TK2005

No, I am right for sure....at least in Houston I am. Landmark Chevrolet is 5 minutes from my shop and every Vette on the lot has a $20K dealer markup making even your $45K Vette $65K. I know not everyone pays the markup but some have and YOU ARE going to pay some of the markup if you want one in Houston. That is base model Vette though. If you get one with any options or that upgrade package which is the most popular package (Z51 I belive) you are closer to the $57K mark before the dealer markup and TTL. It will easily cost you $65K for a loaded one and expect a $10K minimum price increase for the Z06 model (which is the one to supposedly run 11.5). With Chevy having no problem and a shortage of Vettes already, don't expect a great deal. Meanwhile, Nissan can't get rid of the new 05s on the lot and are dying to give them to you at invoice. So a loaded GT Roadster w/everything will be around $40K pre TTL while the loaded Vette will cost you $25K more and a base Z will cost near $28K pre TTL.

TK2005

Did you read the post at all. That would be the extra $8K I was talking about to sustain such power.

TK2005

TT Kit = $6500
Guages and tune = $1750
Install = $1750

Total = $10K
That's all that's necessay to run 400rwhp.

Want to upgrade your fuel system and clutch....add$2K.

What did I leave out that would add up $20K? Some of the ST guys are making 400rwhp for under $7K.

Spideynw

Well, if it is true that a new vette would cost $60k, then the Z is a WAY better deal then the vette. I have decided I would rather get an Enthusiast Z and FI it rather then get a vette anyways, even if I could get a vette for $44k.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

this all depends on opinion I suppose.

I consider a clutch and fuel upgrade a necessity, not an optional thing. You'll just fry up your stock clutch and the stock fuel system won't cut it with FI.

so starting with your $12000 for those parts,

LSD = $1000-2000 depending on which one you buy and install
wider wheels/tires = $3000-3500

The setup still doesn't have a built engine, EMS or emanage ultimate, cats/test pipes, exhaust, intake manifold, extra provisions for heat such as oil cooler, vented hood, thermowrapped parts, jethot coating, transmission cooler, differncial cooler, aftermarket radiator, possibly nismo thermostate, oil catch can

I dunno man, add it up...

Yeah for your typical street car your setup would be fine. If you take it on a road course you'll just overheat after 10 hard laps.

I'm sure you can easily crank the boost up without needing cats or exhaust or an intake manifold, but you're just going to be making the turbo working harder to do it which means more heat in the engine bay instead of making the engine flow more naturally

TK2005

You see my point though. For 400rwhp with no intention of upping the power later and not building a track car, $10K is plenty. I'll give you the clutch as the stock one will fry eventually although some are running without it so far but they are just waiting to burn theirs up and upgrade. The kit price at a lot of shops already includes the Walbro (???) pump. A complete fuel return system is another thing though. I agree that if I were going to build mine up then I would definitely do a clutch/flywheel, full exhaust, and intake plenum. I would also do an oil cooler and maybe a larger radiator and a catch can since they're cheap. I would agree that a Quaife LSD would be nice. EMS's are all included in the kit price. The factory brakes are fine and there have been many tests done to say even the stock non-brembo brakes are as good as the 14" StopTechs but they fade faster. If it is not a track car then it doesn't matter. Everyone upgrades their wheels so I assumed that would have already been done along with some suspension since they look nicer lowered. The point is a Z able to beat a C6 is just $7K away with a ST kit. It's actually even cheaper than that because you can run the 3.9 gears with a 100 shot of NOS and take a C6 and that is only $2500.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

well yeah of course I see your point about 400whp for less than $10k, but IMO it's still half assed. They're just going to spin tires, overheat, and burn up their clutch a lot.

when I said EMS, I was actually meaning standalone, but yeah a lot of kits come with a cheap piggyback to get you going.

I don't know how many FI Z's i've seen with 400+whp on totally stock wheels/tires.

yeah, well most cars can take a big nitrous shot and kill any more expensive car. Nitrous is cheap power.

When you say $7k will beat a C6, I guess you mean drag racing? ok that's on stock tires and no LSD? I'd say it might be lucky to break even with a C6 in the 1/4 mile without those things.

As far as handling goes - a C6 will destroy a Z with stock suspension and tires. So you need to add in $2-6k in suspension parts/alignment/labor (6k for those who want conrol arms, sway bars, bushings, as well as coilovers, also depends on what coilover they get)

IMO a FI Z isn't really competitive in all ways with a C6 until you spend about 20k and then you will hand it it's ***, unless it has mods too. C6 owners can spend $5k and get 70hp with headers, cats, exhaust, and cams. The Z is lucky to make 35-40hp with those bolt ons

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

yeah, where the C6 really kills the Z is in the 2nd half of the 1/4 mile. It just rips the rest of the way. Both cars being stock of course

I've been on the corvette forums a lot. My middle aged, gray haired, divorced (perfect stereotype) dad has a C6 and so I gotta learn the competition

seems 6MT C6's do around 12.5-12.7 with the sport package
6MT does 12.7-12.8 without sport package
4AT does 12.9 with sport package
4AT does 13.0 without sport package

give or take, that's roughly what they do in the 1/4 mile.

a FI Z's biggest hurdle in the 1/4 is traction and the gearing being too aggressive.


Of course serious 1/4 people will use racing tires. C6 people can run racing tires too and do low 12's-high 11's

TK2005

OK, couple things. They wouldn't just spin tires if they had good tires and proper tire pressure....thinking drag radials.

The Greddy comes with Emanage.

400 rwhp vs. 400 crank horses.....Z will win the drag race.

I think the Z handles great and with an additional 150rwhp should be able to overpower the C6 on the right tracks as long as there aren't too many laps.

If we are building a truly great track car then I would say get the C6. There's a reason those C5-Rs and C6-Rs are always finishing one and two. Anyone who isn't willing to admit the C6 is a better car than the Z is in denial. If we are talking about price being an issue and we are dealing with street cars then I say get the Z. What ever is done to the Z can be done to a Vette and then the Vette will come out on top again. If you make over $100K+ a year then by all means, get a C6 and mod the **** out of it. I love seeing 9 second Vettes. If you have a $50K budget and manage to get a used C6 in the next model year for less, then mod up to $50K. I guarantee a used Z modded up to $50K will destroy that Vette. Sadly most Vette owners will never even buy a $50 K&N air filter for the stock airbox in the Vette while the Z car is looked at as a tuner car. Not many people buy a Z to remain a stock Z while plenty of Vette owners will never do more than buy a Vette polo shirt and cap and maybe a jacket. I can afford probably any car I have ever wanted but I enjoy tuning a lot. I still haven't decided what car I am going to make my next project but having had a modded 300ZXTT before leans me towards a 350Z. The price of C5s has dropped a lot and with MTI right here in Houston that build 10 second Vettes and Vipers all day I have a lot to choose from. MTI offers what they call their Z07 package at a price of $19K. It turns your C5 into a 7.0 liter monster that runs 11 flat on street tires and comes with a 1 year warranty as long as you don't shoot N2O or some sort of F/I. Imagine doing some F/I on a car that already runs 11 flat all motor.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

yeah $5k of bolt on NA parts and some racing tires will get a C6 to high 11's in the 1/4 mile and pretty much have a full warrenty

I like the C6's specs, but I just don't like the car so much for some reason. I've driven my dad's a couple times and I just have too many complaints about it to fully enjoy the experience regardless if it's faster and handles better than a stock Z.

I like the idea of modding a Z more, and I can do it whenever I have some free cash. It's a more unique car, though I'll probably never sell it unless I want to seriously lose some big money

TK2005

What about the stock block F/I Z's running 11.6 and 11.3. I don't think even the all might Z06 can keep up with that.

TK2005

I don't think slicks will take a stock C6 from low 13's to high 11's.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

yes it will if you get the 6MT that runs 12.5 stock. Add in some racing slicks and you can do low 12's and high 11's. Read up on people's experiences




ok. sit down. Are you sitting down?

That Z that run 11.3 and 11.6 was an APS TT car.......with racing slicks or drag radials - forgot


the Z06 with stock street tires can run a 11.5 at 127mph

try putting some racing tires on the Z06, what do you think it'll run????? my guess? high 10's, low 11's

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

well of course a FI Z will hook with drag radials. It's kinda too bad that the Z's design won't allow a FI Z to fully hook without them though. Even really wide sticky street tires will only take you to around 12.3 sec regardless of if you have 400whp or 600whp. The gearing is just too aggressive.

the emanage is a simple piggyback. It has a couple issues, but gets the job done.
the emanage ultimate is a piggyback too, but it's a damn good one with a lot of features only standalones have.




a 400whp Z is not better than a 400 crank hp C6 exactly...
the Corvette comes stock with big wide tires and has the transmission mounted in the rear for more traction. It also has a much better LSD than the Z. The gearing on the C6 is less aggressive and more suited for drag racing. The Z's transmission is more suited for road courses because of how close the gears are to each other

TK2005

My experience at the local track shows most C6s to be a low 13 high 12 car. You give slicks too much credit. Slicks are not going to take a second off your time if you make 340rwhp or possibly even make a difference. You see racing slicks make a difference for cars that have traction problems. You can put slicks on a new Civic 16 second car. I doubt slicks will take a second off that car. There are no traction issues with the C6 and I doubt that slicks will even shave a tenth or two off the time. I expect a mid 12 C6 at best with slicks. I am not sure of the traction issues with a Z06 but judging from the 10.5 or 11 inch wide factory wheels requiring 305 tires as a standard wheel for the Z06 I am doubting too many traction issues. Also keep in mind again you are putting a Z06 priced at nearly $75-80K up against a 350Z (11.3 car) that cost the owner $25K used and near $15K in mods. I still stand on my dollar for dollar the Z makes more power idea.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

no there's a guy with stock MT C6, changed to the 4.10 gears and added drag radials....11.7@119mph


most corvette guys say drag radials will shave .3-.5 sec off times. I know the drivers at your track are doing low 13's, but some people are doing 12.5's in other places with their own car. there's quite a few actually. Just go to corvetteforum.com and read up. It might be that your local strip sucks, or the drivers aren't that great, or people are stuck using 91 octane gas when the C6 wants 93, or maybe your elevation is high? Also do you personally know the setup of each corvette? Were they ALL 6MT with sport packages? or were some autos? or some without the sport package? I'm talking about the fastest 6MT sport package C6. When were you at the track? How hot was it outside? humidity? lots of factors

That said, people generally say the Z gets between 13.9-14.2 in the 1/4 mile on average. Some tracks people do mid 14's all day and can't go any faster in a stock Z. Other people are able to do 13.6's completely stock. I wouldn't hold your particular drag strip as the benchmark for all C6's everywhere saying they can't possibly do a 12.5 in stock form.

And I said with racing tires a C6 could get low 12's or high 11's even. Not like a for sure 100% thing that you WILL get high 11's. But I don't think a 11.9x is unreasonable in the right conditions

TK2005

I am in Houston TX. Houston Raceway is the site for many large drag events. We are at sea level and we have 93 octane. This is very same track that the Performance Motorsport 1400hp Z laid down it's world record pass. I am sure the track doesn't get as much treatment for the weekly trophy nights as it does for major drag events. Our track conditions are very similar to AZ track conditions except during the summer when we are really humid. Maybe C6s with different gears run 12.5s but the bone stock ones aren't doing it around here. Just the same as some of the Z guys running the 3.9 gears are running 13.1. As far as knowing their setup is besides the point. I am assuming no mods....it doesn't get slower than that. Like I said before, do the C6s have traction problems? If not then the slicks aren't going to do anything except let you launch at a slightly higher RPM if it doesn't bog you down. I am not down playing the C6 as we both know it is a superior machine but for purposes of this discussion the Z with enough money in mods to equal the price of a stock C6 will go to the Z. I know the same argument can be made for a Civic with the same amount of mods to equal the Z's price but I think style wise, engineering wise, and just plain fun factor the Z and C6 are very near the same level not like comparing a Z to a Civic with mods. We can do this all night but in the end, The Z can be made into a better car for the same price of the C6. With money as no object the C6 will surely be better. I haven't taken the plunge into Vette ownership as the cost of a toy is too much considering I am just building a nice street car and not a track warrior. I think 450rwhp would be as much as I will ever need on the street and I think I can get the Z there for cheaper than the C6 and still look just as good if not better.