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i just saw the vid. clip of the American that got beheaded... they were sayin some prayer or something for about 4 minutes... then they decapitated him.... it wasn't quick and simple either... they made sure he suffered by sawing his neck with a knife... after hearing the screams from the American i was no more good....
on another note... what about our military... making the prisoners have oral sex with each other... or taking pictures next to a pyramid of naked men... how about the guy they put wires on claiming it was electricity... and that if he moved they shock his *** to death...
i know that the decapitations are far more worse and barbaric... but i just wanted to point out that we do some messed up things too...
i've been thinking alot about this "war on terrorism"... and some of you guys are very optimistic... thinking if we keep at it... things will go our way... but the way i see it... i see no end....
the terrorists do not fear death... they die with absolute pride and think they are doing for their country and their god.... everyday a US soldier or an innocent bystander dies from car bombs... its just sick... i read the Sun paper everyday and it makes me sicker that they don't show you the real problems on the front page... they show pistons winning the nba championship on the front page... but our soldiers that have died for OUR country... are on the last pages....
i'm still very young... but reading about all the people dying from car bombs... just makes me hate Bush... sorry for all you pro bush people... but that idiot that can only say a sentence 3 words at a time should go to iraq and put on some fatigues and fight with the soldiers that he has sent over there... and see how hard it is... and see the reality of things....
I think this is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better...
You hate Bush, but he is taking action. I agree that there will be no good resolution and that things will likely get worse before they get better. But what do you suggest? Also, I agree 100% that we should be more concerned with dead American soldiers than if Shaq is coming to Dallas or not.
Originally posted by Shift_Speed i just saw the vid. clip of the American that got beheaded... they were sayin some prayer or something for about 4 minutes... then they decapitated him.... it wasn't quick and simple either... they made sure he suffered by sawing his neck with a knife... after hearing the screams from the American i was no more good....
on another note... what about our military... making the prisoners have oral sex with each other... or taking pictures next to a pyramid of naked men... how about the guy they put wires on claiming it was electricity... and that if he moved they shock his *** to death...
Quick tip.... Don't watch a video of someone being decapitated. You know it's not gonna be pretty. Someone sent me a video once of a Chechen rebel being decapitated by a Russian soldier and the video was called discipline with no explanation of what the video was about. I couldn't stop thinking about that vid for a week. I was pissed.
About the "torture" pictures from Abu Ghraib.... It was a couple stupid soldiers, not the entire military.
It will get better as soon as we (the US government) realizes that it's just not possible to kill all the radical Muslims and is forced to figure out a better way.
Originally posted by Shift_Speed i'm still very young... but reading about all the people dying from car bombs... just makes me hate Bush.....
EXACTLY!!!
No car bombings happened during the Clinton Administration!!!
Plus, we all know that car bombings in third world countries are directly related to the current President of the US.
Michael Moore told me so.
__________________
One should always have a healthy distrust for anyone who wields the power of the gun and says, "I know what's best, and I'm here to help." - JonnyC
wasnt it Chechnyan rebels cutting the head of a Russian officer? There are two of those floating out there. Two different unfortunate soldiers. Very disturbing.
Originally posted by gooters wasnt it Chechnyan rebels cutting the head of a Russian officer? There are two of those floating out there. Two different unfortunate soldiers. Very disturbing.
The "war on terrorism" will be won or lost by Muslims living in the middle east, not by Americans. The American action in the middle east, in Afghanistan and Iraq, has only served as a deterrent against further attacks (may not work on terrorists but certainly has worked on their supporting states). Ultimately however, mainstream muslims will have to choose between prosperity and freedom or war and suffering.
There are two ultimate long-term outcomes of this struggle...either the Islamic world will abandon the belief that they are destined to take over the world, or their greatest wish, a Jyhad, will actually happen.
If they get what they want, a massive war encompassing the whole of the muslim world, they will be very sorry, because they will be summarily crushed. The vast majority of muslims, even those that believe in the "jyhad," understand that if this cataclysmic war ever took place, they would be on the losing end of it. Israel has defeated the combined might of the islamic world twice...by itself. The combined might of the western world would obliterate the arab world, if it ever came to that. And most muslim extremists know it.
Given that the ultimate goal of these islamist wackos is so bizzarre, given that the methods they use are barbaric even by middle eastern standards, and given that the US, despite some minimal losses, has twice overwhelmingly defeated the most powerful arab military in a matter of days, I believe that most muslims understand that the victorious jyhad that brings the house of islam to the whole world just isn't going to happen.
I think the terrorists are steadily losing the support of muslims worldwide, muslims who are getting tired of their faith being associated with car-bombs and beheadings and kidnappings and hostages. I think that in the long run, arabs and muslims are going to turn against these people, stop giving them money, stop hiding them, and start hunting them.
That's how this thing is going to end. But it's going to take a while...
Pete (sees the next cold war forming)
__________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." --Thomas Jefferson
There is no Super Power therefore no cold war> How can one terrorism be fought with another form of terrorism and expect any end. Everything that you see in the media especially the brutality just pisses people off in one direction or another.<worhtless opinion
>> i know that the decapitations are far more worse and barbaric... but i just wanted to point out that we do some messed up things too...
Individuals did those things, and we are punishing those individuals.
>> i've been thinking alot about this "war on terrorism"... and some of you guys are very optimistic... thinking if we keep at it... things will go our way... but the way i see it... i see no end....
There's never going to be an end to terrorism (at least not for hundreds or thousands of years at best). But if we didn't act as we did we would have encouraged more terrorism.
>> the terrorists do not fear death... they die with absolute pride and think they are doing for their country and their god....
Like I've said a few times before, there are probably thousands of terrorists who are willing to die for their cause, but there are millions of Americans who are even more willing. We have them beat there, too.
>> everyday a US soldier or an innocent bystander dies from car bombs... its just sick... i read the Sun paper everyday and it makes me sicker that they don't show you the real problems on the front page...
It makes me sick that they don't show the real solutions on the front page, or the good we are doing.
>> they show pistons winning the nba championship on the front page... but our soldiers that have died for OUR country... are on the last pages....
Yeah, I agree that sucks. But if they didn't put the sports on the front page, people probably wouldn't buy the newspaper, and they'd never read about the soldiers at all.
>> i'm still very young... but reading about all the people dying from car bombs... just makes me hate Bush...
Set aside your hatred and instead place the blame on those who deserve it: the terrorists.
__________________ You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
Originally posted by plezercruz The "war on terrorism" will be won or lost by Muslims living in the middle east, not by Americans. The American action in the middle east, in Afghanistan and Iraq, has only served as a deterrent against further attacks (may not work on terrorists but certainly has worked on their supporting states). Ultimately however, mainstream muslims will have to choose between prosperity and freedom or war and suffering.
There are two ultimate long-term outcomes of this struggle...either the Islamic world will abandon the belief that they are destined to take over the world, or their greatest wish, a Jyhad, will actually happen.
If they get what they want, a massive war encompassing the whole of the muslim world, they will be very sorry, because they will be summarily crushed. The vast majority of muslims, even those that believe in the "jyhad," understand that if this cataclysmic war ever took place, they would be on the losing end of it. Israel has defeated the combined might of the islamic world twice...by itself. The combined might of the western world would obliterate the arab world, if it ever came to that. And most muslim extremists know it.
Given that the ultimate goal of these islamist wackos is so bizzarre, given that the methods they use are barbaric even by middle eastern standards, and given that the US, despite some minimal losses, has twice overwhelmingly defeated the most powerful arab military in a matter of days, I believe that most muslims understand that the victorious jyhad that brings the house of islam to the whole world just isn't going to happen.
I think the terrorists are steadily losing the support of muslims worldwide, muslims who are getting tired of their faith being associated with car-bombs and beheadings and kidnappings and hostages. I think that in the long run, arabs and muslims are going to turn against these people, stop giving them money, stop hiding them, and start hunting them.
That's how this thing is going to end. But it's going to take a while...
Pete (sees the next cold war forming)
BINGO!
I am of the opinion that we are terrible at telling our story effectively. I think that an effective media campaign against terrorism by the United States would be just as powerful as any military action that we could take.
I dont know why we are not better at "selling" our actions. Maybe it is because the media is too liberal. Maybe it is because Bush is an ineffective speaker. I really dont know.
If I was Bush though, I would invest alot of time and finance into creating a method of telling our side of the story. (Heaven only knows that he isnt afraid to spend money).
>> i know that the decapitations are far more worse and barbaric... but i just wanted to point out that we do some messed up things too...
Individuals did those things, and we are punishing those individuals.
no... the wrong people are being punished... people in higher command are not.... u need to know that....
just heard about the korean that got beheaded yesterday... they told the korean president to remove troops and not to send the 3000 troops next year or he dies... president said no... and he died...
You should put the ">>" in front of what other people type. If it already has one, just add another. That way I can follow what you type much more easily.
>> no... the wrong people are being punished... people in higher command are not.... u need to know that....
Tell me an individual who you think is guilty who isn't being punished.
>> just heard about the korean that got beheaded yesterday... they told the korean president to remove troops and not to send the 3000 troops next year or he dies... president said no... and he died...
Of course the president won't give into terrorists demands. If he did, terrorists would start capturing more people and threatening to kill them until they get everything they want, and we would no longer be free. We'd be servants to murderers.
__________________ You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
Originally posted by gooters wasnt it Chechnyan rebels cutting the head of a Russian officer? There are two of those floating out there. Two different unfortunate soldiers. Very disturbing.
Yes, and the rebels have links to Al Qaeda and are also Islamicist Muslims.
Originally posted by Shift_Speed i just saw the vid. clip of the American that got beheaded... they were sayin some prayer or something for about 4 minutes... then they decapitated him.... it wasn't quick and simple either... they made sure he suffered by sawing his neck with a knife... after hearing the screams from the American i was no more good....
on another note... what about our military... making the prisoners have oral sex with each other... or taking pictures next to a pyramid of naked men... how about the guy they put wires on claiming it was electricity... and that if he moved they shock his *** to death...
i know that the decapitations are far more worse and barbaric... but i just wanted to point out that we do some messed up things too...
Sorry, but the actions of a few soldiers that basically used humilation, fear, and shame against some Iraqi prisoners (who, by the way, had attacked our soldiers with things like road side bombs, etc, or they wouldn't have been in this prison from what I've read) is not the moral equivalent of actions like flying planes into buildings where 55,000+ people worked on a bright sunny morning, or sawing off the head of a hostage. You just can't say those things are anywhere near the same level. On one side, you have soldiers being punished for doing these things, on the other, beheading somebody is a small part of the MO of attacks aimed primarily at civilians.
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i've been thinking alot about this "war on terrorism"... and some of you guys are very optimistic... thinking if we keep at it... things will go our way... but the way i see it... i see no end....
the terrorists do not fear death... they die with absolute pride and think they are doing for their country and their god.... everyday a US soldier or an innocent bystander dies from car bombs... its just sick... i read the Sun paper everyday and it makes me sicker that they don't show you the real problems on the front page... they show pistons winning the nba championship on the front page... but our soldiers that have died for OUR country... are on the last pages....
I agree about the news media to a point, but just because the terrorists supposedly don't fear death (btw, I think that is the minority of the ones fighting, not the majority) doesn't mean they can't be defeated. In WW2, suicide attacks became a significant part of the Japanese fighting plan near the end of the war, however, we defeated them in the end.
This fight will be long, and we will be attacked again. However, we must and will stand against terrorism. Just because we don't fight doesn't mean they stop.
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i'm still very young... but reading about all the people dying from car bombs... just makes me hate Bush... sorry for all you pro bush people... but that idiot that can only say a sentence 3 words at a time should go to iraq and put on some fatigues and fight with the soldiers that he has sent over there... and see how hard it is... and see the reality of things....
I think this is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better...
I'm unclear how hard something is makes it wrong for it to be done. Normandy was "hard" for the soldiers, but was necessary for the survival of freedom in Western Europe and for us. Sorry, I'm not following the rationale of how you can hate Bush for people attacking our soldiers and civilians in Iraq or elsewhere.
The attacks against the US started well before Bush took office. That year, Bin Laden declared war on the US. This is what followed:
1983 - Lebanon attack kills 241 Marines in their barracks
1992 - Attack in Yemen against a hotel frequented by US soldiers.
1993 - Somalia attack against the US soldiers is led by Al Qaeda trained Somalis. 18 soldiers are killed in the "Black Hawk Down" battle.
1993 - First WTC attack with bombs laced with cyanide.
1995 - Car bomb outside of Saudi national guard base in Riyhad where US soldiers trained Saudis. 5 Americans and 2 Indians were killed
1996 - Bombing of the Kohbar Towers kills 19 Americans and injures 372 others.
1998 - Truck bombings at two African US embassies kill 224 people, injure over 5000 more. 12 killed were Americans.
2000 - Boat suicide bombs USS Cole in Yemen killing 17 and wounding 39 more.
You could also throw in stuff like Libya downing airliners, etc, but you get the point I hope. Bush didn't start this war. If we don't fight, we still are attacked.
Please wake up and realize no matter what we do, these Islamacists will hate and attack us.
Originally posted by MannishBoy In WW2, suicide attacks became a significant part of the Japanese fighting plan near the end of the war, however, we defeated them in the end.
There is a major difference between Al Qaeda and Japan. We forced them into surrender and there was a godlike figurehead (the emperor) that gave the surrender. Everyone did what the emperor said. There were hundreds of Japanese soldiers who didn't hear about the surrender and tried to kill US soldiers for years after the war was over.
The only godlike figure Al Qaeda has is God/Allah and according to them, it is the right thing for them to fight against the evil west. So, unless Allah himself comes down to let these people know what they're doing is wrong, they're going to continue fighting to the death. We must do something that lowers the amount of recruits. That way when the current terrorist dies, there aren't 10 people to replace him.
True to a degree, but I am still not of the mind that there are limitless suicide attackers. People are people, and it is the rare fanatic or loser with no perceived other way out that will actually kill themselves for the cause.
Take out the top leaders and run the others to ground by taking away their safe zones (Afghanistan for instance) and it becomes much harder to sustain a credible attack force.
Education is a key to this, too. These people are often brain washed from childhood on to hate the west, and the US and Israel in particular.
Education also goes to your Allah being the only one they follow. That just isn't the way I see it. They are seeing a brainwashed version of Allah presented to them by their leaders like Bin Laden and the sympathetic clerics that see things his way. That again is a limited number of people.
Originally posted by MannishBoy True to a degree, but I am still not of the mind that there are limitless suicide attackers. People are people, and it is the rare fanatic or loser with no perceived other way out that will actually kill themselves for the cause.
The problem is that the people are being taught that to die fighting for Islam will get you and your family express tickets to paradise. They truly believe this. Killing them causes their brothers, sisters, sons, daughters to admire them and what they've done and to hate the US for killing them. It's an endless loop.
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Education also goes to your Allah being the only one they follow. That just isn't the way I see it. They are seeing a brainwashed version of Allah presented to them by their leaders like Bin Laden and the sympathetic clerics that see things his way. That again is a limited number of people.
Which is why I've always said that the way to fix this problem is not necessarily to just kill them all because IMO it can't be done. We've got to get to the source of the problem. Shut down the Madrassas schools and kill the radical clerics through non violent means. It would be much better if Abdul bin whatever the, radical Muslim cleric, dies of a heart attack in his bed rather than in a violent death in a fight against The Great Satan.
>> ... kill the radical clerics through non violent means.
What does that mean? (No, I'm not being sarcastic.)
__________________ You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
sick...
