350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

not sure either, I have been clear on what we would do in the past and now again...
I will be in Cali tomorrow and Saturday, I told Don and Sam I would pick up the motor. Sam told me I'm not welcome in his shop , I told Sam he can cover the shipping to me then since I will be in CA!

I will repair/re-machine, new parts, whatever is necessary, and pay the shipping of the motor back. Again, more than expected after the engine has been tampered with by a competing vendor who has illustarted to me his lack of ethics.

TODD

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

u never know... but you are right its warranty

taurran

iTrader: (18)

That's all exactly why I'd never buy a crate motor, as stated above. I'm more referring to the fact you're complaining about people bashing here even though in the other situation a 3rd party was dispatched here to the forums to bash the shop in question. Now you're complaining about someone doing the same to you?

Apologies as I'm not here to play judge jury and executioner as some seem to take it upon themselves to do. Rather, the original post described a situation that was all too hauntingly familiar with damage that looked to be near identical.

And no, I don't beleive you handled that well. There's something more thats f'd up with the other situation, and believe me it's an F'd up situation. I think Don is right for wanting to scrap whatever was shipped to him and start completely over. I personally wouldnt anything from your shop running in my car as well.

Keep in mind that this is MY OWN opinion, and I'm not acting on the part of any shop as everyone else here seems to think. Take it or leave it (most of you should and will leave it and continue with the conversation)

I'm going to work now. I'll look at this and reply to your PM later.

Twon

iTrader: (1)

omg that bill i havent read past the first page, but i really hope everything works out in your favor, its very unfortuneate for something like this to happen.

JoeDirtPharmD

iTrader: (9)

No - but then again, if they sold me a defunct product, I would just as well get my money back and buy a competitor's product. Best Buy would have no vested interest in something they didn't make in-house...

Poor analogy

I've already instructed Sam to return the motor to your shop. If you would rather pick it up in CA, then you will need to contact him. I realize this places each of you in an uncomfortable situation as I was made privy to the behind-the-scenes conversations between each of you. Nonetheless, you choose - Sam has my blessing...

I'm taking my son to Disneyland for the weekend to remove myself from the situation for a few days - once you examine the motor, contact me with your findings and a proposed resolution.

The issue I have contention with was your 'warranty' email dated 07/19 - the motor was not only machined incorrectly, it appears that it was assembled in poor fashion as well, and the costs extend well beyond just rings and bearings. If this was just one bad apple from a crop of many great ones, then so be it. However, I was made privy to comments you had stated to others about potential end user related failures that were inaccurate at best. At this point, I have little confidence that this is the case, so I am not prepared to concede in placing another BZM motor in my car.

And if you're looking for other vendors/sponsors to chime in, they probably won't as they may have very well been the same that contacted me when this debaucle started...

Once you have a chance to look at the motor, let me know. I'm sure I'll hear from Sam or you on how you choose to receive it.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Kudos on that. I'll agree that's more than fair, yes.

And no, I don't agree with you saying Sam has a lack of ethics. To me that's just the old "pot/kettle/black" mentality.

The best thing you could do for reputation now is just to help him and not sling any more mud...

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

I absolutely agree with Tech... and again someone said the only way is to read each person's arguement and decide.

well, OPs response was weak. Todd seems to have a solid arguement (the whole GTM bias thing aside, has no bearing on it)

and now, I'm not a lawyer (invoking matlock) but going on my record in these matters... I've been right in the past (VRT, C LTD... many others).

OP: take the engine back and sell it. you recoup some of your money, you now have a GTM engine that you believe in and the 'warranty' was held up and situation was handled.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

he speaks for turbonetics!! evryone knows that

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

"You've seen this before???????", you mean normal bearing wear...those bearings look great in the pictures, please elaborate on what is faulty with those pics???

There is a very light coating on all OEM bearing that can be scratched with one's fingernail. The marks on this bearing are the superficial coating removed, well within normal for a new engine.

06Track

How many "Built" motors have we seen go up in smoke?? Not directed to you Todd,
just using the expression. The costs associated with a problem motor: Costs incurred
getting the car to the shop...Costs incurred getting the engine pulled, torn down,
rebuilt and reinstalled let alone the time the customer is without his beloved Z. And
even after all that, without a stand alone dyno pull (pulls) and break-in, it is another crap shoot.
I know a Dyno would not only serve as a testement of the quality of the build, but
would assure everything checked out BEFORE the install and would let the
builder AND customer be in agreement that the engine was fine when run in
this way. Leak downs could be put on a spec sheet as well as a oil filter
checks for foreign materials from the build. I would say that the shop that offers
this would reap benefits not only to themselves, but most important to the customers.
Putting the engine IN the car and using it for the dyno is *** backwards...anything
not right, time to pull and repair is almost not an option. TOO COSTLY!!!
The dyno also can easily be used for testing new part combos to see what works
and what doesn't. Almost EVERY american engine building shop does this, and
their engines are nowhere nearly as compicated as the Z's engine.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

Infinus

Without public knowledge how do we know that this is an issue between just BZM and the OP? how do we know that others are not facing a similar situation? Like I said before if a company does indeed live up to its reputation and the issue gets resolved then nobody has anything to fear from any of this and in the end people can learn a lot from such a situation. I see your point, because there is some flaming going on, but the OP didn't flame anyone he just let us know the details.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (4)

This whole situation has spiraled completely out of control. Situations such as this should NEVER become public until an impasse in reached and one side or the other refuses to take it any further. This is the problem with internet forums, every dick, tom and harry gets to put his uninformed 2 cents in based on one side of a conflict and the lemmings all jump on the bandwagon.

While either party could be at fault here as far as the motor is concerned, Joe handled the situation completely incorrectly as far as his actions and bringing the situation public before it should have been are concerned.

Joe, if you expect Todd to cooperate with you then YOU need to cooperate with him. Todd is a VERY accommodating individual and will bend over backwards to make sure everything is right for his customers. Having GT Motorsports tear the motor down for their "analysis" was your first mistake. For one, Todd and GTM are in competition in the motor building business. Number 2, Sam wants your money, so he's obviously going to tell you what you want to hear.

I don't think you deserve a refund since you refused to cooperate with Todd to resolve this issue and then posted this garbage on a public forum before issues either reached impasse or were resolved.

In case you forgot, Todd started his engine building business to HELP the Z community, not to make a living for himself. GTM is in is business to MAKE MONEY. Think about that for just a little bit before you do anything else rash.

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

Absolutely correct, we know we are handling this the correct way, trying to salvage a series of improperly executed decisions made along the way by the other parties involved. We will stand by what we said we would do, as I had posted previously (I had sent to Don on 7/19/07).
So, as someone previously accused, we are not going through "damage control" and changing our actions because of this being brought to the attention of a public forum, but as you can see, I had made the same offer that I am clearly offering now, back on 7/19, long before this thread began (which was yesterday).
We have nothing to fear, we know we are not in the wrong (in how we will handle this), and we will stand behind what we said we would do.

Looking forward to getting this all past us and moving on.

TODD

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

Bri,

His name is Don

Don, Ship the motor back as we know it wont be picked up, have it rebuilt which is what I am sure Todd will do, then sell it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. You will get 90% of your money back and chalk it up as a learning experience for all involved!

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

Dri:
what ever... garbage?
So far the OP has stated he has cooperated with Todd, 3rd party advised him not to return the engine but OP choose to go that route still, so i dunno what you are talking about not cooperating.
Also since other shops had suggested engine trouble and Todd's response didn't recognize any possible fault on his part he choose to go to the 3rd to ensure Todd was impartial to him. After that any BS between Todd and 3rd party is between them. NO matter how you put it.

Todd is also a business owner and also a nice guy but also is in a business, weather he has another job or not makes no difference, he is also a business and a sponsor to the site. OP paid for an engine that was suppose to be in good condition and we know what he got. He has instructed 3rd party to work out details with Todd to get the engine back so he can get a refund for the engine. Todd already said he will take care of things.

Now if you have some discomfort or problems with 3rd party from being impartial to the situation in the first place then explain why as Todd did rather than make a comment that shows no facts. OPs post showed facts

The OP waited for a while to make this post. So quit trying to put blame on him. He did not go public here or jumped the gun as you might think(specially since you dont know). He had a previous thread where he tryed to sort details in a different matter, and then waited almost a month till he posted this info.

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

we are beating a dead horse... quicksilver, do you live with Don? You act as though you know every chronological event leading up to today, but you are not reporting the details accurately.

I was doubtful that when Sam told Don that the engine had a valve machining error and a out of round cylinder error before he had any conclusive evidence. He was explaining causes of failure that could not be determined by the tests he had performed, and then he told me a completely different story, badmouthing Don's work, the situation with the tune, and that he had and would remain neutral and I'd be advised of any findings.
I was never advised by Sam. I had called him, emailed him, no response, finally I texted him about how I ws disappointed with his two-faced ethics, no response....I finally got a response from him last night: saying my text messages were inappropriate, I should have just called him (I did several times) and that I am no longer welcome in his shop and to sever all ties with him...wow! Very well then, the true colors came out.

I was clear with Don that when it came down to the diagnostic process of having to open the motor, that he could ship it to me, i would cover all expenses, rebuild, etc (all in previous posts here, you can go back and read)...

I was not being difficult to work with, I have been very easy going this entire time. I had not heard anything from anyone for several weeks, then I receive one pm from Don ( a forwarded message from Sam) and I respond telling him we need to see the motor..then I discover this morning that this is now a public thread.

Again, as CLEARLY stated to the OP and on this thread publicly, we will take care of it, even though the engine has been opened, absolving us of all liability. I will still take care of it!

What's next? Who has something to say...

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

He didn't send the motor back to be examined, which was recommended by Todd. This is GTM's own policy for warranty (has to be sent back to them). I wouldn't call that full cooperation.

That said, I can understand reluctance to send it back if the OP felt the blame would be assigned to him based on prior communication with Todd. This is perhaps where BZM should try to understand that the OP "felt" he might not be taken care of and they can perhaps temper their responses until the motor is back, examined, documented and shared with the customer. Something to learn here for all parties involved, other shops, and customers....

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (4)

How has he cooperated with Todd?? Todd asked him to send the motor in ASSEMBLED. He did not.

Todd clearly stated in his PM WELL before this thread that IF there was error on his side when he pulled the motor apart, then he would take care of it.

Based on his track record here, I'd say Todd can be trusted. Name ONE other person here that has had an issue with Todd that went unresolved.

Bringing the 3rd party into this was a mistake. Only when you can't proceed any further with the original builder should you bring in a 3rd party. And the 3rd party was HARDLY impartial.

Oh we do??? In fact we don't. Sam can blow whatever kind of sunshine he wants up Joe's (Don's) ***. It just makes him more money in the end.

Common sense should answer this question for you.

The basic FACT is that he went against Todd's advice and now wants a FULL refund which is NOT the policy of BuiltZMotors for situations such as this. End of story.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (4)

I know...but i thought it would be easier to address him by his forum handle or portion thereof.

That sounds like a much more rational plan for this situation. His currently confrontational plan isn't going to get him very far.