N80

I know the answer to this question so maybe I'm just looking for validation. I'm a track day instructor. I run HPDE 4 for fun (open passing). I may do TT at some point but I will probably never race WTW.

I do this 4-5 times a year and run at tracks like VIR where I'm hitting 140+ in a stock 07 Z and last time I was there was running with Ferrari Challenge cars and Porsche GT3 Cup cars all the way down to DD Miatas. So speed and speed differential are there.

With the DE2 driver getting killed last year at Road Atlanta I've started being more concerned about safety.

I've got a race seat. Getting a custom roll bar next month. Ordering a 6 point harness tonight and I'm running out of money.

Was talking to a friend about this who said he would not wear a race harness without a HANS. That may just be his preference but I can see his point. In a race seat with harnesses your body is going to be held in place and the airbag is not going to be a factor which means your head is the only thing unrestrained.

So, HANS for DE? Overkill? I know when it comes to safety more is always better but wonder if this is important or if I will look and feel silly wearing a HANS in DE4.

Then, if I do go for a device, any opinions about NecksGen vs HANS?

Of course the elephant in the room is what about when I'm in the care with a student? Some of my students have been as fast as I am and some of them have faster cars. I know they make hybrid devices but they look really uncomfortable.

MicVelo

I cannot answer any specific question about HANS vs NecksGen or.... but will make this comment: MORE SAFE IS MORE SAFE.

Who cares about how silly you may feel? Think about how silly you look in traction...

They didn't have HANS devices when I was racing. Hell, anti-sub belts were still somewhat new. But I know for FACT that if I'd had MORE safety gear, I'da left the track in my transporter instead of the pre-caution ambulance when I backed off course. (Fortunately, no lingering damage.)

And I'm sure dkmura - who I hope chimes in here - will tell you about why he wishes.... well, not to get ahead of him but I'm sure he'll have some very important info for you.

Don't matter if it's DE, car testing, W2W, TA.... the car is still at speed and your life is still at the whim of physics and your defiance of same.

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

If you run harnesses, HANS absolutely. If you instruct, I would seriously consider a hybrid device. This decision takes a back seat to comfort unfortunately.

I am with your friend, I feel naked without the HANS on track. It doesnt take much to tweak your neck and back...

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

And not to be dramatic (get a head restraint seat also!)

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

I wear NecksGen , DE TA car with a rollbar and 5 point harness. Once you do it, you will not want to be on track without

03threefiftyz

iTrader: (25)

I wear a Hans, cage, harnesses, and have a halo seat in my TT car....but we warm up with DE4. I have exactly zero interest in ever sitting in the right seat. I'll happily pay my entry fees to not ever sit in a car I don't control.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

You will be safer in a HANS with your setup. While other racers like the NexGen device, I'd rather have the FIA testing and cert of the HANS device behind my neck. I'm a walking, talking example of what can happen if you are forced to rely on a three point harness in a big shunt. Still, if I weren't wearing a SA2010 full face helmet during the accident, I might not even be walking OR talking...

thekinn

iTrader: (18)

.. in case you need more convincing, I'll be another vote for - HANS is not overkill for DE. I'd call it a requirement with harnesses... and a requirement for anyone who has a track habit.

JBJ

Are there any issues wearing a HANS with the OEM seat belt? I've been thinking about this recently as I have my first track day of the year coming up. I swear I heard that you shouldn't wear the HANS with normal seat belts.

Seems like this thread was a good place to ask. I apologize if I'm highjacking your thread N80.

N80

As far as I know there is only one option for 3 point OEM belts and it is the R3 from Simpson. I considered it and probably should do it, but it is about $1100 and also requires a pad in the seat because there is a plastic hump that goes down your back.

N80

A containment seat is on my wish list. For now I have a basic (but FIA approved) Sparco seat. I doubt I'll ever have a cage.

As far as instructing, I guess it is just a matter of temperament. I'm no cowboy, and in fact, I'm probably not as fast as I could be as I'm fairly conservative in my own on track...at least compared to some people. I tend to make my speed gains in small increments over time.

I was not sure how I was going to feel about instructing and I've only been doing it about a year and a half. However, it seems to come natural to me and I'm probably a better instructor than I am a driver...if that is possible. So far I have felt very comfortable in the right hand seat. Maybe a false sense of security. I don't know. All of my students so far have been what I'd call good students. None of them has been reckless or hard to control. A few of them have been quite talented. There have been a few spins and minor issues but none in which I ever really got that pucker factor.

At first a big part of my motivation to instruct was cost savings. Now I enjoy it and I'm getting very encouraging feedback from my students. One of them owns a shop primarily for Z cars and the last time I saw him he was in a 700 hp 370 with twin turbos.

I instructed him in that same car for his first track day, but then it was unmodified. So far I have not instructed anyone in a real high HP car (400+).

So far no student has scared me. Maybe when that happens (it will happen) I will reassess.

I'm conflicted about that portion of my safety strategy though. Going to have to work that out.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

To answer this more directly, you cannot wear a HANS device with a three point seatbelt. It requires two properly installed shoulder harnesses to hold the HANS in place and would be a safety liability to use otherwise.

N80

I think the R3 is a head and neck support device but it is not a "HANS" brand device. It is designed to be worn with three point OEM seat belts or regular racing harnesses.

It would be the device of choice for instructors. The cost, comfort and additional parts (padding for seat backs because of the hump) are what makes me lean away from such a device. That padding/hump would also push me forward in my seat which I cannot afford because of my height.

JBJ

Thanks guys. Thats' what I thought. I am heading to the track this week to test for WRL (friends BMW) and am taking the Z as well. I'll keep the HANS off in the Z.

I appreciate it.

Blurvision

iTrader: (4)

Yes, why would you NOT want to be safe? I tell my students, "its your neck"

Seems like the majority of drivers use HANS or similar with the clubs i run with once you go above intermediate.

N80

Well, not to get all philosophical but that is the million dollar question.

And the truth of the matter is that none of us is doing this for a living. So we're putting ourselves at risk for fun. If you really want to be safe, you'd start by staying off of a race track.

And it seems that it is very easy to answer the question, "How much should I do to be safe?" with "you should do everything"......but we rarely say "stay off race tracks because race tracks are inherently dangerous.

The other problem with the "do everything" answer is that most of us (who do not race WTW) do not do everything. Even those who have a full cage, HAHNS, fire suits, fire suppression, etc 1) haven't done "everything" since we aren't in ground-up designed race cars and 2) are in the vast minority of this sport.

And there is another problem: There are no purely objective, controlled and repeatable tests with data that stratifies risk based on this or that variable. It is pretty clear that a helmet is better than no helmet in a huge variety of crashes and circumstances. It is far less clear about things like HANS that come into play under a narrower set of circumstances. This makes it hard to say to someone, for instance, that you are 2.5 times more likely to die on a rice track without a HANS. In other words, no one can spell out what the risk percentages actually are. So we just say do everything.

The problem is, that if a roll bar (or cage), six point harness, HANS and fire suit were required for DE, this sport would not really exist at the level it does today and most of us never would have put or Zs on track. And even a talentless noob can easily get a Z up to 130mp on the back stretch at VIR or the front stretch at Roebling Road. BTDT.

So I think we have to be careful about projecting on own level of risk aversion or comfort onto someone else when for the most part we can only back it up with anecdotes and a certain level of common sense. The rules allow OEM cars + helmet.

After the death at RA of a DE2 student I began to get less comfortable with only OEM + helmet since I'm doing this more often, getting faster and out there with faster cars (I was doing about 130 at VIR mid back stretch when that Ferrari Challenge 458 (he had tire warmers!) past me like I was standing still.) But at the same time I'm not sure I'm going to call someone reckless for not putting a cage in their Z or Mustang or whatever. I certainly wouldn't criticize someone who did though.

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

This statement is totally inaccurate, if youve been paying attention to racing in the last 30 years. But since you made the supposition, I invite you to prove me wrong.

The reason people say "do everything" or take an "all or nothing approach" is because once you remove the belts and start running a carge/bar/harness etc, your safety systems are all designed to work together. If you take away one single element, the system becomes much more unpredictable as a whole. And in many ways is more dangerous than just running OEM safety.

Once you cross the line, which you have, be prepared to go all the way. Or just get a CG Lock and run your stock setup. Or just run your harnesses with no head restraint, and let it ride...as you say, you cant predict the weather right.

N80

You misunderstood me. A HANS protects you against a small specific set of injuries that occur in a small specific set of circumstances. I'm not debating its effectiveness to do what it is designed to do, I'm simply saying that no one can say what the real risk of being in that type of accident will be. The data has not been collected and it would be impossible to do so.

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. It IS extremely important for people who are learning all this to understand, but that was not my point. In other words, the typical response goes something like: "You are crazy for going out there without a fire suit on, or a kill switch, or an automatic fire suppression system, or whatever. Yes, those are parts of a full safety strategy but having a fire suit on has no bearing in regard to impact injuries. So whether I'm in blue jeans or an Alpine Stars suit is irrelevant to the incidence of basilar skull fractures.

I disagree. Sort of. For now. Maybe I'll change my mind at some point. Hopefully not when it is too late. But to me, all the way is a cage, plus all the things I mentioned above, the lightest Stilo helmet ever made, etc etc. And if my level of risk aversion is THAT high, then I can't afford to do this. Who could.

Again, that's the sort of thing I don't see as helpful. It goes back to "you're crazy if....." There are so many other safety strategies which most of us, even the folks who say they are doing everything, simply aren't doing and can't afford to and to which the person who is could claim "you're crazy...." I suspect not many of us outside of WTW are running fuel cells or automatic fire suppression systems. Are we crazy for not doing that?

Anyway, sorry about the philosophical tangent. Did not intend to start an argument. And I'm probably going to get a HANS device to go with my race seat, custom roll bar and six point harness before my next track weekend based of you guy's advice. But that is probably where I'll stop.

I'll also say this, my wife has been very tolerant with this hobby. And she's been tolerant of me playing the 'safety' card. But prior to my next track weekend I will have spent $1500 on safety stuff and another $1000 on tires all the while making my daily driver unsuitable for daily use. At some point she will be entitled to call my bluff the next time I play the safety card and tell me to stay off the track if I want to be safe.

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

Nobody called you crazy for not wearing a race suit...lol. Were talking HANS here, not something esoteric like kill switch location. Totally different realm of discussion.

You may be a bit crazy however, for overthinking the answer to a pretty simple question with a self evident answer. One that if you have to ask, there is only one answer.

And that answer is...how safe can your wallet make you.

guitman32

iTrader: (15)

On a side note, if you run the harnesses with no head restraint (guilty, I did for years and alas I am still alive to your point), leaving the airbags in may be better than nothing.