Skilled Tuner Question?
10-20-2013, 05:15 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Skilled Tuner Question?
What would cause my idle and cruise AFR's to richen up over time while driving?
Here is the skinny;
During and immediately after tuning and a quick test drive idle and cruise AFR's are spot on, but during the 3 hour drive home from my tuner they start to gradually richen up and it looks like the ecu tries to compensate to hit target AFR's, but never quite gets there bouncing between 13.5 - 14.2 never getting back to 14.7ish. Same thing goes for idle. Seems to be a little worse on bank one. Confirmed with OEM widebands via CIPHER, ROM editor (logging and tracing) and along with my aftermarket wideband gauges.
Here is the kicker... If I clear the learned fuel settings with CIPHER they immediately go back to 14.7ish for both idle and cruise, but the cycle begins once I start putting miles on. Any ideas? Something simple?
If you could please get back with me I as always would greatly appreciate it.
2006 G35, Vortech, ID725'S, GT MAF, Walbro, UpRev Tuner version, MREV2/spacer, full exhaust, etc...
Here is the skinny;
During and immediately after tuning and a quick test drive idle and cruise AFR's are spot on, but during the 3 hour drive home from my tuner they start to gradually richen up and it looks like the ecu tries to compensate to hit target AFR's, but never quite gets there bouncing between 13.5 - 14.2 never getting back to 14.7ish. Same thing goes for idle. Seems to be a little worse on bank one. Confirmed with OEM widebands via CIPHER, ROM editor (logging and tracing) and along with my aftermarket wideband gauges.
Here is the kicker... If I clear the learned fuel settings with CIPHER they immediately go back to 14.7ish for both idle and cruise, but the cycle begins once I start putting miles on. Any ideas? Something simple?
If you could please get back with me I as always would greatly appreciate it.
2006 G35, Vortech, ID725'S, GT MAF, Walbro, UpRev Tuner version, MREV2/spacer, full exhaust, etc...
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philthethrill (09-25-2015)
10-20-2013, 05:49 AM
#2
Do you have anti-foulers or j-bungs on your downstream sensors? For me, I resolved a very similar issue by putting them directly in the exhaust stream. So yes, they do affect trims regardless of what arm-chair mechanics and test pipe / hfc manufacturers tell you.
Last edited by djamps; 10-20-2013 at 05:50 AM.
10-20-2013, 11:02 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
I have Berk HFC's so they do have the built in extensions. I was running the berks with my Borla cat-back for the longest time when I was NA with no issues until I installed my Stillen headers where very shortly after I was throwing p2a00 @ p2a03's left and right. Had it checked for leaks and actually installed 2 new upstream oem primary o2 sensors in in hopes of fixing the issue, but had no luck...
I was advised that I was in need of a tune due to the additional exhaust flow, etc..etc.. So I got a UpRev NA tune 2 years ago and never threw a code since... Until now. For all I know they could have just disabled them. (Most likely)
From what I gather I could either have an exhaust leak that wasn't detected years ago, or that the target and compensation maps aren't close enough and is fighting one another. Just want it sorted out seeing how I am FI now.
P2a00 & p2a03 as most of us know are for bank 1 & 2 primary upstream sensors. I will look into the leak theory as it is simple enough.
I have plenty of spare bungs and plugs so I could always just drill and weld them in post cat behind the berks secondary location and give that a shot if it effects the primaries and target AFR's that much. I always thought they where just there to monitor cat efficiency as most of my buddies simple disable them, but Ive heard bad things in regards to that.
I was advised that I was in need of a tune due to the additional exhaust flow, etc..etc.. So I got a UpRev NA tune 2 years ago and never threw a code since... Until now. For all I know they could have just disabled them. (Most likely)
From what I gather I could either have an exhaust leak that wasn't detected years ago, or that the target and compensation maps aren't close enough and is fighting one another. Just want it sorted out seeing how I am FI now.
P2a00 & p2a03 as most of us know are for bank 1 & 2 primary upstream sensors. I will look into the leak theory as it is simple enough.
I have plenty of spare bungs and plugs so I could always just drill and weld them in post cat behind the berks secondary location and give that a shot if it effects the primaries and target AFR's that much. I always thought they where just there to monitor cat efficiency as most of my buddies simple disable them, but Ive heard bad things in regards to that.
Last edited by joeb1983; 10-20-2013 at 11:08 AM.
10-20-2013, 12:35 PM
#4
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
can you rule out your MAF sensor? If you're metering air incorrectly then your AFR will be off.
10-20-2013, 12:47 PM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
MAF seems to be perfectly fine to me. Live data and logging looks great. It's a brand new UpRev GT MAF so I would hope so. Lol!
I hope it's something simple...
I hope it's something simple...
Last edited by joeb1983; 10-20-2013 at 12:49 PM.
10-20-2013, 01:15 PM
#6
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
10-20-2013, 01:35 PM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
Haltech is fantastic, but UpRev was more financially in my means. I'm sure it is something stupid simple. I have a buddy who is a tuner in Cali looking at my tables. In the meantime I am going to do a leak test on the exhaust. Its my weekend car and I'm off all week so it will give me something to do. 
Hopefully I find out something soon.
Hopefully I find out something soon.
Trending Topics
10-20-2013, 01:51 PM
#8
depends on what ems you use, i ran over a year with no downstream hooked up perfectly ok on haltech. they are supposed to be used in calculations though helping to change long term trim if they see the engine isnt running in the proper range. it should be long term fuel trim though vs short term of the fronts which explains why the OP can clear it and it goes back to normal.
sounds like the sensors are reading lean and adding fuel to long term fuel trim from either a leak or not enough of the exhaust is getting to them, thats a big reason to run o2 sim's for the rears in a performance application.
sounds like the sensors are reading lean and adding fuel to long term fuel trim from either a leak or not enough of the exhaust is getting to them, thats a big reason to run o2 sim's for the rears in a performance application.
Last edited by jerryd87; 10-20-2013 at 01:56 PM.
10-21-2013, 08:12 AM
#9
depends on what ems you use, i ran over a year with no downstream hooked up perfectly ok on haltech. they are supposed to be used in calculations though helping to change long term trim if they see the engine isnt running in the proper range. it should be long term fuel trim though vs short term of the fronts which explains why the OP can clear it and it goes back to normal.
sounds like the sensors are reading lean and adding fuel to long term fuel trim from either a leak or not enough of the exhaust is getting to them, thats a big reason to run o2 sim's for the rears in a performance application.
sounds like the sensors are reading lean and adding fuel to long term fuel trim from either a leak or not enough of the exhaust is getting to them, thats a big reason to run o2 sim's for the rears in a performance application.
I'm sure with a haltech or other standalone with no regard for emissions this isn't an issue.
OP, first try grounding the exhaust near the sensors (your headers could be causing too much resistance). If that doesn't help, try disconnecting the downstreams completely. The ECM isn't going to draw corrections from them if they're missing. You'll get a few more codes, but worth a shot...
Last edited by djamps; 10-21-2013 at 08:14 AM.
10-21-2013, 10:34 AM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
I have a few bonding straps lying around, so I will give it a try. My buddy said my tune looked great and that my target and compensation maps are perfectly fine.
Making a makeshift leak detector out of a party smoke machine, spare hose and bits and pieces around the garage.. Lol! We will see...
Have you seen what a smoke leak detector costs? Its ridiculous!
Making a makeshift leak detector out of a party smoke machine, spare hose and bits and pieces around the garage.. Lol! We will see...
Have you seen what a smoke leak detector costs? Its ridiculous!
10-22-2013, 11:03 AM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Performed audible, visual soot and smoke leak tests both hot and cold to no avail... Did not see any cracks. soot or smoke. Also smoked the plenum as well... Nothing!
There was a guy pretty much in the same boat that all he could do was just keep clearing the learned fuel settings via CIPHER to get things back to normal just as I am doing.
If left alone, after a while the SES will come on and P2A00 will be present and if left longer it will be accompanied by its ba$tard brother P2A03.
Hours upon hours of researching numerous forums, emails to tuners and conversations with friends tend to leave me empty handed and just plant more things in my head and I feel like I am grasping at straws as most seem to do with this situation.
There was a guy that had all his gaskets replaced, 2 fuel injectors, MAF along with all o2 sensors both primaries and secondaries and is still getting the code(s).
It has to be related to my STILLEN headers install 2 years ago because that's when the codes immediately appeared... I honestly believe with my first NA tune they simply disabled the codes thus explaining why I never got a SES light until now after the FI tune.
As some of you suggested the rear o2 sensors are the problem, grounding the exhaust, or not using the berk extensions and welding a bung in putting them directly in the exhaust stream. Id like to search for something more obvious first then move on to that. I will try to re-torque everything and see if that helps.
So many threads on these codes not necessarily the AFR issue, but I do now have the tools to monitor them as before I did not, so maybe I am just seeing in real time what is actually happening.
I will keep on keeping on and see what I can find.
There was a guy pretty much in the same boat that all he could do was just keep clearing the learned fuel settings via CIPHER to get things back to normal just as I am doing.
If left alone, after a while the SES will come on and P2A00 will be present and if left longer it will be accompanied by its ba$tard brother P2A03.
Hours upon hours of researching numerous forums, emails to tuners and conversations with friends tend to leave me empty handed and just plant more things in my head and I feel like I am grasping at straws as most seem to do with this situation.
There was a guy that had all his gaskets replaced, 2 fuel injectors, MAF along with all o2 sensors both primaries and secondaries and is still getting the code(s).
It has to be related to my STILLEN headers install 2 years ago because that's when the codes immediately appeared... I honestly believe with my first NA tune they simply disabled the codes thus explaining why I never got a SES light until now after the FI tune.
As some of you suggested the rear o2 sensors are the problem, grounding the exhaust, or not using the berk extensions and welding a bung in putting them directly in the exhaust stream. Id like to search for something more obvious first then move on to that. I will try to re-torque everything and see if that helps.
So many threads on these codes not necessarily the AFR issue, but I do now have the tools to monitor them as before I did not, so maybe I am just seeing in real time what is actually happening.
I will keep on keeping on and see what I can find.
Last edited by joeb1983; 10-22-2013 at 11:06 AM.
10-22-2013, 11:37 AM
#12
How about posting a log?
Performed audible, visual soot and smoke leak tests both hot and cold to no avail... Did not see any cracks. soot or smoke. Also smoked the plenum as well... Nothing!
There was a guy pretty much in the same boat that all he could do was just keep clearing the learned fuel settings via CIPHER to get things back to normal just as I am doing.
If left alone, after a while the SES will come on and P2A00 will be present and if left longer it will be accompanied by its ba$tard brother P2A03.
Hours upon hours of researching numerous forums, emails to tuners and conversations with friends tend to leave me empty handed and just plant more things in my head and I feel like I am grasping at straws as most seem to do with this situation.
There was a guy that had all his gaskets replaced, 2 fuel injectors, MAF along with all o2 sensors both primaries and secondaries and is still getting the code(s).
It has to be related to my STILLEN headers install 2 years ago because that's when the codes immediately appeared... I honestly believe with my first NA tune they simply disabled the codes thus explaining why I never got a SES light until now after the FI tune.
As some of you suggested the rear o2 sensors are the problem, grounding the exhaust, or not using the berk extensions and welding a bung in putting them directly in the exhaust stream. Id like to search for something more obvious first then move on to that. I will try to re-torque everything and see if that helps.
So many threads on these codes not necessarily the AFR issue, but I do now have the tools to monitor them as before I did not, so maybe I am just seeing in real time what is actually happening.
I will keep on keeping on and see what I can find.
There was a guy pretty much in the same boat that all he could do was just keep clearing the learned fuel settings via CIPHER to get things back to normal just as I am doing.
If left alone, after a while the SES will come on and P2A00 will be present and if left longer it will be accompanied by its ba$tard brother P2A03.
Hours upon hours of researching numerous forums, emails to tuners and conversations with friends tend to leave me empty handed and just plant more things in my head and I feel like I am grasping at straws as most seem to do with this situation.
There was a guy that had all his gaskets replaced, 2 fuel injectors, MAF along with all o2 sensors both primaries and secondaries and is still getting the code(s).
It has to be related to my STILLEN headers install 2 years ago because that's when the codes immediately appeared... I honestly believe with my first NA tune they simply disabled the codes thus explaining why I never got a SES light until now after the FI tune.
As some of you suggested the rear o2 sensors are the problem, grounding the exhaust, or not using the berk extensions and welding a bung in putting them directly in the exhaust stream. Id like to search for something more obvious first then move on to that. I will try to re-torque everything and see if that helps.
So many threads on these codes not necessarily the AFR issue, but I do now have the tools to monitor them as before I did not, so maybe I am just seeing in real time what is actually happening.
I will keep on keeping on and see what I can find.
10-22-2013, 12:08 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Sure thing. I'll throw some miles on and get her to richen up and log a bit of idle and cruise. Snap shot shows the codes are triggered during lower RPM's. You be able to see the ecu trying to correct via the AFR's. I just cleared the learned settings yesterday...
10-22-2013, 12:13 PM
#14
I like puzzles. Log the following part throttle and WOT:
1. AFR correction B1
2. AFR correction B2
3. AF WB B1 volts
4. AF WB B2 volts
5. AFR WB B1
6. AFR WB B2
7. Base Fuel Schedule (the first one listed in ROM editor. This shows the BFS as a number like 3.5 ms)
8. Coolant temp
9. Engine speed (the second one listed in ROM editor)
10. Ignition timing advance
11. Intake air temp
12. Knock strength
13. MAF volts (both banks if available)
14. NB O2 sensor B1 volts
15. NB O2 sensor B2 volts
16. Target AFR
17. Accellerator pedal sensor 1 volts
18. Vehicle speed
19. Innovate Aux corresponding to your MAP sensor if installed
1. AFR correction B1
2. AFR correction B2
3. AF WB B1 volts
4. AF WB B2 volts
5. AFR WB B1
6. AFR WB B2
7. Base Fuel Schedule (the first one listed in ROM editor. This shows the BFS as a number like 3.5 ms)
8. Coolant temp
9. Engine speed (the second one listed in ROM editor)
10. Ignition timing advance
11. Intake air temp
12. Knock strength
13. MAF volts (both banks if available)
14. NB O2 sensor B1 volts
15. NB O2 sensor B2 volts
16. Target AFR
17. Accellerator pedal sensor 1 volts
18. Vehicle speed
19. Innovate Aux corresponding to your MAP sensor if installed
10-27-2013, 05:26 PM
#16
Registered User
Thread Starter
Been pretty busy, but here are some before logs. Idle, cruise and WOT. Shortly after I stopped the WOT log the SES light came on for P2A00.
Never mind... invalid files. I will try to convert them.
Never mind... invalid files. I will try to convert them.
Last edited by joeb1983; 10-27-2013 at 05:33 PM.
10-27-2013, 05:40 PM
#17
I doubt the headers alone would cause so much trouble unless they leak. I've got two boosted VQ's... one with a custom tubular manifold, another 'log' greddy manifold. Both with TURBOS before the primary sensor. Never had any issues except for the bank lean codes when the secondary sensors weren't directly in the exhaust stream. Seriously, try it. $50 max from an exhaust shop to get it done.
10-29-2013, 10:17 AM
#18
Stoich is 1.5V for the WB sensor according to the FSM and 0.45V for the NB sensor according to information I had to find elsewhere. For the WB sensor rich is <1.5V and lean is >1.5V. For the NB sensor it is the other way around, rich is >0.45V and lean is <0.45V. I only recently finished my cat analysis stuff but running your data through it shows that your average WB voltage when the target AFR is 14.7 is 1.276V for B1 and 1.329V for B2, so rich; however, your average NB voltage is 0.418V for both banks, so lean.
This would, I think, cause your trims to drift towards rich as you are seeing. I'm guessing either you have an exhaust leak or your extensions are causing the NB sensors to read lean.
Also possibly contributing to the problem is that you are running fairly lean in the higher load open loop cells. If you are getting these codes after WOT pulls it might be because you are just not hitting your targets. Here's your fuel table:
I'd fix your tune first before you shell out money to have your exhaust modified.
This would, I think, cause your trims to drift towards rich as you are seeing. I'm guessing either you have an exhaust leak or your extensions are causing the NB sensors to read lean.
Also possibly contributing to the problem is that you are running fairly lean in the higher load open loop cells. If you are getting these codes after WOT pulls it might be because you are just not hitting your targets. Here's your fuel table:
I'd fix your tune first before you shell out money to have your exhaust modified.
10-29-2013, 05:28 PM
#19
Registered User
Thread Starter
I really appreciate the time you took to help. Your awesome! 
Those logs where with it acting up. I will clear the learned fuel settings and get the AFR's back to normal and perform the same 3 logs here in the next few days. I see what you are referring to it not hitting target AFR's on the top end. I know its during open loop, but hopefully something will improve...
When dyno or street tuning everything looks good and it seems to hit the targets just fine.
The SES light honestly comes on 99.9% of the time just cruising around town or on the highway with the CC set; so lower RPM's. Honestly, it was right about the time for it to come on after clearing the settings last.
I really think I have an exhaust leak or the narrow bands are not happy after the headers install for some reason... The headers where the only thing that started all this P2A00/P2A03 malarkey.
History;
March 2011 - bought car 100% stock
April - installed Borla Cat back, Berk HFC's & Stillen intake (no issues)
May - (DEPLOYED)
November - (RETURN) MREV2/spacer install (no issues)
December - Dealer installed Stillen headers. SES light on the way home from the dealership, so I took it back next day where they "looked for leaks" cleared codes and sent me packing. Next day brought it back due to the SES light again where 2 new oem primary sensors where sold/installed.
Left for FL to OK for the holidays. SES light over and over. Kept clearing.
Z-fever in Tampa, FL said I needed a tune in regards to the codes... So I got my first UpRev tune while I was there. I had never had a SES light since... Knowing what I know now they most likely just disabled those 2 codes.
October 2012 - (DEPLOYED) bought all my FI stuff
April 2013 - (RETURN)
June - dealer installed JWT clutch/Fly (500 break-in miles)
July - "Build" begins:
* Vortech V3
* ID 725"s (New intake gasket)
* Walbro
* UpRev GT MAF
* One piece MAF pipe
* Direct reading FP gauge/adapter
* Stillen oil pan
* Mocal t-plate and Earls cooler
* KOYO rad
* Larger PS cooler (trans cooler)
* Boost/vac gauge along with 2 widebands (both banks)
* Upgrade to full tuner version. (Osiris/UpRev)
September - Build complete and with the help of Seb @ Specialty Z a base map was created.
October - Left OK to TX for a tune by Steve Kan. Noticed my AFR's richening up during the 3 hour drive down there, but no SES light... Got the tune everything felt/looked great and AFR's where dialed in. On the drive home again AFR's began to richen up. Again, no SES light. Next day going to get gas, SES light (P2A00). Cleared, 10 minutes later same thing. Left it on and checked when I got home and had the P2A03 pending as well...
Started researching and saw fuel pressure could be a cause and stumbled across something I missed (swirl jet/regulator mod) during the fuel pump install. Performed the mods and cleared learned fuel settings back to TX I went for another tune due to FP being 14 psi lower. Again, AFR's richening and trying to correct. I sent the current ROM to Seb and he said it looked great.
Again everything looked/went fine, but the same issue happened on the way home and here we are... lol! P2A00 & P2A03 are the ONLY codes ever. Sorry so long. Just trying to cover all the bases. Thanks again!
Those logs where with it acting up. I will clear the learned fuel settings and get the AFR's back to normal and perform the same 3 logs here in the next few days. I see what you are referring to it not hitting target AFR's on the top end. I know its during open loop, but hopefully something will improve... When dyno or street tuning everything looks good and it seems to hit the targets just fine.
The SES light honestly comes on 99.9% of the time just cruising around town or on the highway with the CC set; so lower RPM's. Honestly, it was right about the time for it to come on after clearing the settings last.
I really think I have an exhaust leak or the narrow bands are not happy after the headers install for some reason... The headers where the only thing that started all this P2A00/P2A03 malarkey.
History;
March 2011 - bought car 100% stock
April - installed Borla Cat back, Berk HFC's & Stillen intake (no issues)
May - (DEPLOYED)
November - (RETURN) MREV2/spacer install (no issues)
December - Dealer installed Stillen headers. SES light on the way home from the dealership, so I took it back next day where they "looked for leaks" cleared codes and sent me packing. Next day brought it back due to the SES light again where 2 new oem primary sensors where sold/installed.
Left for FL to OK for the holidays. SES light over and over. Kept clearing.
Z-fever in Tampa, FL said I needed a tune in regards to the codes... So I got my first UpRev tune while I was there. I had never had a SES light since... Knowing what I know now they most likely just disabled those 2 codes.
October 2012 - (DEPLOYED) bought all my FI stuff
April 2013 - (RETURN)
June - dealer installed JWT clutch/Fly (500 break-in miles)
July - "Build" begins:
* Vortech V3
* ID 725"s (New intake gasket)
* Walbro
* UpRev GT MAF
* One piece MAF pipe
* Direct reading FP gauge/adapter
* Stillen oil pan
* Mocal t-plate and Earls cooler
* KOYO rad
* Larger PS cooler (trans cooler)
* Boost/vac gauge along with 2 widebands (both banks)
* Upgrade to full tuner version. (Osiris/UpRev)
September - Build complete and with the help of Seb @ Specialty Z a base map was created.
October - Left OK to TX for a tune by Steve Kan. Noticed my AFR's richening up during the 3 hour drive down there, but no SES light... Got the tune everything felt/looked great and AFR's where dialed in. On the drive home again AFR's began to richen up. Again, no SES light. Next day going to get gas, SES light (P2A00). Cleared, 10 minutes later same thing. Left it on and checked when I got home and had the P2A03 pending as well...
Started researching and saw fuel pressure could be a cause and stumbled across something I missed (swirl jet/regulator mod) during the fuel pump install. Performed the mods and cleared learned fuel settings back to TX I went for another tune due to FP being 14 psi lower. Again, AFR's richening and trying to correct. I sent the current ROM to Seb and he said it looked great.
Again everything looked/went fine, but the same issue happened on the way home and here we are... lol! P2A00 & P2A03 are the ONLY codes ever. Sorry so long. Just trying to cover all the bases. Thanks again!
Last edited by joeb1983; 10-29-2013 at 05:33 PM.
10-29-2013, 07:18 PM
#20
There's no need to break your logs up or clean up the data. My scripts go through and do that automatically anyway. If you want to know other stuff just provide me the info listed in https://my350z.com/forum/tuning/5847...some-data.html.