Sam@GTM

iTrader: (7)

When a consumer purchases a product from a company he is willingly accepting their terms and conditions for that product. When Todd was notified that there was a compression issue and valve clearance problem he should have instructed Don or us to not tear down the engine and for the engine to be sent back to him so he can rectify the situation. Instead he chose not to do that and let us proceed with our inspection since he was so confident the problem was not on his end. If you follow Don's original post every time the thread was bumped Todd would chime in and ask to be kept posted and wished Don luck. What did Todd expect from having a engine with low compression from the get go. Why didn't he ask Don to stop and get the engine back to his possession so he can be the first to inspect the engine and determine the problem. That is what I would have done have I been in Todd's situation. I actually told Todd that if I "was in your shoes" I would have the engine sent back to me to be inspected. Furthermore he came with the ridiculous idea of coming down to our shop and utilizing our facilities to fix the problem himself.

Bottom line is Don is the victim of both getting a bad product from the beginning, and then getting bad instruction from its builder on how he should handle the situation. It is clearly obvious that Don was in contact with Todd the minute that he discovered the engine had low compression on cylinder one. Todd's remedy was for Don to continue driving the car hoping that the problem will go away. I don't personally blame Don for posting or creating this thread, I believe he did get the impression that Todd was not going to take car of issue. Comments like "Good luck" and "Let me know" are not very reassuring. In a matter of fact I received the same impression due to Todd's continual denial and disbelief that there is something inherently wrong with the engine mechanically.

Put yourself in Don's shoes for a moment. You think you bought a solid engine from a professional engine builder, you install it yourself, you have a problem since day one, your local tuner cannot help you and he is lost as to why the car is not running properly. So Don had to make a 400mi drive to us so we can really find out exactly what is going on, and we did.

The BuiltZMotors engine was a poorly built engine since day one.

In my conversation with Todd, Todd was looking for a way out and denied any responsibility since day one, he kept saying it could be a tuning issue ,or maybe the rings got washed out, the engine was over revved, etc. Basically he was looking for any possibility or excuse he could come up with to make this a end user or tuning issue so he can rid himself of any liability.

Let's be objective and look at these issues individually:

First Issue: Poor cylinder compression in cylinder one.

Car had a misfire code (P301) from the get go.
Todd states this issues could be due to cylinder washing base on a excessivly rich start condition. If Don would have changed his EMS or fuel system upon installation of his new engine then I would agree that this could be a possibility, since none of these components were changed that is not a possible excuse for the poor compression in cylinder one. The car fired right up and idled fine. The car was driven for 250 miles before going to get the car tuned. I want to reiterate that they P0301 code was present before anyone touched the car including Dynocomp.

Second Issue: Pistons hitting the Heads

Upon inspection we found the pistons are hitting the heads. We explained why earlier in this thread. Lets assume for a second that our calculations are wrong and our measuremetns are incorrect, how does this change the fact that the pistons are hitting the heads?(which is a undeniable FACT)
Todd states that the reason the pistons are hitting the heads because the engine was over-revved.
If this was the case (again we are being objective) the valves would have hit the pistons and become bent. No valves are bent on this engine. Also you are going to tell me that Don is going to over rev a car that is not 100% tuned and is being broken in? I don't think anyone can say that Don is that incompetent. Therefore this is also not a valid excuse for the pistons hitting the heads.

Third Issue: Engine severely Contaminated

Upon inspection we found that this engine is also severely contaminated. Rod bearings are scored, a lot of foreign objects in the oil pan. Basically signs of a quickly and poorly assembled engine and/or improper cleaning and preparation of the core to be used for the build. I don't much needs to be said here since the pictures speak for themselves.
Todd states that the bearing wear pictured is normal and that some metal and RTV is normal for a newly built engine to be present in the oil pan.
I think its obvious, and we all know that the bearings pictures above DO NOT show normal wear and that the amount of debree (metal, RTV, etc.) found in this engine IS NOT normal.

GT Motorsports and BuiltZMotors previous business relationship:

Just because Todd and I are friends well not let me fog my vision between what is right and what is wrong. What is a good job and what is a bad job. What is ethical and what isn't ethical. So a few months back I decided to step back and slowly sever our ties and business relationship with Todd for several reasons...

Most of the cores we would get from Todd to be machined we unacceptable, some of them looked like a hand grenade went of in them. That was brought to Todd's attention and his comment was "it should be OK". When it comes to cleaning the blocks before and AFTER the machining process Todd would instruct us not to clean the blocks any further so he could save $100 in cost. The endless questions and tech support got really old and tiresome over time.

Even though Todd and I were friends and had a business relationship does not mean I am going to hide facts from a paying customer (Don) on what the situation is with his motor. I beleive it would have been wrong for me to cover up Todd's mistakes and that would have severely affected my conscience. I cannot bring myself to do that to someone.

On several occasions Todd has sent me several messages (some of them not very nice to say the least) regarding why am I telling Don that this is a machining issue and that I should have consulted with him first before letting Don know what is really going on.

Remember, history repeats itself...

Building engines on the side, and subletting jobs out does not work, you may get lucky sometimes and sometimes you may not. There are too many variables to worry about and you are not in full control. This is why GT Motorsports has invested over a million dollars in equipment to do this job in house so IF something goes wrong, finding the culprit is a lot easier than involving multiple parties.

Don,

As I told you on the phone we do respect and support what ever you decide to do, I want to be part of the solution, not the problem. So if getting another engine from Todd is your best option, I will do everything in my power to make your life easier, not harder. The question you have to ask your self is what will happen if this next engine is not right, who will pay for the R&R of the engine AGAIN? (Todd should have to think about this as well)

Sam

GT Motorsports

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Well said, Sam.

I personally choose not to argue any other points in this thread because it is not my place to do so.

However, I do find it amazing how easily many people on these forums allow the proverbial "wool" to be pulled over their eyes by a few sugar coated words. Let's hope that whatever comes out of this, that Don can finally be satisfied with the results because that's all that really matters.

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

I am going to be completely honest with you, Sam. The picture you painted for yourself initially was the unbiased third party. But now that we have all three sides to the story, you seem to be more of what Todd explains you to be and less what you are trying to pretend to be. Maybe it is just me, but it is rather apparent that you are out to make money on this deal. Furthermore, Todd's post says he told you he wanted to take the engine apart himself and that you blatantly stated that you would do everything you could to make sure that didn't happen. To me, if you had been the unbiased third party, this is where you should have ended your work on the engine and explained to Don that he should ship the engine back for further inspection. When you opened that engine up fully knowing what you did (A. that Don was going to be compromising his warranty conditions and B. that Todd wanted to do the work himself so he could know what was wrong) you put yourself in a position that anyone with good business ethics would try their hardest to avoid. Badmouthing the competition is NOT a good way to run a business and openly denying your competitor the right to fix their own problems only makes you look even worse. In my eyes, all you did was make this situation worse for both Todd and Don. Now Don is stuck with 13 thousand dollars in extra, unnecessary work (which would have been covered if Todd was allowed to do the work like he wanted) and Todd is stuck trying to figure out exactly what went wrong with his block, which is now in pieces, so he can learn from his mistakes. Honestly, you should have stayed out of it.

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

You honestly can find a way to take a stab at any and everyone. It is amazing.

paranormal

iTrader: (1)

first of all.. sam and GTMotorsports run a business and MYSELF and others who have already payed and have our cars at the shop Need to be completed too.. you think sam and GTM is going to do this work for free when they can be working on some other customers car?

of course they want to be payed for work done. who wouldnt.. this isnt a free get a deal type of thing.. GOING FI means spending money.. getting it done right and getting the right parts is up to you! if a shop somewhere along the lines Phucked up and gave you faulty parts.. GTM should not have to pay for BZM problem.. this is between the builder and the owner of the car.

im sure GTM would chard the same rates to any other customer for this work.. so where do you come off with your absurd statement!

Sam@GTM

iTrader: (7)

Well you obvisouly did not read my post completely, Maybe you were overwhelmed because of its length? Anyhow I do not have time to constantly address peoples comments but I will in your case.

I state very early in my post that I told Todd that If I was in his position I WOULD HAVE THE ENGINE SENT BACK TO ME FOR INSPECTION. He was so confident in his product and his machinist that he felt their was no need so we continued with our inspection. Where we suppose to wait for Todd to wake up one morning and decide it was time for us to send him the engine? Don wanted to find out what was going on and Todd made no offer for the engine to be sent back to him. INSTEAD when WE found out what the problem was he wanted to come to MY shop and do the repairs himself with MY equipment.

He is now taking the stand to inspect the engine when this is what he should have done from the beginning (as I advised him)

Please read my post again so I dont have to repeat myself.

Thank you.

Sam

GT Motorsports

paranormal

iTrader: (1)

and i think alot of the reason he opted for gtm to do the work is because they can do everything in house and get it back to him perfect.. instead of buying from person A installing with person B. tuning with person C and driving all around the west coast.. plus add in the fact that initial convo's between the owner and the builder were not very helpfull.. it takes a thread like this to get the builder to come to action and help the owner.. thats crap

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

I am not suggesting that Sam do any work for free. I am simply saying he should have never broken down the engine. He should have refused it because he knew that Todd wanted to do the work himself. The way it seems to be is Sam wanted to break the engine down because he knew he would make money in doing so, and he also knew that Don trusted him and was willing to pay for it. Therefore, he didn't care what Todd wanted and from what I gather he even blatantly told Todd that he was not interested in having him do the work and that he would rather do it so he could be payed for it. At least that is how I gathered it.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Thanks. I stand by my words, however. How's that wool lookin?

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

I understand why you might be frustrated with me, but try to refrain from the condescending tone from now on. What I am trying to explain to you is that you and Todd's stories simply do not add up. Todd explained earlier in this thread, which you failed to respond to, that:
You claim that:
So, which is it? I suggest you go reread Todd's post a few pages back and explain yourself, because the way Todd made you out to look was the money hungry shop owner and not the helpful, unbiased third party. I just think his story and yours should match up, and I am sure everyone else agrees. Therefore, I believe his post warrants your responses so you all can clear up the cloudiness and explain what really happened between you two.

Sam@GTM

iTrader: (7)

This was told to Don before and was reiterated again today. It is in Dons best interest to have one place handle the work, regardless if its GTM, Dynocomp, Forged, or whomever for that matter. That will gaurantee the best outcome for Don. Don is a smart and educated consumer that is capable of making his own decisions.

If he did not feel comfortable sending his engine to Todd there is nothing I could have done to change that. If Todd would have instructed that the engine needs to go to Todd for any warranty work to be covered that is what would have happend and is what is happening now, per Don's instruction.

As far as a money hungry shop owner, We are blessed with a lot of work and a lot of customers so we don't need to take advantage of anyones situation.

Sam

GT Motorsports

In this post below Don states why he did not send the engine back to Todd, and personally I don't blame him.

go-fast

i went back to the pics and still see the same thing ,a big hunk of carbon like blob in center of piston,with this low of mileage absolutley should not be there . as tuning changes and parts bang around carbon flakes will lift off of pistons and tend to remain in center giving the appearance of a cleaner chamber than when damage was done.now i'm just looking at pictures,but it looks like that flake is pretty thick!if you look in the valve reliefs you will also notice clean spots like the carbon was smacked off of the piston,if the valve actually touched the head you would see piston deformation ,not just a clean spot.i don't have this engine in my hands but experience tells me that if those pistons touched that head at any rpm ,not only would you hear it but you would see clear physical damage(mushroomed crowns,squeezed lands..).i see none of it.as far as dirty motors and bad valve seats ,i would want my motor back without other peoples fingers in it to determine if warranty was a valid claim.

overZealous1

iTrader: (27)

+1 i know this is a difficult situation, but usually having a second party find mistakes and then you giving them the go ahead and do the work, then have the original builder pay the difference is not how it works. once that probs were known about the engine it should have gone back to todd immediately after the comp check and had him fix it, not gtm. having gtm fix it was your descision and not bzm's, so that created the extra labor bill that would not have been incurred had todd done the inspection and repaired it himself.
i know it can be a double edged sword and a crappy position and all, but that is the correct way of handling it and todd does seem willing to handle it considering it was not handled correctly. most machine shops will tell ya to go eff yourself. i have dealt with many bad machine shops and parts suppliers and have had spendy motors that didn't last 45 minutes blow up (3 in 2 months no fault of my own!). i just got a pat on my back and told ' thats the price you pay to go fast!'
i have been in this situation before, and am not getting on ANYONES side what so ever by this post. mearly pointing out how the process should of been handled to make it fair for everyone. again, most shops will tell ya to go to hell having another shop fix their work.

didn't read all the posts to see this had already been discussed, lol.

Infinus

Which is why hes only asking for the refund of the original engine cost not the entire cost of the teardown thats not the issue here....

overZealous1

iTrader: (27)

i'm not saying that isn't warranted to get a refund for the engine, it would have eliminated this thread though had it been handled completely by todd. after reading more (i posted after reading to about page 5) it may sound like todd delayed abit though and may have helped create this problem. i was mearly stating how this situation should have been handled by both parties is all.

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

Sam,

No offense, but maybe the smart move on your part would have been to turn away the diagnosis work after you found the low compression issue. Being a shop owner, put yourself in Todd's shoes:

1. You build a motor
2. You ship the motor to Don
3. Don installs, finds issues, takes to another shop for diagnosis
4. Your response upon hearing this is?

I'd bet that you'd want the motor back. Regardless of the customer, it's important to address all parties involved as to the "best" course of action in order to keep things on the level (i.e. what lends to less conflict).

By simply accepting to tear the motor apart, you've put yourself in a bad position. And by way of it, you've placed Don and Todd in bad positions as well.

My recommendation to you is this: regardless of how the customer feels about the shop that he was dealing with, the ethical thing to do would be consult the individual as to a possible scenario like this one. IF the customer decides to go ahead and have you work on the engine, you then explain it to the individual that from that point on - there will be no involvement with the other shop from your camp. It's a tough choice, but it's the only way to stay out of a situation like this...

I already said it, but I think that a series of bad decisions were made by all parties involved. Instead of pointing fingers, it's probably best that all 3 of you sit down and figure this out. But bashing eachother online is really poor form IMO.

Conceyted

iTrader: (7)

Yes, Sam, I see you are sticking to your story, so I am going to assume a neutral stance here and pretend like I never heard either of them until you all figure it out. But, Sam, if you had built an engine and were in Todd's shoes, and your customer that you built the engine for brought it to another shop and said my engine isn't cranking out the hp do the diagnostic work to figure it out. They did the compression test and etc etc. Would you be willing to take a motor back in pieces and trust a 3rd party's shops diagnostics. Furthermore, would you still honor your warranty even after another shop has disassembled your built engine and you knew that the engine you would be receiving would be coming back in pieces? I honestly do not believe you would feel any differently than Todd in this situation. I understand you feel Todd might have not stepped up to help soon enough, and that is a completely legitimate accusation. All I am saying is if someone else disassembled your engine, would you not be in the very difficult position of believing that the shop that tore down the engine (and wanted to build the second engine for your customer) gave a proper diagnosis? Again, I believe it just shouldn't have happened. Once you found a problem with the motor it should have been immediately brought to Todd's attention and been sent back to him. Wouldn't you expect the same of your customers if they encountered problems?

PS: Sorry, TENGAI, I just reread your post and it appears we have much of the same questions. :-)

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (4)

Stop beating around the bush and answer his question.

stormcrow

iTrader: (14)

i'm confused... are you saying todd never asked for the motor back as you stated in your previous post? you really didn't answer concyted's question nor respond to what Todd posted... when Todd found out that there was poor compression in cylinder 1, did he or did he not request the motor back for analysis?

since you did not address the question posed, i'm reading between the lines here and coming to the conclusion that he DID ask for the motor back and you subtly persuaded Don that having one person do all of the work was his best course of action... i'm not, in the least, stating that this is not the best course of action when INITIALLY starting a motor build... but, in Don's situation, it was a HUGE mistake to follow that route as he basically voided any warranty from BZM when he allowed you to tear down the motor...

trying to look out for a customer by pointing them down the proper path is not unethical... so, on one side of the coin, i believe you were giving proper advice... but, on the flip side, if you were TRULY looking after Don's best interest, you would have persuaded him to send the motor back for warranty work...sell it...and recoupe whatever monies he could...all the while building him a new motor that he felt comfortable with... i honestly think you took the wrong path and left Don holding the bag...

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

i agree....
now that all cards are on the table what the 3rd party is saying is that on you item 4. BZm was confident enough on the engine so 3rd party continued diagnose, and bzm did not request engine back till later (who to trust, as everybody else here).
But i agreee maybe 3rd party should have taken a different position in the first palce but its done, engine has problems, customer suffers most. Now they must work something out together and help Don