Official: I Hate The Toyota Prius Thread

[Ziggyrama]

Personally, I don't like Prius but not because of it's looks, perforamnce or the driver stereotype. I have a problem with the Prius because it is a symbol of environmentally friendly car that is supposed to be semi practical and it is supposed to be cost effective. The truth is, and this has been analyzed and proven over and over again, that Prius is neither.

Look up the factory that produces the batteries in Canada and you'll find that it is devastating to the environment. Yes, the factory produces other things as well and the battery components are just a subset of it's production but it is undoubtedly contributing to one of the most toxic plants in the world. This is just the start. Look up the journey that the battery must take before it makes its way into the car. It starts in North America, goes into Europe, than Asia, and than back into North America. So, what's the carbon footprint of that? Prius and environmentally friendly = FAIL.

So, let's talk about economics. So, how long does it take to break EVEN if you purchase a Prius? 7 or 8 years? Well, what's the expected life span of the battery? 100K miles or so, right? and what is the average cost of replacement of that battery? 5K+ or so, right? So, how is Prius costing me less? Economics and Prius = FAIL

In the end, Prius is a fashion statement for the people that want everybody else to know that they care. Just like those Lance Armstrong rubber wrist bands that let everybody know that you're a casual supported of some cause you know almost nothing about. Good for you.

The truth is, if you really care about the environment, you should buy a basic model Honda Civic with auto tranny that gets insanely good gas mileage and cost about 10K less than Prius. Its carbon foot print is very small from the initial production cycle down the when it's thrown into the compactor. The problem is that no one will know. So, to all of the Prius owners, you can drive what you wish but at least cut the hypocritical bull crap about how you're saving the environment and us catless exhaust, dyno soup thirsty car owners are the scourge of the earth. My Z gets a better gas mileage every week than most minivans. Live with that.

[cwerdna]

Sigh... more and more misinformation.

Originally Posted by Ziggyrama

P I have a problem with the Prius because it is a symbol of environmentally friendly car that is supposed to be semi practical and it is supposed to be cost effective. The truth is, and this has been analyzed and proven over and over again, that Prius is neither.

Wrong! Too much of you believing moron/shill CNW/Art Spinella and the junk science that refuses to die. That garbage has been thoroughly debunked MANY times. See links further down.

Look up the factory that produces the batteries in Canada and you'll find that it is devastating to the environment.

The bogus story about the Sudbury nickel plant has been retracted. See http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/a...a-factory.html.

Originally Posted by Ziggyrama

Look up the journey that the battery must take before it makes its way into the car. It starts in North America, goes into Europe, than Asia, and than back into North America. So, what's the carbon footprint of that? Prius and environmentally friendly = FAIL.

Wrong again! See http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf and the rest of the links at http://my350z.com/forum/7043498-post72.html.

How about the carbon footprint break even point being at 20,000 km (12,427 miles)?

Originally Posted by Ziggyrama

So, let's talk about economics. So, how long does it take to break EVEN if you purchase a Prius? 7 or 8 years? Well, what's the expected life span of the battery? 100K miles or so, right? and what is the average cost of replacement of that battery? 5K+ or so, right? So, how is Prius costing me less? Economics and Prius = FAIL

More misinformation. http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/...r-hybrids.html mentions 3.5 years. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...wner-costs.htm (you'll need a membership to see this page) mentions a 1 year payback. It also mentions a $2000 cost savings over a 5 year period.

If you go to http://www.intellichoice.com/ and select and 09 Prius vs. an 09 automatic Camry, you'll see that the 5-year total ownership cost of the Prius is $4930 LOWER.

It's not surprising that on Intellichoice, it won these: Best Overall Value of the Year - OVERALL CAR UNDER 24000, Highest Retained Value Winner, Lowest Fuel Costs Winner, Lowest Operating Costs Winner, Lowest Ownership Costs Winner.

Why does it always need to be about payback? How much does a sunroof, stereo or a V8 engine save you? They don't save you any money.

The battery pack is warranted for 10 year/150K miles on California and the 7 other CARB states. The government has done some long term testing of hybrids at http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml. You can see two Priuses previous gen passed 160K miles and needed no battery replacement. Two current gens passed 120K miles also w/no battery replacement. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse4.htm hit 349,531 miles before the car's life was cut short.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04...175-000-miles/ and http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/04/f...new-york-stre/ mentions that 18 Ford Escape hybrid taxi each have passed 175K miles in less than 2 years.

http://autos.canada.com/green/story....3-8289842450df had a previous gen that passed 400K km (248K miles) w/no hybrid component failures.

As for the replacement cost, it's $2588 now. See http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hy...batteries.html. However, let's say you make it to 200K miles and need a replacement. Does it make sense to shell out full price for a new replacement battery or to spend $500-$1500 to buy one from a wrecked Prius?

Originally Posted by Ziggyrama

The truth is, if you really care about the environment, you should buy a basic model Honda Civic with auto tranny that gets insanely good gas mileage and cost about 10K less than Prius.

The cheapest Civic auto starts at MSRP of $16,105. The Prius starts at $22,000. That's not $10K.

As for "insanely good gas mileage", when Consumer Reports tested that Civic w/automatic, they got 18 city/43 highway, 28 mpg overall. The Prius got 35 city/50 highway, 44 overall. That's 57% better overall mileage. (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...ient-cars-206/ has the Prius results.)

It's great to capture kinetic energy that would otherwise be wasted in the form of useless heat and brake dust and repurpose it later. There have been many documented cases of Priuses still on the original front brake pads at 100K miles w/plenty of life left. That's a significant savings right there not reelected in fuel costs.

http://hybridexperience.com/document...l%20Report.pdf mentions "Of particular note, the driver of the Toyota Prius stated that when his old Ford Crown Victoria had reached 200,000 kilometres, the brakes had already been replaced three times. However, the Toyota Prius has now been driven over 200,000 kilometres and to date has not had any replacement costs associated with the brakes. This represents a significant savings in maintenance costs."

From looking at the maintenance records of the aforementioned high mileage Priuses that were tested by the government at http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml, it appears none of them needed any brake pad or shoe replacement.

[Divergent13]

Originally Posted by Pat1USMC

Cwerdna, I can't believe you put so much time and effort into your posts. Good on you, but facts will NOT change some people's opinions, no matter how wrong or misinformed they are. They'll just come back will a reply with "pansy" and "bitchass" in it a couple times. Its amazing how angry people get at Priuses. Who cares? Do the drivers really stop you on the road to lecture you about what you're driving? Its like the gaybashers who think all gay guys are going to hit on them and rape them.

+1. Can't believe how many idiots we have on this forum.

[Sensi09]

Prius and hybrid civics have their place. 40-50mpg is badass.

You know who I see driving slow most of the time....fixed up cars, 350Zs included.

[Steven622]

I drive slow because cops love sporty looking cars, and "fixed up" cars too.

[andycapp]

First off, cwerdna, I was to let you know that you make some great points and I agree with many of them. I wanted to take a second to respond to a few of the points you made in your earlier statement and respond with an opinion that surely no one care about.

Originally Posted by cwerdna

The cheapest Civic auto starts at MSRP of $16,105. The Prius starts at $22,000. That's not $10K.

I think close to a $10k price difference is a fair assessment of the price difference between the two. It's damn near impossible to find a stripped Prius (a former co-worker looked for 4 months a few years ago before gas got expensive to find one with zero options when there were plenty on lots to be had with NAV and the rest of the goodies).

Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but looking at my local dealer stock seems to indicate that base models are out-numbered 7:1 compared Touring models that all start at $28k.

Let the $10k argument go, it's not one of your strong points.

Originally Posted by cwerdna

It's great to capture kinetic energy that would otherwise be wasted in the form of useless heat and brake dust and repurpose it later. There have been many documented cases of Priuses still on the original front brake pads at 100K miles w/plenty of life left. That's a significant savings right there not reelected in fuel costs.

http://hybridexperience.com/document...l%20Report.pdf mentions "Of particular note, the driver of the Toyota Prius stated that when his old Ford Crown Victoria had reached 200,000 kilometres, the brakes had already been replaced three times. However, the Toyota Prius has now been driven over 200,000 kilometres and to date has not had any replacement costs associated with the brakes. This represents a significant savings in maintenance costs."

A bit of anecdotal evidence again (maybe I use that phrase too much), but most Prius drivers are at least mild hypermilers (many of them avid) and I think that will go quite a ways to explain the brake pad usage rather than the 'regenerative brake savings.' Using techniques like 'forced auto stop' and 'pulse and glide' will certainly reduce brake pad usage in any vehicle. I would attribute longer break life in a few cars to techniques like those rather than the massive savings with regenerative braking. I'm sure the regenerative braking slows the car down a bit, but those would have to be some big coils to make a big difference in braking. The fact that people on the forums brag about brake pad life is also an indicator that they probably go out of their way to not use the brakes heavily.

Comparing break-bad replacement frequency on a beast like a Crown Vic to a Prius is silly. I'm sure there are reports of Corolla drivers getting 200,000 km (~124,000 mi) on a set of brake pads if there were any forums for Corolla owners.

Originally Posted by cwerdna

From looking at the maintenance records of the aforementioned high mileage Priuses that were tested by the government at http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml, it appears none of them needed any brake pad or shoe replacement.

I didn't troll the maintenance records to check brake pad replacement, but I did manage to stumble upon this document (http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf) that discusses some EOL testing on the Civic, Insight, and Prius. Despite the fact that gas mileage remained high (only a decrease of 1.3%), there was a decrease battery pack capacity after 160k miles:

For static battery pack capacity testing, each end-of-life HEV demonstrated a reduced battery pack capacity (Figure 4). The two Civics demonstrated an average of 68.3% of battery pack capacity remaining, the two Insights an average of 84.6% of battery pack capacity remaining, and the two Priuses an average of 39.2% of battery pack capacity remaining.

While I don't consider not changing brake pads (around $200) to be a "significant savings in maintenance costs" like the Crown Vic driver, I do consider the battery replacement to be a significant one even if the prices have come down from the $3,000 figure published by Toyota last year.

All that being said, I think vehicles with a traditional powertrain and an electric assist are here to stay. I'm happy that there are some out there who are willing to be early adopters and I'm glad the experiment is working out for you (seriously).

From what I've read, I don't think hybrids come at too high of an environmental cost overall (manufacturing to usage) and hopefully the environmental cost will go down over time and remain at a reasonable price point. It seems like that might be an impossibility, but you never know. EFI changed the face of traditional engine efficiency, so maybe another technological advancement will take place over the next few years and increase efficiently of the machines without drastically increasing the environmental impact of manufacturing.

The only thing that really pisses me off about hybrids is the 'hybrid only' parking spaces that are being added around here to buildings trying to get LEED certified. I don't mind parking further away from a building (I do it most of the time for the ding reduction and exercise), but when there are not enough spaces in a parking lot and I need to park blocks away for a business lunch meeting in August in NC because of the 3 empty hybrid spaces I start to get angry.

[RED RIDER]

Originally Posted by Pat1USMC

Cwerdna, I can't believe you put so much time and effort into your posts. Good on you, but facts will NOT change some people's opinions, no matter how wrong or misinformed they are. They'll just come back will a reply with "pansy" and "bitchass" in it a couple times. Its amazing how angry people get at Priuses. Who cares? Do the drivers really stop you on the road to lecture you about what you're driving? Its like the gaybashers who think all gay guys are going to hit on them and rape them.

Um first off he was saying how great the prius is and saying basically anything else is to big or not fuel efficient enough. It IS a bitchass pansified POS in my opinion.
BTW I am not a gaybasher at all but I cannot stand them..what they stand for is vile and disgusting and that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do about fearing they would "hit" on me or rape me....the police would get a "shots fired" 911 call...end of story..
and lastly I don't remember banging on your cage asking for your opinion..so pissoff..

[cwerdna]

Originally Posted by RED RIDER

Um first off he was saying how great the prius is and saying basically anything else is to big or not fuel efficient enough. It IS a bitchass pansified POS in my opinion.
BTW I am not a gaybasher at all but I cannot stand them..what they stand for is vile and disgusting and that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do about fearing they would "hit" on me or rape me....the police would get a "shots fired" 911 call...end of story..
and lastly I don't remember banging on your cage asking for your opinion..so pissoff..

Nope. My problem is that the American public seems to be obsessed w/buying huge ass, monstrosity class SUVs and not caring that their actions have an effect on OTHER people, namely in the form of pollution, outcome in multi-car accidents, avoiding an accident in the first place w/better accident avoidance capabilities and our thirst for a non-renewable resource, 60% of which we import and much of which resides in volatile regions of the world and countries that don't like us very much. People that drive vehicles w/horrible fuel economy are much bigger contributors to the problem.

Not everyone should go buy a Prius and not everyone should go buy a hybrid. The key is to buying a vehicle that is commensurate with ones actual needs while considering other people. Many of these monstrosity SUV drivers can do just fine w/a medium sized car, small or medium sized SUV or a (gasp) minivan (which for some reason have become so "uncool" over the years). There's NOTHING cool about monstrosity class SUVs.

I do think that all vehicles in the future ought to be at least mild hybrids of the BAS (belt alternator start) variety and include idle stop. When you're stopped, you're getting 0 mpg. There's no point in running the gas engine.

This "bitchass" and "pansified" crap is just so lame. It's just SO MANLY and cool to drive a 5000+ lb. battering ram and voracious guzzler down the road while hauling only yourself.

[cwerdna]

Originally Posted by andycapp

I think close to a $10k price difference is a fair assessment of the price difference between the two. It's damn near impossible to find a stripped Prius (a former co-worker looked for 4 months a few years ago before gas got expensive to find one with zero options when there were plenty on lots to be had with NAV and the rest of the goodies).

Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but looking at my local dealer stock seems to indicate that base models are out-numbered 7:1 compared Touring models that all start at $28k.

Let the $10k argument go, it's not one of your strong points.

Funny enough, I was actually at an event for the 2010 Prius earlier today and someone in line mentioned to me that dealers are now letting 09 package 6 (w/nav) touring models go for $23K (you can see the definitions at http://priuschat.com/forums/knowledg...countries.html). Woah! He mentioned that in the past, that'd level of equipment would be $31K or $32K.

Although not nearly as good of a deal, I have an email sent a few weeks ago by my dealer (Toyota Sunnyvale), advertising 26 available 09 Prius package 2s at $21,888.

Originally Posted by andycapp

A bit of anecdotal evidence again (maybe I use that phrase too much), but most Prius drivers are at least mild hypermilers (many of them avid) and I think that will go quite a ways to explain the brake pad usage rather than the 'regenerative brake savings.' Using techniques like 'forced auto stop' and 'pulse and glide' will certainly reduce brake pad usage in any vehicle. I would attribute longer break life in a few cars to techniques like those rather than the massive savings with regenerative braking. I'm sure the regenerative braking slows the car down a bit, but those would have to be some big coils to make a big difference in braking. The fact that people on the forums brag about brake pad life is also an indicator that they probably go out of their way to not use the brakes heavily.

Pulse and glide has nothing to do w/reducing brake usage. I don't do forced auto stop either. Actually, if you're light on the brakes, you'll always be using regen to slow the car until the last 7 mph or so. From around 7 mph to 0, the car switches over to the friction brakes. If you open the windows, you can definitely hear the electrical whine from the regen.

If you're hard on the brakes or slam on the brakes, almost all the stopping power will be from the friction brakes.

The limiting factor I'm pretty sure isn't the two motor generators but rather the max rate that the battery can accept a charge.

For the hardcore people w/CAN-view, one should be able to view the charge rate at http://hybridinterfaces.ca/numerics.html.

Originally Posted by andycapp

I didn't troll the maintenance records to check brake pad replacement, but I did manage to stumble upon this document (http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf) that discusses some EOL testing on the Civic, Insight, and Prius. Despite the fact that gas mileage remained high (only a decrease of 1.3%), there was a decrease battery pack capacity after 160k miles:

Yeah. I saw that report. I was a bit surprised at both the fairly high capacity loss on the Prius pack and the surprisingly small effect on mileage.

[Ziggyrama]

Originally Posted by cwerdna

Funny enough, I was actually at an event for the 2010 Prius earlier today and someone in line mentioned to me that dealers are now letting 09 package 6 (w/nav) touring models go for $23K (you can see the definitions at http://priuschat.com/forums/knowledg...countries.html). Woah! He mentioned that in the past, that'd level of equipment would be $31K or $32K.

Although not nearly as good of a deal, I have an email sent a few weeks ago by my dealer (Toyota Sunnyvale), advertising 26 available 09 Prius package 2s at $21,888.

I can see that you're putting a lot of effort into this. I commend you on the info that you have dug up and the amount of time spent defending your choices. As for the deals you mentioned, was this report based on advertisement prices only? I bet ya if you go into that dealership, the deal you actually get will not be as good as you think. I seriously doubt that Toyota is letting a $32K 09 car go for $10K under MSRP. Toyota is making very little money on it as is so that's hard to believe. Dealers lie all the time in these ads just to get you in the door. Also, you didn't mention how of a good deal you can get on a Civic. Every dealer is dropping prices right now. If you can get a Prius for less than before, it's very likely the civic will also be available for less.

The article you mentioned before about 3.5 year break even period compares Camry and Prius. Hardly a fair comparison. They're not even in the same size class. It's like comparing an accord to Kia Rio. That break even period is realistically much larger if you actually look at comparable cars.

I was driving to see my parents yesterday which was an hour trip on the highway. I passed by at least 4 Priuses. They were all doing 75mph+ on RT 495. This is typical of the Priuses here. Most Prius cars I see here drive around just like most other inept drivers here. They most likely don't get 40+ mpg. Just my feeling based on years of observation. My coworker that sits in a cube next to me has a civic auto and he gets mid to high 30s on it consistently, mainly highway driving although he tells me does not try to drive for better mpg. When it's merge time onto the highway, it's throttle mash time so he could probably do even better if he actually tried.

[andycapp]

Originally Posted by cwerdna

Funny enough, I was actually at an event for the 2010 Prius earlier today and someone in line mentioned to me that dealers are now letting 09 package 6 (w/nav) touring models go for $23K (you can see the definitions at http://priuschat.com/forums/knowledg...countries.html). Woah! He mentioned that in the past, that'd level of equipment would be $31K or $32K.

Although not nearly as good of a deal, I have an email sent a few weeks ago by my dealer (Toyota Sunnyvale), advertising 26 available 09 Prius package 2s at $21,888.

I haven't bothered to call dealers to find out how much the discount is on Civics right now, but I'm sure they are not charging MSRP while Prii are being offered for $8k below sticker. I'm not sure how reliable Edmunds TMV is, but their reports still show a $6900 price difference between a 'Standard Prius' and a 'Civic DX.' Discounts in certain regions are going to be different -- I'm sure there is a much greater stock in your area than mine (though hybrids are everywhere in central NC), so that will contribute to the discount.

When you start to think about it though, $6900 is a 44% increase in the price of the car. According to the EPA, I could drive the Civic for about 6 years ($999 in gas/year), get the oil changed almost 20 times and replace the brake pads twice, for the same cost as my Prius without driving a mile. $10k price difference or not, those are the type of economic numbers that effect people.

I don't have a CR online subscription, so I can't check out the TCO numbers, but I find it hard to believe that the Prius has the lowest TCO unless you are guaranteeing you will get the tax credit or adding intangibles like free parking or HOV lane-usage that don't affect everyone in the country.

Originally Posted by cwerdna

Pulse and glide has nothing to do w/reducing brake usage. I don't do forced auto stop either. Actually, if you're light on the brakes, you'll always be using regen to slow the car until the last 7 mph or so. From around 7 mph to 0, the car switches over to the friction brakes. If you open the windows, you can definitely hear the electrical whine from the regen.

Certainly if there's no one in front of you and you aren't in a neighborhood you don't step on the brakes to slow down to the speed limit when going down a hill do you? If you don't then you are using P+G and saving your break pads. And though you say you don't do FAS you are essentially doing that until the last second if you are 'light on the brakes' and only using them for the last bit of stopping. My point is that if I did the same thing, I could probably get a lot longer life out of my brake pads -- probably not as long as the Prius, but much longer life.

Originally Posted by cwerdna

Yeah. I saw that report. I was a bit surprised at both the fairly high capacity loss on the Prius pack and the surprisingly small effect on mileage.

That was puzzling to me as well. I guess that during their normal driving they really didn't discharge the battery that much. I would not be surprised if Toyota engineers designed the packs to be as large as they are for that very reason.

[Lento]

Originally Posted by Pat1USMC

Cwerdna, I can't believe you put so much time and effort into your posts. Good on you, but facts will NOT change some people's opinions, no matter how wrong or misinformed they are. They'll just come back will a reply with "pansy" and "bitchass" in it a couple times. Its amazing how angry people get at Priuses. Who cares? Do the drivers really stop you on the road to lecture you about what you're driving? Its like the gaybashers who think all gay guys are going to hit on them and rape them.

^Agreed. I'm going to continue to bash it no matter how good the facts are. Its kind of like racism. Sure you can be as politicly correct as you want and give examples of how diversity has so many advantages, and people should be allowed to screw whatever gender they please, but.....

At the end of the day when you are behind closed doors, especailly when chit hits the fan,people are as racist, homophobic, and down right unaccepting of others unlike themselves. just as they were 100 years ago. Especailly if you come from a one backround family. 100% Italian, Irish, Russian ect...

Call me outragous, a biggot, or whatever, but thats the way the world goes round and has been going for years. We sugar coat it now because were all so afraid of what others will think of us. Im always going hate the Prius, just like I hate n*ggers.........

I hate naggers, they are very annoying

[mhoward1]

Congrats Lento,
you officially crossed the line.

[Lento]

Originally Posted by Lento

^Agreed. I'm going to continue to bash it no matter how good the facts are. Its kind of like racism. Sure you can be as politicly correct as you want and give examples of how diversity has so many advantages, and people should be allowed to screw whatever gender they please, but.....

At the end of the day when you are behind closed doors, especailly when chit hits the fan,people are as racist, homophobic, and down right unaccepting of others unlike themselves. just as they were 100 years ago. Especailly if you come from a one backround family. 100% Italian, Irish, Russian ect...

Call me outragous, a biggot, or whatever, but thats the way the world goes round and has been going for years. We sugar coat it now because were all so afraid of what others will think of us. Im always going hate the Prius, just like I hate n*ggers.........

I hate naggers, they are very annoying

^from south park episode, sry people i fail at being funny.

[0jiggy0]

The south park episode was hilarious, you hating blacks is not.

[j.arnaldo]

The only thing I don't like about her is her looks. Other than that, her mileage, performance, reliabilty, etc., are o-u-t-s-t-a-n-d-i-n-g!

[gmueip]

[Lento]

Originally Posted by 0jiggy0

The south park episode was hilarious, you hating blacks is not.

I never said I hated blacks, people just didn't get the southpark refrence. Don't get your panties in a bunch...



To all those hippy's, liberals, tree huggers, and Prius drivers I would not like to appologize, but to encourage you not to take anything I say too serioulsy. I make these rediculous threads to provide entertainment for those who choose to read them.

I'm not really going to come to your door and beat you with a baby seal, or force you to eat a banana sprayed with more chemicals than the Shites, but I will tell you what is really going on.

You can pretend it doesn't exist or whatever the heck you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have no intention on making personal attacks on you or your beliefs, I only do this because I am bored and get joy out of making other people chuckle as they prentend to do work in their cubicles, putting up their privacy screen and almost conspiculously tiling them just out of site of their supervisor.

I reciently got a warning over my "naggers" post. I thought most of the people reading would get the south park reference, but I ment it in a humors way not making an attack on any type of racial backround.

I appriciate the Mods giving me a warning before banning me. I hope from reading this everyone understands not to read to much into what I am saying. I barely back anything up with any real facts other than what I see on a day to day basis.

I really don't care if you agree with me or not, the treads are just rediulous rants that come out of my sick mind.

Maybe the best way to think about my threads is like the life of Family Guy. Rediculous skits based on nothing but steriotypes and crude humor. They got cancled for years, because they were too "racy" but even off air they were one of the most watched shows ever.

The reason being.... most people deep down really think like the show projects. They wont say that even on their death bed, but going against my own speal here about providing facts.... take a look at this show, people wont admit it, but the viewing numbers don't lie.

I hope you enjoy my threads

[90TGP]

[aloh]

how smug...