a good thing?
i say that to plenty of peoples faces?
i own a 1994 pontiac bonneville with 146k miles. There are NO problems with it.
my parents have a 1990 Pontiac Transport SE.... No problems other than the usual, weve replaced the window motors and other usual problems with older cars.
my dad has a 2006 Sierra 2500HD. No problems at all. Never had one.
My grandmother has a 1992 Buick LeSabre. No problems at all.
My Grandfather had a GMC sierra. like a 1998 i believe. No problems with that.
see where im going with this?
like i said learn to take car of your car and it will take care of you. you guys are ridiculous. Have you ever thought that a vast majority of americans own GM products considering they have been around longer in the US and are much more abundant than imports???? So the statistics are flawed not to mention i dont give 2 shits about some survey.
I'd say you're really lucky or you're just omitting things that really were problems. Back in the April 05 issue of Consumer Reports, here's a funny quote:
"We're also surprised at what some readers consider 'reliable'. Phillip Salley, of Del Mar, Calif., told us this Corvette was the most reliable car he'd ever owned in 40 years. Even so, he had replaced brake rotors, the muffler, an air-conditioner control and a wheel bearing - all within the first 44,000 miles."
Huh? GM market share in the US is below 30% now. That's not a "vast majority".
I posted about our experience w/our last GM product at http://priuschat.com/forums/other-ca...tml#post574614. The problems had nothing to do w/"taking care" of the car. We don't treat our Toyotas any better and they don't have such problems and leak transmission fluid despite several repair attempts.
GM vehicles are FAR from perfect. I wish I could find the thread from one of the Corvette forums where someone w/a brand new C6 had some serious belt misalignment which caused a ton of damage and fluids all over the places. You think that had something to do w/not "taking care" of the car?
The Solstice, Sky and CTS I believe share the same differential which was a piece of crap. One guy talks about it at http://my350z.com/forum/other-vehicl...ot-good-3.html and I've seen other common complaints about it.
__________________
04 DB 350Z Enthusiast 5AT; 06 white Toyota Prius package #7 (NL)
I can't believe you consider replacing brake rotors at or before 44k a reliability issue on a corvette. Not to mention the muffler could easily have just been damaged from road debris or driver error.
No kidding. Do some decent tracking and your rotors will be shot in a few thousand miles. The rotors on the Z don't last any longer. And let's not get into oil consumption and tranny issues.
I agree.I hav'nt had a chance to read the whole thread yet some maybe you guys already hit this subject as far as reliability goes.I'm a mechanic by trade and what goes on in the back is'nt close to what most would expect.In my experiance 90% of the time a vehicle is a problem vehicle.its the technician whos working on it making mistakes in fixing it or diagnosing the problem not the vehicle.Most places pay flat rate which in my experiance turns people money hungry.Which makes them fly threw the jobs without care.A friend of mine is in a Chevy dealer for example.Nice guy but I would'nt let him touch my vehicle's.He got a chevy pick-up in last week.Customer complaint was it died going down the highway.He tried to start it in the lot found,cranking but no catch.Checked fuel pressure at the rail found none.It was 2006 still under warrenty he said it needed a fuelpump.Overnighted the fuel pump,removed the bed to install it.Then tried to start it-nothing.still crank no catch.He noticed when he had the pump out the fuel was very low.He then added 5gallons,the truck fired right up.The customer was without there truck for 3days because they ran out of fuel.The customer still thinks it was the pump,the tech moves to the next job with no recoarse.How does that look in the eyes of the owner of the truck?What a piece of **** it needed a fuel pump
after 2yrs.Stuff happens like this from time to time and i've made mistakes as well but i care and am pissed that I made a mistake.Other tech's get there paycheck and don't mind.If GM did something about this mentality they would be much better off.
I'am a Chevy fan and have all chevy's in my driveway.I keep up with regular maint and have no problems.I've worked for many different dealers and on my experiance found BMW to be the most customer unfriendly wallet sucking car ever.But they have many implaments in place to keep the customers happy and in the clouds
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man
Every car maker has lemons. Just some more than others.
spoken like GM fanboy
