Z's and young drivers are not the only ones who crash... "Both Pedals Down"
 

I read an interesting article recently in the Wall Street Journal. The article describes the increasing number of crashes involving exotic "sport" cars. The focus here was not on teenagers driving fast Nissan, Subaru, or other less expensive but powerful cars; instead the article is specific to European exotics driven by middle aged to older males (40-60) who can afford fast cars costing $100K to $300K or more $'s. Apparently the combination of cars with 500+ horsepower in the hands of incapable drivers is becoming a problem that the police and insurance companies are noticing (and they are compiling statistics).

The WSJ article points out that these exotics are equipped with Electronic Stability Control Systems (ESCS), and middle-aged to older drivers usually have the ESCS's turned on. But, they still are crashing at a higher rate; and probably because the exotics have such powerful engines that are beyond the driver's skill-level.

According to the article, this age-group learned to drive in the 1960's on rear wheel drive cars that did not have electronic features such as ABS and ESCS. This generation learned to counter-steer and "pump the brakes" in emergency maneuvers. The "exotic-car-crash" problem may be compounded because the driver encountering a loss-of-control reverts to 1960's Driver-Education Methodology and attempts to "help" the active ABS and ESCS by counter-steering and pumping the brakes. Of course this can interfere with the operation of the electronic systems that are trying to stop the car while keeping its direction straight to the front wheels, and the result is a crash.

Modern driving schools mentioned in the article train owners of 500+ hp exotics to drive these cars more safely. It's interesting that these driving schools recommend keeping Electronic Stability Control Systems turned on. One technique mentioned in the WSJ article (and taught by a driving school the article mentions) was the "Both Pedals Down" method. This technique calls for the driver (when there is a total loss of control of the car) to fully depress both the brake and clutch pedals, allowing the vehicle's ABS and ESCS to take control, and the driver does nothing else and simply "rides it out."

--Spike

Considering that I do not drive an exotic with 500 horsepower, maybe the article is not for me.

Both pedals down is not a technique that I learned in HPDE. In a spin, hard on the brakes with the transmission engaged stops the car pretty fast. And yes, I have been unfortunate enough to use the technique.

Never mind. I do not have VDC.

Glad you brought that article to my attention. Being one of those older drivers I'm going to pass on that 500 hp car I was thinking of buying as a second set of wheels.

Actually, the saying goes "In a spin? Both pedals in!". You don't want to and probably don't have the time to do it for minor incidents, i.e. those where you don't get into a full fledged loss of control.

or the people with that kind of power in a car could just lets say slow down a bit :D ... i mean sure its not as fun as pushing a car from time to time, but if you can fork out the cash for that kind of exotic car then they should be able to use some more of their money for some track time... i mean i dont think you'll need to worry as much about hurting yourself or others on a track, and its not like you'll get a ticket for speeding or reckless driving.

seems to me if you get some good track time you wont feel the need to speed on public roads and could make you drive safer. I don't know though maybe i dont get the artical

Actually, if you take a corner too fast and also with the gas mashed, the rear end will kick out and the LAST thing you want to do is hit the brakes. Pressing the brakes while the a.ss is out will transfer all the weight to the front of the car, and the rear wheels will virtually be tractionless, inducing more spin. If your a.ss ever kicks out beyond your control, simply let off the gas very smoothly and try your best to not Over-counter-steer.

You understand... As you say, a driving school or the track is where you do this; it's foolish to drive that way on the street. These cars will catapult you from 30 mph to 60 mph in just under two seconds. If you lose traction in this scenario (and especially if you are turning, and no matter how slightly), you had better be "race-driver" proficient or have a great Electronic Stability Control System, or both.

--Spike

What you describe is exactly what a driver in a rotating car should do when the vehicle is not equipped with an Electronic Stability Control System (or the system is turned off).

But, that is not what you want to do if your car has an Electronic Stability Control System (Nissan calls it Vehicle Dynamic Control; the acronym is VDC). If you are starting to spin, and you press hard on the brake pedal; Nissan's VDC (along with TCS and ABS) becomes active. You will experience TCS (to kill power to the rear wheels), Active Braking (maximum pressure on the brakes), ABS (prevents brake lockup), and selective braking that attempts to bring the car to the direction the front wheels are pointing.

--Spike

I got one thing to say:

HPDE

This happened to me the other day. The backend kicked out and I went swerving all over the road with my car going at a 45 degree angle towards a poll. My instincts were to let off the gas then then all the years of playing video games kicked in to try and steer the car back. THANK GOD at the last second i caught traction and missed the curb and pole by inches!! The TCS was turned off and since it was an AT there was no VDC. I am now driving around with TCS turned "ON" and extreemly cautious when taking U-turns, at faster rates of speed. SCARY LESSON LEARNED!

G's and Z's are very tailhappy cars, as such any high horsepower RWD car...That's why Ive been sticking to going fast in straight lines only, not around a corner :icon39:

The dealers should be giving away tickets to high performance driving schools with purchase of 500+ hp cars.

Insurance companies should give discounts for people who attend and pass such classes once a year.

Chris

With all the Enzo and LP640 Roadster crashes I am hearing about I am not surprised that was a rise in wrecked exotics. Clearly the people buying these are just buying them for status and have no idea how to drive, which means they don't deserve to own one.

yeah i was taught this in racing also. that and knowing how to control a car with that kind of power is paramount.

most people learn from "more expansive way.." (crash)

Well I am one of those older drivers who learned to pump the brakes and steer around obstacles driving rallys in a 67 Cougar with a 390 4 barrel anchor for a motor :) But I cannot say that I have pumped the brakes anytime recently since Mercedes ABS brakes don't even howl when in ABS mode. It is the howling that triggers primitive primordial pumping of the brakes. This is truly a non-conscious or "pre-conscious" event. One way to "break" this potty training is to purposefully panic stop in the snow in a parking lot at slow speed.

I still steer into a slide so I may be some kind of dinosaur waiting to be an accident statistic.

Same here (all that you mention above). It's been hard for me to do, but I have managed to trust the car's Electronic Stability Control System.

The worst thing to do (when ESCS is active) is changing the direction of the front wheels (counter-steering is an example) since ESCS will attempt to align the car with the direction of the front wheels.

... It's an entirely different strategy from what we learned in 1960's driver education.

--Spike

well im still 16, and ive been driving my z for 8 months now, and ive never crashed, and no tickets, (knock on wood) but im gonna make sure to keep it that way

I agree with part of your statement - "ESCS will attempt to align the car with the direction of the front wheels", but I disagree with the other part -- "the worst thing to do is changing the direction of the front wheels". The problem is that people often over-correct and countersteer too much. If they would countersteer half as much the car would be less likely to snap back.

True, in the wet when i spin out, i counter steer (i dont pump the brakes though) and ABS and TCS roll me forward into the kerb (got a scratched bumper). If the wheels locked, i would spin around while staying on the road.