booger

iTrader: (6)

Quicksilver
May I ask what intrest you have in this matter ? To me it seems you have zero...noda...nothing to do with it . So why are you not paying attention to what the 3 parties involved are posting ? And you continuely try to egg the situation on . Im sure the OP is a big boy and can post for him self . He doesnt need you posting time and time again like a kid in high school . Give us a break so we can read about the situation and not have to weed thru your useless posts .

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

My bad I apologize..

Todd I think that is great. I believe this thread is done with that comment... Why beat a dead horse now..

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

message was directed to bri. and i posted just what you are sayign, about taking care of the Don "."
don't question me, question the 3rd party of whatever issues of trust you have with them and their findings. Hope no more issues come up for you to make arraingments to pick up the engine.
Regardless of everythign here i am not questioning you anymore as far as you have said since RE: you will take care of things. ITs a good move.
3rd party has a reputation here for good work regarless of his attitude...so that makes no difference. Even though i agree there.

booger

iTrader: (6)

Why does the OP need taken care of by you ?

and didnt Peter from APS have an attitude round here ?
he made lots of friends thinking his $hit didnt stink...didnt he ?

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

wtf are you talking about

btw Don if a good friend .

booger

iTrader: (6)

I guess you havent been around long enough

and you being a good friend of the OP....has what to do with this thread ?

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

ygpmed no need to go OT here

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

Since everyone’s got an opinion on this, I’ll go ahead and toss in my . But before anyone takes the following out of context – this is JUST MY OPINION. I in no way am affiliated with any of the people involved. So if there’s anyone who has a deep issue with any of my comments, please don’t take it personally. I like 99% of the guys on this board am an enthusiast and like to share my thoughts with the community. That’s it. Now…

1. Todd@BZM should have responded sooner with the level of service and attention that he’s now offering. Although I think that he’s doing a fair job at making things right now, a deeper sense of concern conveyed earlier on may have avoided this entire mess.

2. Sam@GTM should have NEVER opened up the block. Even though Don asked for a complete diagnosis as to the problem, it puts Sam in a difficult position now in that Don is using this information in hopes to receive monetary compensation for his troubles. Again, just my opinion, but in the face of a potential customer with shop “baggage,” it’s best to ensure you don’t get in the middle of a pissing fight…

3. Don should have followed the golden rules – do it all at one shop, or do it all yourself. Many individuals bounce around shops in hopes of finding the one that’ll take care of them in ways that they agree with. Problem with this is that you generally end up spending more money and are almost guaranteed to hear, “oh man did the last place really f’k this up…”

As for the built motor in question – this is just my opinion but…

1. That’s a loose motor if I’ve ever seen or heard of one.

2. The reason I say this is because MY piston/wall clearances are .0035 (CP pistons though). .006 to .007 is nuts - even if the Arias pistons did call for .005… I’d bet the piston slap off of that thing was nasty loud.

3. Bearing clearances should NEVER be more that .002 on our motors. And even that’s excessive. Again for reference, I run .0015 to .0017…

4. As for the debris, it’s understandable to see **** in the oil pan of a freshly build motor, but I’d venture to say that the amount and size of debris that came out of Don’s motor was a little alarming, but I wouldn’t call it way over the top by any means.

5. And I DO think that the block was decked too low…

NOW, with that said – I don’t think that Todd puts out BS motors. I have heard that his motors are a little on the loose side, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t hold up and make good power. Every builder does it their own way, mostly based on past experience with other motors. When it comes to clearances and TQ specs, these are the “secrets” that builders keep to themselves much like tuners. And it’s expected that while one builder may like a looser engine, another may like a tighter one. Again, it’s more about past experience. Unfortunately, our engines are still somewhat green and although we’ve seen very impressive things this year, we’re still behind a huge curve. What works for Chevy’s, Honda’s, and Toyota’s, probably isn’t going to directly apply with these cars. So expect to see more new things over the next 5 or 6 years. Maybe by then, VQ’s will have perfect recipes for hitting 1000whp reliably, but for now it’s still a best guess approach with everyone’s opinion in the mix…



With that, I’ll gracefully back out of this debate and wish all parties involved a swift and peaceful resolve. Good luck.

JoeDirtPharmD

iTrader: (9)

Egads – you step away for a Med Exec meeting, only to come back to more crap.

Listen, rcdash hit it on the head. Todd’s emails did not instill any faith that he would examine the motor in a non-biased manner. I haven’t shared the number of comments expressed to me about him, but as he maintains that GTM made assumptions pre-inspection, he did as well.

‘Garbage’ was a ***** statement. I shared my experience, not yours, or what ‘should have been’. GTM was convenient, assuring and proven. What I purchased was a block that was to be capable of 550rwhp and problem-free. What I received was a subpar product with pistons hitting the heads and chunks of crap in the oil pan. So, yes Bri, we’re all privy to what I got because I posted the pictures.

As to whether GTM is bias: I would have received the same contentions (from likely the same members) if I had taken it to Jose’s Motor shop in El Mirage. “Oh, you should’ve taken it to someone proven, etc., etc.. Interested to know what qualifies at a non-biased 3rd party investigator?

The point wasn’t to dog on Todd – but I was unsatisfied with his responses leading up to the matter and I’ve been sitting here for 9 weeks with a bum motor. A motor that was inherently faulty.

The thread, not intended to be a court of public opinion, was intended to share my experience. I have found that within the past 6 mos. there have been others that echo my experience, and it sucks I get to stick my neck out there and say, “Here’s what I got.” No doubt Todd is a reputable guy, ‘tis why I bought the motor in the first place.

However, having been made aware of ALL of the communication taken place between all parties, I did not have faith that my matter would be handled appropriately or in my favor despite no fault of my own. Thus, the car is GTM and will remain there until complete. Now, is Sam blowing smoke up my ***? Hardly. It’s just business… I view the matter as no different than an appliance, a tool, or anything that doesn't work as promised. Now - for those that side on the argument that the modding biz is purely without recourse, we could pick apart the Hennesey Viper debaucle

Now – I did not go against Todd’s advice. He clearly stated that if GTM did the work, he would comp for rings/bearings. Issue is, this is beyond a simple machining oopsy. I charged both Todd and GTM with the responsibility to communicate with eachother. I am satisfied this has been done accordingly. Having reviewed the texts/PMs that Todd sent to Sam immediately after receiving my summary of findings, it would appear that Todd was attempting to conceal something. In any case, I guess I was not to be privy to the results until they had worked something out… Sam chose to share the information with me ahead of time.

So, when it’s YOUR money on the line, you’re going to tell me to invest in the same defunct product and hope for a better outcome next time? I busted my *** for my money – the smart move was to pay for assurance in this case. I didn't demand $13k - simply the cost of the faulty product. No more, no less. Does his product bear culpability in that the install had to be performed twice, yes - and I resent BZM for that. But, it's just business.

So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM. When it was discovered that things were well beyond the original scope of concern (as eloquently stated in Tengai's post above), that’s when I requested a refund. If findings revealed a simple machining issue with the valves or whatnot, this story would have never been told and I would have been just another of the silent.

I’ve given the go-ahead for Todd to receive the motor – so I’ve cooperated to the best that I can. I’ve spoken with Sam this morning, I believe he will be giving the 3rd-party perspective in this thread shortly – the court of public opinion can continue to draw its own conclusions.

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

+10000. Honestly, and I can't even finish reading this thread in time to post a reply (because you all keep on replying so quickly), if there was a problem initially with the motor, and the original builder explained that he needed the motor back and would pay shipping both ways if it was a problem with his work, then you have NOTHING to lose, here. Even if you had a bad taste in your mouth from them, you owe them the right to give it a go and fix your motor. Think of electronics. Have you ever tried to take apart a tv, just to be stuck with that last pesky screw which is covered with a nifty little "Warranty Void If Broken" hologram sticker? Why do companies do this? Because they want to do warranty work THEMSELVES. Not because they make more money off of it, but because that is the only way the company knows that the product was not tampered with and was in-fact broken from the manufacturer. Once the seal of that motor was broken, and the OP refused to send the block to Todd, I believe that the OP made the decision knowing damn well that he could no longer ask Todd for a full reimbursement. This is only further supported by Todd's PMs to the OP and Sam. It is crystal clear that Todd had every intention on helping get down to the problem and fixing it, but the OP does not seem to have given him a fair chance. I do not believe Todd was the bad guy here, and if you all take a second to put yourself in his shoes and follow all sides of the story, you can clearly see what a ****ty situation this is for everyone EXCEPT GTM. I am not saying that GTM is the bad guy here, that still remains to be proven, but both Todd and the OP have much to lose here, and should have never gotten the third party (GTM) this heavily involved from the get-go.

abyss

holy eff this thread got big fast. It seems like BZM is being fair in the situation but it really is hard to grasp whats going on in a thread when you dont know all of the behind the scenes details.

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

Lemme sum up the behind the scenes details..

'First off' be professinal, not childish
'Second' Pictures, bad engine, period
'Third' "Oh, your in Cali, we'll ship the motor to ya in New Mexico"

Infinus

I guess by now everyone has already formed their own opinions in the matter and I don't see anyone changing their minds so all we can do is sit back and await the results of BZM's findings and see how the whole situation progresses.

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

we consulted with several performance machine shops before deciding to run larger clearances in these engines that will surely see at least double or triple its original intended power. The piston to wall clearance of the Arias ED piston, if they are indeed .007..that is too loose, I agree, an error on our part and it will not happen again. We will check this ourselves, WITH the torque plate installed at the time measured.

Bearing clearances:
For performance engines: it is acceptable to run .001 of oil clearance for evey inch of crank diameter, that would give 2.3thous for the main bearing and 2.1 for the rod. Running another one thousandth of clearance is added for higher stress/hp/revving situation. This is within spec for the above guidelines.

I have run these clearances on several engines with great success, my own included.

As far as the debris, when the upper and lower oil pan, oil cooler, other accessories are installed without proper cleaning, this can result in some excessive contamination. Some debris in a fresh engine is normal, I agree, that looks excessive, but again, other factors exist that are out of my hands.

We clean our blocks, cranks, heads after machining in a high temp pressure vat, then the block is then again gone through with several different size engine brushes and a simple green cleaning solution until every oil passage and coolant passage has been cleared, we rarely find any debris after the vat, but we include this step to avoid contamination.

For those of you that know me, I am very meticulous. I know for a fact that we go through several additrional steps in building an engine that is not standard for most. We do not cut corners.

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

wondering why you are jumping on NavyGolf in this thread, the same way you did in the VRT thread, are you just the instigator whenever a drama thread pops up? You got all over Navy because he had a connection ot the involved party, now you get involved because you have some connection...wow... a bit hypocritical. Please just read and don't post, you don't seem to contribute anything positive.

Navygolf13

iTrader: (5)

Seems someone is paying attention here. As far as I am concerned I think you rebuilding for him is fair and I hope everyone is happy when all is said and done. Good luck with your business! And to the OP, I hope you are happy with the outcome of this situation in the end....sorry to hear it didnt go as smoothly as you would have liked.

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

Please don't get me wrong Todd, for whatever it's worth I trust your judgement and reported history of engines without issue - as I'm sure Don did when he went to you in the first place.

Hopefully this all gets resolved quickly. Threads like this are often more harmful to the community than good. Too many a$$holes and too many opinions (me included )...

Navygolf13

iTrader: (5)

You know the saying right......"Opinions are like A**holes, everyone has one!" Nothing wrong with it though!

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

u talking about being hypocritical , i rather not make this more OT

best of luck with everything, sounds like you are on top of things doing things right, and getting over this