why is the Z so much to mod???
11-20-2003, 02:13 PM
#21
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by azrael
I won't argue about the heritage of the motor.. it's certainly a good design, and with some modifications, it will make a great race motor... but you and I both know that what sits in the Z's engine bay and what sits in their race car are two totally different engines. With sleeves, new rods, and new pistons, I'm sure the VQ can take all kinds of boost and make tons of power. But that's no surprise.
One thing I'd like to see is an aftermarket option for a forged crank, aside from the insanely expensive stroker kit.
I won't argue about the heritage of the motor.. it's certainly a good design, and with some modifications, it will make a great race motor... but you and I both know that what sits in the Z's engine bay and what sits in their race car are two totally different engines. With sleeves, new rods, and new pistons, I'm sure the VQ can take all kinds of boost and make tons of power. But that's no surprise.
One thing I'd like to see is an aftermarket option for a forged crank, aside from the insanely expensive stroker kit.
Furthermore, the only difference between the VQ30DE (95-01 Maxima motor) and the VQ30DET is lower compression pistons, different heads, cams and head gasket.
The VQs bottom end is very strong for an factory N/A motor...
11-20-2003, 02:18 PM
#22
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by del105
Because the Z is built for performance car tourists not real motorsport enthusiasts like the Evo.
Because the Z is built for performance car tourists not real motorsport enthusiasts like the Evo.
11-20-2003, 03:13 PM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: austin
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
You need to do some more research...the VQ DOES have a forged crank.
Furthermore, the only difference between the VQ30DE (95-01 Maxima motor) and the VQ30DET is lower compression pistons, different heads, cams and head gasket.
The VQs bottom end is very strong for an factory N/A motor...
You need to do some more research...the VQ DOES have a forged crank.
Furthermore, the only difference between the VQ30DE (95-01 Maxima motor) and the VQ30DET is lower compression pistons, different heads, cams and head gasket.
The VQs bottom end is very strong for an factory N/A motor...
I realize the VQ is strong.. apparently Top Secret was blowing rods at 650 crank HP.. which is great for an NA motor.. but we don't have the lower compression pistons of the VQ30DET, which I believe is our #1 shortcoming when it comes to handling boost.
After that, higher power levels will need stronger rods and probably sleeves.. but who knows. We shall see.
11-20-2003, 04:33 PM
#24
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by azrael
I didn't know the VQ had a forged crank.. but I was still referring to the possibility of an aftermarket part with even higher strength, if problems ever crop up with the stock unit not handling high power output. Hopefully with the engine's racing heritage, the stock crank is exceptionally strong.
I realize the VQ is strong.. apparently Top Secret was blowing rods at 650 crank HP.. which is great for an NA motor.. but we don't have the lower compression pistons of the VQ30DET, which I believe is our #1 shortcoming when it comes to handling boost.
After that, higher power levels will need stronger rods and probably sleeves.. but who knows. We shall see.
I didn't know the VQ had a forged crank.. but I was still referring to the possibility of an aftermarket part with even higher strength, if problems ever crop up with the stock unit not handling high power output. Hopefully with the engine's racing heritage, the stock crank is exceptionally strong.
I realize the VQ is strong.. apparently Top Secret was blowing rods at 650 crank HP.. which is great for an NA motor.. but we don't have the lower compression pistons of the VQ30DET, which I believe is our #1 shortcoming when it comes to handling boost.
After that, higher power levels will need stronger rods and probably sleeves.. but who knows. We shall see.
11-20-2003, 05:34 PM
#25
New Member
Well, it is definitely frustrating, and the main reason my mod list is so short. I really don't see the power or performance that I want for the money. Waiting and hoping for something better is really frustrating, especially when you see other cars that are so much easier and cheaper to mod performancewise.
What is real interesting is how much the SCs are. They are really higher than the ones for other cars, and don't even match the performance increase in other cars. Heck, the turbos are within range to the SCs. Close to 5 grand is just waaaaaaay too much for an SC. Since the Vortech and the ATI will be in this range, I will buy neither cause of the horrible price.
What is real interesting is how much the SCs are. They are really higher than the ones for other cars, and don't even match the performance increase in other cars. Heck, the turbos are within range to the SCs. Close to 5 grand is just waaaaaaay too much for an SC. Since the Vortech and the ATI will be in this range, I will buy neither cause of the horrible price.
11-20-2003, 05:54 PM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by del105
Because the Z is built for performance car tourists not real motorsport enthusiasts like the Evo.
Because the Z is built for performance car tourists not real motorsport enthusiasts like the Evo.
The EVO is fast on the start, but can't hang with the Z at the track.
11-20-2003, 06:00 PM
#27
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by little_rod
Well, it is definitely frustrating, and the main reason my mod list is so short. I really don't see the power or performance that I want for the money. Waiting and hoping for something better is really frustrating, especially when you see other cars that are so much easier and cheaper to mod performancewise.
What is real interesting is how much the SCs are. They are really higher than the ones for other cars, and don't even match the performance increase in other cars. Heck, the turbos are within range to the SCs. Close to 5 grand is just waaaaaaay too much for an SC. Since the Vortech and the ATI will be in this range, I will buy neither cause of the horrible price.
Well, it is definitely frustrating, and the main reason my mod list is so short. I really don't see the power or performance that I want for the money. Waiting and hoping for something better is really frustrating, especially when you see other cars that are so much easier and cheaper to mod performancewise.
What is real interesting is how much the SCs are. They are really higher than the ones for other cars, and don't even match the performance increase in other cars. Heck, the turbos are within range to the SCs. Close to 5 grand is just waaaaaaay too much for an SC. Since the Vortech and the ATI will be in this range, I will buy neither cause of the horrible price.
Poeple take their vettes to Lingenfelter and pay over 8 grand for a Supercharger kit that puts out 100 more crank HP over stock. So you were saying something about 5 grand being expensive for a supercharger kit with an intercooler for a car that has VERY little room in the engine bay to accept FI thus making R&D very expensive?
11-20-2003, 06:01 PM
#28
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by 350Z-RED
i would say it is the other way around, the Z is pure performance, and a perfect car for AUTOX. The EVO are for the ricers
The EVO is fast on the start, but can't hang with the Z at the track.
i would say it is the other way around, the Z is pure performance, and a perfect car for AUTOX. The EVO are for the ricers
The EVO is fast on the start, but can't hang with the Z at the track.
11-20-2003, 06:32 PM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago Burbs
Posts: 1,751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yea, we had this problem with MKII mr2;s up until about 4 years ago.
there was a very limited market for parts, with the exception of shitty TRD and greddy. but since 2000 there have been a lot of companies and guys coming out with parts for it.
yes, the evo is ugly, and the sti is as well. both have really cheap interiors, 4 doors and huge wings (even though it is an option)
i was debating about those cars, but i dont want 4 doors, and i am not paying $30000+ for an econobox with a nicer engine.
so that brings me back to my original idea fo getting a Z
there was a very limited market for parts, with the exception of shitty TRD and greddy. but since 2000 there have been a lot of companies and guys coming out with parts for it.
yes, the evo is ugly, and the sti is as well. both have really cheap interiors, 4 doors and huge wings (even though it is an option)
i was debating about those cars, but i dont want 4 doors, and i am not paying $30000+ for an econobox with a nicer engine.
so that brings me back to my original idea fo getting a Z
11-20-2003, 07:03 PM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
The EVO is very good handling car...maybe better than the Z in stock form...do your research before making comments.
The EVO is very good handling car...maybe better than the Z in stock form...do your research before making comments.
Damn, chazzg, you have a lot of mods on that Z that you can see.
11-20-2003, 08:50 PM
#31
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by Mr. Potato Head
Nothing like real life research. The Z KILLS the EVO around corners. They are very close in a straight line. My best friend has an EVO 8 and we play all the time. In fact, chazzg saw us tonight on the GB Tollway. Damn, chazzg, you have a lot of mods on that Z that you can see.
Nothing like real life research. The Z KILLS the EVO around corners. They are very close in a straight line. My best friend has an EVO 8 and we play all the time. In fact, chazzg saw us tonight on the GB Tollway.
Damn, chazzg, you have a lot of mods on that Z that you can see.
The EVO posted a better time aroudn the Nurburing than the Z with the same driver...that should tell you something.
11-20-2003, 09:58 PM
#32
New Member
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
You get what you pay for...that's all I have to say.
Poeple take their vettes to Lingenfelter and pay over 8 grand for a Supercharger kit that puts out 100 more crank HP over stock. So you were saying something about 5 grand being expensive for a supercharger kit with an intercooler for a car that has VERY little room in the engine bay to accept FI thus making R&D very expensive?
You get what you pay for...that's all I have to say.
Poeple take their vettes to Lingenfelter and pay over 8 grand for a Supercharger kit that puts out 100 more crank HP over stock. So you were saying something about 5 grand being expensive for a supercharger kit with an intercooler for a car that has VERY little room in the engine bay to accept FI thus making R&D very expensive?
Needless to say, so far, I am real dissappointed with the aftermarket for the Z. Maybe you have an association to it that I am not aware of. I hope it does get better, and I think it will in time.
11-21-2003, 04:22 AM
#33
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by little_rod
Dude, comparing Lingenfelter is not what I meant. Sure people go to Lingenfelter, Dinan, Hennessey, and such, and pay the money for those kits on those high dollar cars. But I am talking about Vortech, who makes kits for other cars, among other companies (ATI, and such) being higher for the Z. You can say people go and spend 8 grand at Lingenfelter, but people also go elsewhere and spend waaaaay less than 5 grand.
Needless to say, so far, I am real dissappointed with the aftermarket for the Z. Maybe you have an association to it that I am not aware of. I hope it does get better, and I think it will in time.
Dude, comparing Lingenfelter is not what I meant. Sure people go to Lingenfelter, Dinan, Hennessey, and such, and pay the money for those kits on those high dollar cars. But I am talking about Vortech, who makes kits for other cars, among other companies (ATI, and such) being higher for the Z. You can say people go and spend 8 grand at Lingenfelter, but people also go elsewhere and spend waaaaay less than 5 grand.
Needless to say, so far, I am real dissappointed with the aftermarket for the Z. Maybe you have an association to it that I am not aware of. I hope it does get better, and I think it will in time.
The fact is...the car is only a little over a year old. There is only RIGHT NOW two FI options that you can order and get shipped to your doorstep. Thus there is not much competition. Soon there will be many more FI options. Average cost of parts will drop dramatically.
You are disappointed with the aftermarket for the Z???? What did you own before...a Mustang 5.0 or something? Try owning a Maxima and having your ONLY choice for non-custom boost be the Stillen Supercharger.....also costing near 5 grand WITHOUT an intercooler. Or how about the E46 M3....parts for that thing are nearly twice as much as the Z.
I'm not a vendor and I have absolutely NO connection to the 350Z aftermarket. So far I'm very impressed with the EXTENSIVE amount of parts available for the Z in such a short period of time compared to my last car.
BTW - Since when is a Corvette a "high dollar car"??
Last edited by BriGuyMax; 11-21-2003 at 04:26 AM.
11-21-2003, 08:07 AM
#34
New Member
Well, there is a large difference between 30 and 50 grand to me, that is the difference between the Z and Vette. In turn, the Vette, M3, and Viper are considered more high dollar cars than the Z, IMO. Just common sense there.
Of course I don't want a low quality kit, that would be dumb. Since you are talking M3s and Vettes, maybe that is not much money to you for an SC for the Z. I mean, you mention that the M3s parts are twice as much, but so is the car, lol.
Hopefully you are right, and the average costs of these parts will drop as time passes, as I pointed out earlier. We are really saying the same thing here, except you are more happy with the present, and I am more willing to look into the future of lower prices that you speak of. Right now, an SC is just too high, and that is just my opinion, especially with TT kits coming out not too much more than them.
Of course I don't want a low quality kit, that would be dumb. Since you are talking M3s and Vettes, maybe that is not much money to you for an SC for the Z. I mean, you mention that the M3s parts are twice as much, but so is the car, lol.
Hopefully you are right, and the average costs of these parts will drop as time passes, as I pointed out earlier. We are really saying the same thing here, except you are more happy with the present, and I am more willing to look into the future of lower prices that you speak of. Right now, an SC is just too high, and that is just my opinion, especially with TT kits coming out not too much more than them.
Last edited by little_rod; 11-21-2003 at 08:10 AM.
11-21-2003, 09:10 AM
#35
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by little_rod
Well, there is a large difference between 30 and 50 grand to me, that is the difference between the Z and Vette. In turn, the Vette, M3, and Viper are considered more high dollar cars than the Z, IMO. Just common sense there.
Of course I don't want a low quality kit, that would be dumb. Since you are talking M3s and Vettes, maybe that is not much money to you for an SC for the Z. I mean, you mention that the M3s parts are twice as much, but so is the car, lol.
Hopefully you are right, and the average costs of these parts will drop as time passes, as I pointed out earlier. We are really saying the same thing here, except you are more happy with the present, and I am more willing to look into the future of lower prices that you speak of. Right now, an SC is just too high, and that is just my opinion, especially with TT kits coming out not too much more than them.
Well, there is a large difference between 30 and 50 grand to me, that is the difference between the Z and Vette. In turn, the Vette, M3, and Viper are considered more high dollar cars than the Z, IMO. Just common sense there.
Of course I don't want a low quality kit, that would be dumb. Since you are talking M3s and Vettes, maybe that is not much money to you for an SC for the Z. I mean, you mention that the M3s parts are twice as much, but so is the car, lol.
Hopefully you are right, and the average costs of these parts will drop as time passes, as I pointed out earlier. We are really saying the same thing here, except you are more happy with the present, and I am more willing to look into the future of lower prices that you speak of. Right now, an SC is just too high, and that is just my opinion, especially with TT kits coming out not too much more than them.
11-21-2003, 09:12 AM
#36
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: OC
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok first off I want to say that this has been a good post be stay coo everyone...
700ft. slalom
Z = 67.3 - road and track's david and goliath article
EVO = 73.1!!! - sport compacts evo vs. sti article
with someone who knows how to drive the evo it will win on almost any road course
http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO_Econo_Stage0.html
around 285whp we'll say... thats a 50 hp gain for $950 what does that come out too about $19 per hp
-non
700ft. slalom
Z = 67.3 - road and track's david and goliath article
EVO = 73.1!!! - sport compacts evo vs. sti article
with someone who knows how to drive the evo it will win on almost any road course
http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO_Econo_Stage0.html
around 285whp we'll say... thats a 50 hp gain for $950 what does that come out too about $19 per hp
-non
11-21-2003, 09:35 AM
#37
New Member
Yeah, BriGuyMax, a turbo is really the only way to make the most power for your dollar in this car from what I have seen right now, IMO.
non, I agree with you, of course, this car costs way too much to mod. But comparing it to a stock turbo is a bit unfair, cause they can just turn up the boost. Wish we had stages, lol, maybe in the future, but of course it would be different for us with N/A.
non, I agree with you, of course, this car costs way too much to mod. But comparing it to a stock turbo is a bit unfair, cause they can just turn up the boost. Wish we had stages, lol, maybe in the future, but of course it would be different for us with N/A.
11-21-2003, 09:48 AM
#38
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: OC
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by little_rod
Yeah, BriGuyMax, a turbo is really the only way to make the most power for your dollar in this car from what I have seen right now, IMO.
non, I agree with you, of course, this car costs way too much to mod. But comparing it to a stock turbo is a bit unfair, cause they can just turn up the boost. Wish we had stages, lol, maybe in the future, but of course it would be different for us with N/A.
Yeah, BriGuyMax, a turbo is really the only way to make the most power for your dollar in this car from what I have seen right now, IMO.
non, I agree with you, of course, this car costs way too much to mod. But comparing it to a stock turbo is a bit unfair, cause they can just turn up the boost. Wish we had stages, lol, maybe in the future, but of course it would be different for us with N/A.
-non
11-21-2003, 10:52 AM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 3,407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by azrael
it's all in the engine design. the VQ35DE is a general purpose N/A V6 engine that was tuned to make more power in the 350Z application. It wasn't designed for boost.
Making power on the cheap happens either in factory-boosted engines (like the EVO), or in large-displacement motors that aren't highly-tuned from the factory (like the LS1 and Mustang's modular 4.6). They can make power because Chevy and Ford, respectively, didn't tune for maximum power from the factory, and there is more power to be had by freeing up airflow restrictions.
In our case, the engine is fairly efficient for it's displacement, so getting power from the NA route is limited.
it's all in the engine design. the VQ35DE is a general purpose N/A V6 engine that was tuned to make more power in the 350Z application. It wasn't designed for boost.
Making power on the cheap happens either in factory-boosted engines (like the EVO), or in large-displacement motors that aren't highly-tuned from the factory (like the LS1 and Mustang's modular 4.6). They can make power because Chevy and Ford, respectively, didn't tune for maximum power from the factory, and there is more power to be had by freeing up airflow restrictions.
In our case, the engine is fairly efficient for it's displacement, so getting power from the NA route is limited.
The reason why crap is so expensive is the car is brand new. When the LS1 first came out in 98, parts were scarce and expensive; now coming into 2002 parts are readily available and becoming cheaper. For example longtube headers back in 98 were 1000 bucks, now they can be had for 400 bucks...It will take a few years but be patient. Right now everyone who mods there vehicles are like "test mules". They are the R&D.
