Pushing through a curve?
10-10-2017, 06:29 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Pushing through a curve?
Hey I have a question that I have been trying to think through for a while now. I have also been trying to google my question, but I don't know how to word it I guess. This is geared towards experienced performance drivers, I think.
I've read quite a few times on this forum that the Z is great at being able to push through a curve during tire spin(don't quote me on this, might be thinking of a different way someone said it). So my question is this: If I'm taking a tight curve at high speeds and I break traction in my rear wheels, what's the best course of action here? I have never experienced this and nor will I ever attempt this off a track, but I've always wondered how would someone properly stay on the curve and throttle their way out of it...
I've experienced hydroplaning and sliding on snow a lot due to living in Iowa, and I am very experienced at correcting this, but I don't know if the concept applies on dry concrete.
Thanks in advance, I've been trying to find a HPDE course around here, but they're all a good drive from where I live.
I've read quite a few times on this forum that the Z is great at being able to push through a curve during tire spin(don't quote me on this, might be thinking of a different way someone said it). So my question is this: If I'm taking a tight curve at high speeds and I break traction in my rear wheels, what's the best course of action here? I have never experienced this and nor will I ever attempt this off a track, but I've always wondered how would someone properly stay on the curve and throttle their way out of it...
I've experienced hydroplaning and sliding on snow a lot due to living in Iowa, and I am very experienced at correcting this, but I don't know if the concept applies on dry concrete.
Thanks in advance, I've been trying to find a HPDE course around here, but they're all a good drive from where I live.
10-10-2017, 06:59 PM
#2
The best course of action is to make the proper solution and fix.
There is no one word answer to solve this question. By pushing through the curve with the back end sliding it allowing the rear to continue its path until it aligns back with the front wheels around the corner and flows through the momentum of the car.
But, that's all on feel. If your back end is overtaking your front by too much and you stay into it you will just make things worse by just "pushing" through the corner.
Pushing through the turn is meaning don't lift if you lose slight traction, but it's a feel and limitation thing riding the edge. It's not just a pin it to win it saying. It's a momentum and fluid feel technique to help drivers in specific applications to push shoving past the rear traction limits but still hold the required traction to keep momentum and speed through the corner with out losing control or letting off the gas.
It's a very simple complicated technique. But just don't expect to read this and go and "push" through every corner you see. Again it's very feel dependent, car dependent, set up dependent and many other things for this to 1) work, 2) be useful and assist in faster driving.
There is no one word answer to solve this question. By pushing through the curve with the back end sliding it allowing the rear to continue its path until it aligns back with the front wheels around the corner and flows through the momentum of the car.
But, that's all on feel. If your back end is overtaking your front by too much and you stay into it you will just make things worse by just "pushing" through the corner.
Pushing through the turn is meaning don't lift if you lose slight traction, but it's a feel and limitation thing riding the edge. It's not just a pin it to win it saying. It's a momentum and fluid feel technique to help drivers in specific applications to push shoving past the rear traction limits but still hold the required traction to keep momentum and speed through the corner with out losing control or letting off the gas.
It's a very simple complicated technique. But just don't expect to read this and go and "push" through every corner you see. Again it's very feel dependent, car dependent, set up dependent and many other things for this to 1) work, 2) be useful and assist in faster driving.
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Theminatar (10-10-2017)
10-10-2017, 07:06 PM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
The best course of action is to make the proper solution and fix.
There is no one word answer to solve this question. By pushing through the curve with the back end sliding it allowing the rear to continue its path until it aligns back with the front wheels around the corner and flows through the momentum of the car.
But, that's all on feel. If your back end is overtaking your front by too much and you stay into it you will just make things worse by just "pushing" through the corner.
Pushing through the turn is meaning don't lift if you lose slight traction, but it's a feel and limitation thing riding the edge. It's not just a pin it to win it saying. It's a momentum and fluid feel technique to help drivers in specific applications to push shoving past the rear traction limits but still hold the required traction to keep momentum and speed through the corner with out losing control or letting off the gas.
It's a very simple complicated technique. But just don't expect to read this and go and "push" through every corner you see. Again it's very feel dependent, car dependent, set up dependent and many other things for this to 1) work, 2) be useful and assist in faster driving.
There is no one word answer to solve this question. By pushing through the curve with the back end sliding it allowing the rear to continue its path until it aligns back with the front wheels around the corner and flows through the momentum of the car.
But, that's all on feel. If your back end is overtaking your front by too much and you stay into it you will just make things worse by just "pushing" through the corner.
Pushing through the turn is meaning don't lift if you lose slight traction, but it's a feel and limitation thing riding the edge. It's not just a pin it to win it saying. It's a momentum and fluid feel technique to help drivers in specific applications to push shoving past the rear traction limits but still hold the required traction to keep momentum and speed through the corner with out losing control or letting off the gas.
It's a very simple complicated technique. But just don't expect to read this and go and "push" through every corner you see. Again it's very feel dependent, car dependent, set up dependent and many other things for this to 1) work, 2) be useful and assist in faster driving.
Because from what I'm understanding, it's different than just drifting a corner correct?
10-10-2017, 07:51 PM
#4
General & DIY Moderator
MY350Z.COM
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First off, taking a turn at high speed reduces your options of "throttling out of it". The factory handling setup of the Z33 is set to understeer, or "push" in NASCAR speak. This is desirable for many cars, as understeer usually gives more warning when the front tires begin losing traction.
But that changes when a Z driver comes into a tight turn and uses the brakes HARD. Weight shifts forward, and the back end gets light. Going to throttle immediately means the rear tires may break loose and create a condition known as "snap oversteer". Many Porsche 911 drivers have gone bassackwards off the road because of this and it can catch inexperienced Z pilots out as well.
While this might be what drifters are looking for, it's also a good way to damage your Z if a novice overcorrects, or ham handed (footed) efforts ensue. But practice in the right arena, whether its a racetrack or even solo (autocross) competition, will help develop the right skills and reactions.
But that changes when a Z driver comes into a tight turn and uses the brakes HARD. Weight shifts forward, and the back end gets light. Going to throttle immediately means the rear tires may break loose and create a condition known as "snap oversteer". Many Porsche 911 drivers have gone bassackwards off the road because of this and it can catch inexperienced Z pilots out as well.
While this might be what drifters are looking for, it's also a good way to damage your Z if a novice overcorrects, or ham handed (footed) efforts ensue. But practice in the right arena, whether its a racetrack or even solo (autocross) competition, will help develop the right skills and reactions.
Last edited by dkmura; 10-10-2017 at 07:53 PM.
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Theminatar (10-10-2017)
10-10-2017, 08:31 PM
#5
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
I've read quite a few times on this forum that the Z is great at being able to push through a curve during tire spin(don't quote me on this, might be thinking of a different way someone said it). So my question is this: If I'm taking a tight curve at high speeds and I break traction in my rear wheels, what's the best course of action here? I have never experienced this and nor will I ever attempt this off a track, but I've always wondered how would someone properly stay on the curve and throttle their way out of it...
I've experienced hydroplaning and sliding on snow a lot due to living in Iowa, and I am very experienced at correcting this, but I don't know if the concept applies on dry concrete.
Thanks in advance, I've been trying to find a HPDE course around here, but they're all a good drive from where I live.
First off, taking a turn at high speed reduces your options of "throttling out of it". The factory handling setup of the Z33 is set to understeer, or "push" in NASCAR speak. This is desirable for many cars, as understeer usually gives more warning when the front tires begin losing traction.
But that changes when a Z driver comes into a tight turn and uses the brakes HARD. Weight shifts forward, and the back end gets light. Going to throttle immediately means the rear tires may break loose and create a condition known as "snap oversteer". Many Porsche 911 drivers have gone bassackwards off the road because of this and it can catch inexperienced Z pilots out as well.
While this might be what drifters are looking for, it's also a good way to damage your Z if a novice overcorrects, or ham handed (footed) efforts ensue. But practice in the right arena, whether its a racetrack or even solo (autocross) competition, will help develop the right skills and reactions.
But that changes when a Z driver comes into a tight turn and uses the brakes HARD. Weight shifts forward, and the back end gets light. Going to throttle immediately means the rear tires may break loose and create a condition known as "snap oversteer". Many Porsche 911 drivers have gone bassackwards off the road because of this and it can catch inexperienced Z pilots out as well.
While this might be what drifters are looking for, it's also a good way to damage your Z if a novice overcorrects, or ham handed (footed) efforts ensue. But practice in the right arena, whether its a racetrack or even solo (autocross) competition, will help develop the right skills and reactions.
But really, there's really NO WAY to answer this accurately over the internet.
When you say, "If I'm taking a tight curve at high speeds and I break traction in my rear wheels", what does this really mean?
Think about it: Where are you in the turn?
Hot entry-under hard or late braking? OR... threshold braking approaching the apex OR under feather throttle post-apex OR yer off the binders and on loud pedal only at the exit?
See my point? There's so many things going on in that one turn that for anyone to try and give you a real answer here is doing you a disservice without know any of these things. Or ideally, being in the car with you.
Every one of these scenarios and location-movement will dictate a slightly different approach for catching the tail out or using it to your advantage.
- Might be a left foot brake to momentarily shift weight back over the front wheels to increase your front tires footprint and of course returning grip to them in order to recover from a push situation (severe understeer) or...
- Maintaining trail braking to even out the braking forces/tire contact to shift weight around fore/aft or...
- Left foot brake AND light accelerator to "bring it around some" by changing the lateral dynamics (centrifugal or centripetal forces) of the impending spin or...
Blah blah blah.... and on and on.
NOTE that I didn't say which for which condition. Not gonna do that as some fool (not you, OP) might just go out there and try these techniques.... all at the wrong time because they're "trying to remember what that dude said on the internet". BZZZZZZZZZZTTTTT.
It would be foolhardy to even try WITHOUT first understanding the "WHY" and at least have some knowledge of the physics behind your car's behavior.
#drivingschool #HPDE #autocross
They're all good venues for learning these things, learning your car and most importantly, learning YOURSELF and your limitations (and how to minimize those limitations.). Pleased to see your comment regarding doing so and learning the only real way....practice, practice, and then go out and practice some more.
Last edited by MicVelo; 10-10-2017 at 08:32 PM.
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Theminatar (10-10-2017)
10-10-2017, 09:06 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
This is why I love this forum, thank you for the very thorough response. I know there's so many different factors, and I do appreciate you all for providing some basic input on the subject. I never push myself past my limits or my cars limits. Unless it's a snowy empty parking lot 
Last edited by Theminatar; 10-10-2017 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Nvm I'll use google
10-11-2017, 05:14 PM
#7
New Member
^All good advice from some racers.
If you're just starting, some simple advice would be (mostly duplication)...It sounds like you're carrying too much corner speed forcing you to brake and then accelerate. Do ALL your braking before the turn in. As mentioned ^ if you brake while in the turn the weight of the car shifts to the front wheels. At this point, on the throttle spins the rears cus no rear weight.
The easiest way to learn a turn and be able to concentrate on your line - and look past the apex is as I said do ALL your braking before you start to turn and light and smooth and the gas. Try to keep the weight equal front and rear = more adhesion.
Speed through the turn is important (momentum), but if there's a straight after it, your exit speed and line is where you make time. Also, spinning your rears in a turn will cost you time, wear the tires and cause a momentary loss of control (right where control is everything). Think more where you want to be after the turn and adjust your corner speed to get you there with momentum. If you master nothing else, master this.
The "track" really is the only safe place to learn your limits and the cars.
Oh, and no, traction on the snow is not the same physics (minimal off/on weight transfer)as traction and momentum on the track forty years of experience on the white stuff
If you're just starting, some simple advice would be (mostly duplication)...It sounds like you're carrying too much corner speed forcing you to brake and then accelerate. Do ALL your braking before the turn in. As mentioned ^ if you brake while in the turn the weight of the car shifts to the front wheels. At this point, on the throttle spins the rears cus no rear weight.
The easiest way to learn a turn and be able to concentrate on your line - and look past the apex is as I said do ALL your braking before you start to turn and light and smooth and the gas. Try to keep the weight equal front and rear = more adhesion.
Speed through the turn is important (momentum), but if there's a straight after it, your exit speed and line is where you make time. Also, spinning your rears in a turn will cost you time, wear the tires and cause a momentary loss of control (right where control is everything). Think more where you want to be after the turn and adjust your corner speed to get you there with momentum. If you master nothing else, master this.
The "track" really is the only safe place to learn your limits and the cars.
Oh, and no, traction on the snow is not the same physics (minimal off/on weight transfer)as traction and momentum on the track forty years of experience on the white stuff
Last edited by carbuffguy; 10-11-2017 at 05:44 PM.
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Theminatar (10-11-2017)
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10-11-2017, 08:30 PM
#8
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM
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Slow speed corners are always a battle for traction, just can’t get to greedy
10-11-2017, 08:34 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
So it's definitely just learning the limitations of the car on curves. I've always slowed down before the turn, I never slow down while in a curve because of the above reasons. I just need to find a track to learn the limitations of my car.
10-11-2017, 09:32 PM
#10
I think understanding basic principles will help. Then find a local autocross to get a feel for how your car behaves when you drive past the limit while you practice how to counter that behavior to keep your car in the direction you intended.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
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10-12-2017, 03:35 AM
#11
New Member
I think understanding basic principles will help. Then find a local autocross to get a feel for how your car behaves when you drive past the limit while you practice how to counter that behavior to keep your car in the direction you intended.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
10-12-2017, 08:16 AM
#12
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
I think understanding basic principles will help. Then find a local autocross to get a feel for how your car behaves when you drive past the limit while you practice how to counter that behavior to keep your car in the direction you intended.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
)But ya, "driver's education" - at least here in Northern California - is no longer taught in school (like when I first took "driving lessons" in a driving simulator and got bored and instead of paying attention, played with the manual shifter, only to be called out by the instructor for "destroying the transmission and crashing multiple times".... laff....true story.)
Actual driving lessons are also no longer offered by San Francisco (and area) schools; instead, parent-paid private lessons are the only way to go. (And when I predjudiciously looked at the backgrounds of some of the instructors, I know it's gonna be a disaster because for many, it's "just a job". Hahaha.)
I personally taught my two kids how to drive (both automatic trans. and following licensing, manual transmission) BEFORE their pro lessons. THEN, a year (or so) of driving, it was followed by a "teen driving course" at the track. Skid control, slalom, and other defensive methodologies were taught there.
Point: it took a lot of paid-for training before I let the younguns drive Z cars. Hahahahaaaaaaaa.
Oh yeah..... #drivingschool
Last edited by MicVelo; 10-12-2017 at 08:19 AM.
10-12-2017, 11:55 AM
#13
General & DIY Moderator
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iTrader: (64)
Good stuff in this thread. It's refreshing when driving techniques or philosophies are being discussed rather than ""help me fix my BROKE car". And rather than talk about modding your Z, why not figure out how the nut behind the wheel can improve? It's unbelievable what people are missing out on (particularly driving the Z) by not making an effort to step up their own driving skills!
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10-12-2017, 05:20 PM
#14
Honestly OP tho there is TONS of great advice from some AMAZING drivers here.
If you REALLY want to learn this instantly. Don't autocross or go to learn with trial by fire.
Take an advanced driving instructional course. Like a actual racing school. This is day 1 stuff in a race school and you will probably learn 1,000x the amount you would trying to Google stuff and learn in one day what you might learn in 50 track sessions.
If you have a local driving school take it. You will learn a LOT. And it will probably be fun for you. Maybe even take one where they send you out on track with a instructor to apply the learned techniques to cement it in and let you actually feel and do what you learned in class.
If you REALLY want to learn this instantly. Don't autocross or go to learn with trial by fire.
Take an advanced driving instructional course. Like a actual racing school. This is day 1 stuff in a race school and you will probably learn 1,000x the amount you would trying to Google stuff and learn in one day what you might learn in 50 track sessions.
If you have a local driving school take it. You will learn a LOT. And it will probably be fun for you. Maybe even take one where they send you out on track with a instructor to apply the learned techniques to cement it in and let you actually feel and do what you learned in class.
Last edited by CK_32; 10-12-2017 at 05:22 PM.
10-12-2017, 05:29 PM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
I think understanding basic principles will help. Then find a local autocross to get a feel for how your car behaves when you drive past the limit while you practice how to counter that behavior to keep your car in the direction you intended.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
Your tires have a finite amount of traction. You can use that traction for Acceleration or Braking, or cornering. (Or a combination of the 3 at reduced rates)
One factor in the traction of each tire is the weight placed upon it. Too little weight and you lose traction. More weight on the contact patch generally means more traction (Given the same friction surface) until you surpass the limits of physics, and then once past, traction diminishes quickly!
You can use the brakes and throttle to increase weight bias to the front or to the rear but you can't defy physics. Before you start playing, you have to know if your car generally understeers or oversteers and how to correct properly in those scenarios. I'd recommend a local Autox for that. if you lose control, at worst you'll hit a few cones - if the course is set up right. Track speeds can be high and the penalty for failure there can he high.
If you go too fast into a corner and then hit the brakes hard, you may unweight the rear tires so that they lose traction and the back-end may tend to come around causing a spin or partial slide. So hitting the brakes is the last thing you want to do in a panic situation. If you are coming in too fast, even using late braking and you still feel you are too fast for the corner, give it some throttle to help distribute weight evenly front to rear. At that point, you know you are not going to be able to slow down sufficiently so let your tires use all of their grip for cornering/steering. Avoid any sudden or jerky movements.
The only way to learn how to drive your car is to push it past it's limits which is never a good idea on the streets.
I wish Autocross was practiced at driving ed school so people knew how to maneuver in an emergency situation.
Well said. (Wish I'd said that. )
But ya, "driver's education" - at least here in Northern California - is no longer taught in school (like when I first took "driving lessons" in a driving simulator and got bored and instead of paying attention, played with the manual shifter, only to be called out by the instructor for "destroying the transmission and crashing multiple times".... laff....true story.)
Actual driving lessons are also no longer offered by San Francisco (and area) schools; instead, parent-paid private lessons are the only way to go. (And when I predjudiciously looked at the backgrounds of some of the instructors, I know it's gonna be a disaster because for many, it's "just a job". Hahaha.)
I personally taught my two kids how to drive (both automatic trans. and following licensing, manual transmission) BEFORE their pro lessons. THEN, a year (or so) of driving, it was followed by a "teen driving course" at the track. Skid control, slalom, and other defensive methodologies were taught there.
Point: it took a lot of paid-for training before I let the younguns drive Z cars. Hahahahaaaaaaaa.
Oh yeah..... #drivingschool
)But ya, "driver's education" - at least here in Northern California - is no longer taught in school (like when I first took "driving lessons" in a driving simulator and got bored and instead of paying attention, played with the manual shifter, only to be called out by the instructor for "destroying the transmission and crashing multiple times".... laff....true story.)
Actual driving lessons are also no longer offered by San Francisco (and area) schools; instead, parent-paid private lessons are the only way to go. (And when I predjudiciously looked at the backgrounds of some of the instructors, I know it's gonna be a disaster because for many, it's "just a job". Hahaha.)
I personally taught my two kids how to drive (both automatic trans. and following licensing, manual transmission) BEFORE their pro lessons. THEN, a year (or so) of driving, it was followed by a "teen driving course" at the track. Skid control, slalom, and other defensive methodologies were taught there.
Point: it took a lot of paid-for training before I let the younguns drive Z cars. Hahahahaaaaaaaa.
Oh yeah..... #drivingschool
Honestly OP tho there is TONS of great advice from some AMAZING drivers here.
If you REALLY want to learn this instantly. Don't autocross or go to learn with trial by fire.
Take an advanced driving instructional course. Like a actual racing school. This is day 1 stuff in a race school and you will probably learn 1,000x the amount you would trying to Google stuff and learn in one day what you might learn in 50 track sessions.
If you have a local driving school take it. You will learn a LOT. And it will probably be fun for you. Maybe even take one where they send you out on track with a instructor to apply the learned techniques to cement it in and let you actually feel and do what you learned in class.
If you REALLY want to learn this instantly. Don't autocross or go to learn with trial by fire.
Take an advanced driving instructional course. Like a actual racing school. This is day 1 stuff in a race school and you will probably learn 1,000x the amount you would trying to Google stuff and learn in one day what you might learn in 50 track sessions.
If you have a local driving school take it. You will learn a LOT. And it will probably be fun for you. Maybe even take one where they send you out on track with a instructor to apply the learned techniques to cement it in and let you actually feel and do what you learned in class.
I'd love to take a course, but I am having the hardest time finding anything within a 100-150mi drive sadly.
I've taken drivers ed when I was younger, and sadly they don't teach you anything like we're currently discussing. The only things I have learned was from personal experience during emergency situations.
Last edited by Theminatar; 10-12-2017 at 05:33 PM.
10-13-2017, 06:04 AM
#16
General & DIY Moderator
MY350Z.COM
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Depending on where you live in Iowa, Raceway Park of the Midlands might be an option (http://www.racewayparkofthemidlands.com/site/Home). It's a mostly flat, but very challenging road circuit near the Omaha/Council Bluffs area. They have weekly events and are very affordable. I instructed there at a NICO event when it was called the Mid-America Motorplex) and it's got a wide variety of turns to exercise your Z.
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Theminatar (10-13-2017)
10-13-2017, 06:23 AM
#17
It's a bit further away but Road America In WI has two affordable introductory driving classes covering basic car control and track driving.
Its also a great place to camp for a weekend and watch some Indycar or IMSA endurance racing if you're into that.
Its also a great place to camp for a weekend and watch some Indycar or IMSA endurance racing if you're into that.
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Theminatar (10-13-2017)
10-13-2017, 01:13 PM
#18
New Member
#2 leave the VDC on! This stops you from breaking rule #1. When the computer senses wheel spin it kills the power and applies the brakes as needed. The system reacts way faster then you can and will normally manage the situation just fine. Sure the VDC nanny is over protective, she steps in constantly and too aggressively but this will save your bacon to ensure your body panels stay dent free. Honestly you have to do something really stupid to get out of shape with VDC on. I would guess that 75% of Zs that go crunch had the traction control turned off.
#3 don't do anything sudden. Quick application (IE: OMG!!!) of the brakes, throttle or steering will cause the weight to transfer to another corner. This throws the balance of the car off and will likely lead to things getting much worse (total loss of control). As mentioned by others your tires only have so much grip. That grip can be used to accelerate, brake or turn but only ONE of these will be truly optimized. Since turning is normally the important one (to avoid driving off a cliff) you have to get off the gas or brakes. Thanks to ABS you can stay ON the brakes and traction control should take care of gas... unless you didn't follow item #2.
#4 if the car gets out of shape lift off the throttle and let the steering wheel go slightly loose in your hands, some very slight counter correction may be required. In most cases amazingly the car will sort itself out given enough space, unless the road surface (ice, water, loose gravel, etc) caused the problem. The idea that you can "power out" is from the drifters handbook. Sure it works... but only for professionals with tons of experience. If you have ever seen a video of someone learning to drift they screw it 99 up out of 100 times.
The Z naturally understeers especially with a stock tire setup, thus if you are pushing too hard the front tires will give up first, squealing in protest. The only way the Z is going to spin out in this situation is if you a) apply the brakes too hard, b) use the throttle in attempt to power out, or c) apply way too much steering input. Normally in this situation the weight is on the nose, thus its quite easy to get the rear tires to spin. This is how you go from slight understeer to snap oversteer in a split second.
The real problem is if the car is sliding then at some point your momentum will slow enough that grip returns. This happens suddenly and will catch you off guard for sure. At this point you are either: a) stopped - in the ditch or worse - or b) have the steering wheel turned in the opposite direction in attempt to "catch it" but still have too much momentum. Since cars are heavy things when combined with higher speeds they to stay in motion - that whole laws of physics kicks in! When the wheel is turned in attempts to counter steer and grip returns the car immediately heads off in the way its aimed. End result is guaranteed to be a crash or a repeating loop of the whole scenario (IE: a tank slapper where the rear wiggles back and forth). Once again the balance you see drifters hold is VERY difficult to achieve, steering angle and throttle position have to work together perfectly for you to power out of such a situation. You have to FEEL what the tires are doing and be that fraction of second ahead of what is actually happening because the car doesn't respond instantly - as its a Datsun and not a Formula 1 miracle machine.
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Theminatar (10-13-2017)
10-13-2017, 04:41 PM
#19
Registered User
Wow those are great replies above! Only thing I can add is something I learned at Skip Barber at Road America: Look where you want to go, especially if you start to lose control. Even if you get completely sideways, your eyes will automatically tell your hands where to point the car if you’re looking there. So keep your eyes on the road/track! Don’t dare look at the barriers!
Of course if you’re out of control completely this ain’t gonna help, but it helps a lot if the rear breaks away or you hit oil etc.
Of course if you’re out of control completely this ain’t gonna help, but it helps a lot if the rear breaks away or you hit oil etc.
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Theminatar (10-13-2017)
10-13-2017, 10:30 PM
#20
Registered User
Thread Starter
Depending on where you live in Iowa, Raceway Park of the Midlands might be an option (http://www.racewayparkofthemidlands.com/site/Home). It's a mostly flat, but very challenging road circuit near the Omaha/Council Bluffs area. They have weekly events and are very affordable. I instructed there at a NICO event when it was called the Mid-America Motorplex) and it's got a wide variety of turns to exercise your Z.
#1 of course is to not break traction in the first place. Just slow down enough to handle the turn at the correct speed. Slow in / fast out is the racer rule for a reason... so when it doubt - slow down! A general tip I use with students during HPDE is act as if your steering wheel and throttle are connected via a direct pulley system. This means you can
Also I'm really happy I ended up making this thread, because I had this whole thing in my head wrong. I actually thought people were basically "drifting" out of corners with their Z on the road, and that was really confusing to me. But now I understand it all a bit better now. I'm still for sure going to attend a class this summer though so I can truly understand my car better, and be able to navigate my Z in sticky situations. I'm used to driving a truck, not a sports car haha.
Last edited by Theminatar; 10-13-2017 at 10:52 PM.