amolaver

iTrader: (1)

Having never converted a NA to FI car, I'm confused by a lot of terms and products being discussed for engine mgmt in this application.

In the stock car, the 'computer' controls the following things:


Engine
Ignition timing
Fuel pressure(? - no return line, so does it manipulate pressure to compensate?)
throttle-by-wire sensor
???
Cruise(?)

Other
EVAP(?)
AirCon/climate control
TCS/VDC
gauges(?)
???

Point being...When talking about engine management, what components are we talking about either augmenting or replacing? The e-manage, Unichip, and ? all 'fool' the stock computer into doing things differently by providing bogus sensor values, right? So somewhere in the wiring harness, these products are inserted through some form of pigtail (right?). In comparison, something like the TEC3 basically disconnects the stock engine control portion of the ECU, and takes that over, leaving the ecu to deal with AC/etc.

So - I think what I'm asking is if someone could provide a little chart. Ie, feature being controlled (ignition, say), then which ecu products take that feature over, or fool the stock computer into handling differently (noting which of those scenarios is true for that product).

What I'm trying to get at, is it seems engine management is where all the FI kits either cheap out, or don't have enough adjustability. Coming from the WRX world, the Unichip was basically dropped from most people's shopping lists as soon as a do-it-yourself option became available (UTEC). The need to visit a tuner to make any changes (or ship the ECU back for a generic, your mods==xx tune) is just too much of a PITA. So..... What is the absolute best way (cost no object) engine management solution, and then stepping down from that, what options are available (and what are you losing), etc.

I'd imagine something like a Motec, in conjunction with the stock ECU to handle all the creature comforts, would be ideal. Just really, really expensive But, in such a situation, would the cruise work?

Stepping down sounds like HKS FCON - but what are you losing / gaining. Or is this not the next step down?

In my little world, over next winter, I'll be doing a FI build with forged pistons, etc in a junkyard block. The hope for the end results is a daily-driveable car with ~500-550whp on pump gas. If I could flip a switch and run some toluene mix or race gas and get 600whp, all the better. Since new FI kits are still becoming available, and real-world results from current offerings is only really starting to show up now, I don't know what option will ultimately be for me. But from the discussions I'm seeing here, engine mgmt is really the big stumbling block. Agree/disagree?

ahm

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

I know I'm a n00b and all, but no one? Will someone please shed some light on the engine management situation? Pretty please?

ahm

002-M-P

iTrader: (12)

I'm gonna leave it to someone else to explain all your questions about the different EMS systems, but be patient cause there is alot of good help in the F/I section of this forum, but it isn't exactly very high trafic, you shoul dget any info you need though.

All I know is that the way to go about engine management in our cars is different than most cars. I have read on the AEM forum that the AEM EMS they are making for the 350Z is going to work in conjuction with the factory ecu (all other AEM EMS systems are completely stand alone). It seems like it is going to be a long road for our engine management systems.

phunk

iTrader: (21)

ill have more to say later when i have more time... but the FCON is NOT A STEP DOWN. the FCON is a super powerful system and I would select it over the AEM ANY DAY!!! I personally do not like the AEM system tho... some people love it. I like the FCON. I took the AEM out of my Civic... hated it. I am also a AEM certified tuner... and guess what... i pay someone else to tune my customers cars with AEM. That system is a headache unless you are a AEM freak that plays with it non stop its such a waste of time IMHO

<--- prefers to avoid the AEM EMS like the plague.

other people love it. its not bad, just not for everyone.]

point: FCON is not a step down, IMHO its 3 steps up.

ZRAYGO

I have the FCON in my z along with a fully built motor and Greddy TT. The problem is not the FCON, but finding someone to tune it. You cant just go to anyone, you have to go to a CERTIFIED HKS PRO TUNER. I live in Riverside, California and there are only 3 PRO TUNERS here in Souther Cali (XS-Engineering, SP-Engineering and Brainstorm Engineering). These all range in tuning pricing from $150 per hour to $350 per hour. That cost is not including what they have to modify on your car to get to the horse-power that you want. For instance, I have 550cc injectors on my car. I want to get between 500-600hp. I have had all three places tell me that if I want to get to a safe and reliable hp (500-600), I need a return fuel system and I also need to replace my injectors with 750cc's. Those parts alone are gonna cost me at least $2500. Phunk I would be interested to know if you haev that FCON installed on your Z and do you have all the parts that I have. Also, I kind of feel that the dealers are trying to get some more money out of me and its hard to discredet them since I have really limited knowledge of the tuning of the Z.

002-M-P

iTrader: (12)

I would really like to go with the F-Con in the future, except I want user tunability, and even if that wasn't the problem, the closest person to tune it for me is Maryland and I'm in NC. Thats a long drive for everytime you need a tune.

dynamic6er

iTrader: (1)

The new Nissans use a complex data system (CAN) that is the next evolution of in car control. Previous generations of vehicles used 12volt and 5 volt signals, relays, diodes, grounding points, and misc. other systems to comunicate on/off controls to different components in the vehicle. The CAN system actually uses individual processors and binary code to transfer information from component to processor to ecu.

Note in the picture below the Refrigerent Pressure Sensor (bottom right) has its own ECM, which then comunicates along a "Data Line" to the ECU. Also note that these "Data Lines" have multiple components connected to them.



Here is another schematic to compare from another car that does not use the CAN system. You can see that each component use its own individual wire to comunicate information. Some components share power and some share ground.



The Emanage use a couple of schemes to modify the signals to the computer.

1-Airflow signal. The ECU determines the amount of fuel it must add based on the amount of air it injests (in addition to pther readings). The Emanage will modify this signal so that more/less airflow is detected by the ECU based on the need for more or less fuel. To get more fuel the Emange sends a signal indicating more airflow, to get less fuel it indicates less airflow.

(Note: One downside to this system is that the factory ignition maps take airflow into account. Many times the factory maps will advance/retard timing at times that are inefficient or downright dangerous for the engine)

2-Injector Pulse Width-The add on injector harness allows you to modify the factory injector pulsewidth by +/- 20%. This number determines the length of time that the injector is open.

3-Ignition control-As far as I've heard teh Ingition harness is not ready yet.

HKS F-CON S is a piggy back like the Emanage, but it does allow you to control ignition. The other benefit is you can retrofit to a MAP (pressure sensor) and completely eliminate the fatory MAF. More HP and more stable tuning.

The Unichip fuctions is a very similiar fashion. I can't go into detail, just becasue I'm not completely familiar with is exact control.

The downside to all of the piggy backs is that you are ALWAYS USING THE FACTORY MAPS. You can never always tell waht the factory ECU is doing (unless your Nissan or someone that broken the code) These can make for unstable, unsafe, or difficult tuning. From an engineering standpoint it is a compromise system based on cost. At the same time it is the cost that makes them so attractive. The amount of control you gain per dollar is better them anything else on the market.

Yes by the ECU.

Normally not. Most standalones remove the ECU completely and take over the majority of its functions. This was completely possible in a normal system. The CAN system makes removal impossible.

Due to the CAN data system and its integration to the factory ECM the TEC3, MOTEC, and other similar custom standalones do not have the processing power or software to support the CAN system and will most likely require a complete rewiring of the vehicle. This is not fesable except for the most hard core of racers. The possibility exists of piggy backing the factory ECU for the CAN funtions, but would require an expert in the areas of Nissan CAN and standalone setup to install. (the expense becomes an issue once this route is taken)

The biggest issue is the Drive by wire systems. HKS is the only company that offers a PnP solution to this issue. AEM is working on it, but is having serious issues with laibility concerns and the limp mode safty functions of the drive by wire. Hydra has working PnP ECMs for Drive By Wire and we should see their ECU for the 350 early next year.

Th F-Con is not on the same level as the Motec only beacause its maps are a little smaller and it is not as feature rich, but at the same time it is almost the ubiquitous choice for Japanese tuners. Simple to set-up, drivable immediatly, reliable, efficient, and precise. You don't hack up the wiring. You don't have to plumb a bunch of crazy sensors.

A motec will need to be played with and tinkered with for hours, just to get the car to idle right sometimes.

Yes, absolutely, but then again there are cars out there that have 600-800 hp using piggy backs. The problem with this justification for piggy back success is that the sum of the parts on these high hp cars is not equal to its performance and make me question if there is more "free" power hiding in the wings. If I'm going to spend thousands (or tens or twenties) I'm gonna squeze for that last ounce, also with the intention of staying safe. Piggy backs don't give me that security. They are a compromise to perfromance and become the weakest link in the chain.

metalz

I have had conversations with lance over at toyomoto...they are the tops in engine management in south florida...they are hks fcon all the way and rave about it all the time

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

$150 an hour for tuning is highway robbery

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Couple of quick corrections/applifications in your post:

First, the eMange, as used in the 350Z TT application only makes an across the board MAF adjustment to scale the larger injectors. This MAF adjustment is used to linearly scale the stock 280cc injectors up to 440cc. Once this is done, then no other MAF manipulations occur.

2) To enrich fuel during boost, then the injector timing harness adds injector pulse width directly to the stock ECU signal. This is great, becuase we arent doing anything with the MAF signal at this point, and this will not result in unwanted timing advance.

3) The Greddy Ignition timing harness is working, although Greddy doesnt endorse it. At least a half dozen of us have been using the harness with some diodes for several thousand miles without any blown coils.

4) With the HKS FCON or the AEM EMS, when it is released...they both completely disregard the stock ECU fuel and timing maps. This means they are NOT reliant on the stock maps. This results in a pure native tune, and no chance that the stock ECU can jump in and change your tune. Phunk can comment more about this. Essentially, you are running a full stand-alone, even though the stock ECU remains to control the ABS, traction control, HVAC systems..etc.


Personally, based on what I have seen, the HKS unit is awesome, but not user tunable...so I wont buy it. I am the type that likes to tinker...so the HKS is not for me....but still a great unit.

I will wait for the AEM EMS....coming soon, and should have all of the key functionality of the HKS unit or any other standalone.

For now, the eManage is next best thing to a stand alone.

Hth,

S

ZRAYGO

Gq,

I spoke to phunk today for about 30-45min on ems q&a's and his take on the aem was that he thought it was hog wash. He says that the HKS is great. He thinks the AEM is not that great. Anyways give him and ME a call please....

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Ray, i just called you twice... no answer.

I respect Phunk's opinion. Like many things in life, people have different preferences on what to use. Personally, I have never used either system, so I cant really comment on which one is better or easier to use. I will say that the Honda crowd I hang with loves the AEM, as does the EVO folks I talk to.

Honestly, I would probably go FCON, if the darn thing was user tunable. Not being user tuner is a non-starter for me. That's just my opinion...becuase I know how I like to play with stuff and tinker.

Hth,

Sharif, the tinker'er

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

Great info here - much appreciate the responses. One immediate clarification before I fall asleep at the keyboard (its been a long week)... Both gq and phunk (I think) said the FCON was not user tunable. Is this similar to the unichip in that you have to have some unobtanium hardware and/or software to do it, or that its so complicated etc you're not comfortable tackling it (which I don't think is the case, just want to be sure I understand).

002-M-P - who's the FCON tuner in Maryland? Is someone on the board using them to tune their FI Z? I'd be interested in talking to them about it, as (luckily for me), that's probably not that far a drive.

While I'm interested in tinkering, I don't have 1/100 the experience of you guys, and would likely do something really, really bad. Since it only takes one of those little learning experiences to toast $10K plus in engine work and goodies, I'd probably be OK with parting with, over the course of the build and tune, $1K for a pro who makes a living at it, do the tuning.

From what I'm hearing, the FCON is the most powerful available option (by virtue of its independant ignition control and possible replacement of MAF with MAP), in conjunction with its peaceful co-existence with the factory computer to handle all the niceties (AC/TCS/etc). While I'd guess the eventual AEM offering to be good, they dicked around the WRX community for almost a year before they finally released their product there, and almost by virtue of that alone, uptake was minimal, and enough experience was gathered with other systems that few bothered with it. It looks like a similar situation is developing here.

So...As it stands, if the Maryland FCON tuner (whoever that is) turns out to be a reputable operation, it would seem to be the winner in my (currently) imagination build.

Once again the combined experience and thoughts of the members here come through. Thanks for all the help, and look forward to more great info!

Now if only someone who was FI was running track events 3 times a month and could tell me if I should expect a built (forged internals, lighter valvetrain, etc) running FI (probably TT, although single is possible depending on how the offerings turn out), in a relatively mild and conservative state of tune, will survive for any length of time... Say, 450-500whp.

ahm

dynamic6er

iTrader: (1)

We're a Certified PRO dealer in Maryland. We'll actually have a Z with a HKS supercharger up here in January for an F-CON PRO install and tune.

Although the HKS is not user tunable it does have the option to add a "Navigator" unit. This allows you to have multiple maps tuned and the ability to switch on the fly. For instance a street map for 93 octane and a race map for 100/110/116.

My biggest issue with the AEM is that although it is user tunable it can also be a double edged sword. Meaning is also easy to make mistakes and can cause more problems then solutions.

For something that requires minimal thought or involvment the HKS is without a doubt the best solution.

There's also a reason HKS does not want the average user to tune their own car. Not to say the average user is not capable, it just takes a significant amount of working knowledge to understand how everything works together and how "harmony" can be acheived.

Do this. Go to the AEM website and dowload their software. Open it up and take a look at all the maps and options. I promise, you'll be crossed eyed in a few minutes.

http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=8610

(may need to create an account)

There are a couple of other issues I have with AEM. First, they only have the ability to accept 12 tooth resolution from a crank trigger. Almost every OEM out there using more then 12 teeth for crank position. Bosch uses 60 teeth! We have a couple of cars with AEM's that used to shut down if driven for more then an hour. Basically the processors and/or drivers were overheating and going into self protection. That indicates two things, underengineered or inefficient coding.

and for the record, even with all my AEM disappointemts, I do own one. http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=8610

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

great post...answered many of my unanswered questions...keep it coming!!!

S12 driver

Is the HKS software really that secure that no one can crack it? It can't be anymore difficult than the factory ECU? Maybe a company can crack it and sell a HKS manager unit to tune the ECU. It shouldn't be all that hard, and I don't think HKS can really do anything about that.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Well, the HKS software does exist, because the certified tuners have it. So I think its only a matter of time before the software starts circulating.

amolvar, sounds like you want a solid setup, and dont have the desire to tinker...then the HKS is definatley for you.

JCat

iTrader: (4)

Monster Garage managed to remove a 350Z engine and install it in another car. It was an 10 - 20 year old Datsun "Honey Bee."

see: https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=99046

The played-up problem was getting the upgraded or new (10 - 20 year-old) car's electronics and engine management system to work properly. The drama was showing some poor smuk looking at blueprints and trying to decipher them. (Perhaps TV drama)

It would be interesting to know how they managed to do this. The end result was successful.

dynamic6er

iTrader: (1)

They put a standalone on the car and replaced the drive by wire throttle body with a standard throttle body. No A/C, no security, nothing but engine and drivetrain, just a race car.

dynamic6er

iTrader: (1)

They use a USB key that is serialized to the software. As I understand it this type of security scheme is very difficult to break.