My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
08-09-2007, 09:18 AM
#141
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Out of curiosity, for those reading this that have no firsthand knowledge from either side. How do we believe either party, the OP or the shop. I dont want to get into a pissing match here about what has happened in the past. I am asking a fair question, I dont know anyone involved and have not been privy to anything firsthand, but how do I as a consumer separate the BS from fact? I think it is obvious there are two different stories and both could be the truth, so how do people here separate fact from fiction?
08-09-2007, 09:20 AM
#142
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^^^^
dammed ...now this thread might end up being close...
as always because of...
Info is posted with facts, many people personally know the OP and know the details quite well...
If they just flamed just because....their business i don't defend that.
There is no 2 different stories...so far the matched. Todd just added some insight into it with the 3rd party...
dammed ...now this thread might end up being close...
as always because of...
Info is posted with facts, many people personally know the OP and know the details quite well...
If they just flamed just because....their business i don't defend that.
There is no 2 different stories...so far the matched. Todd just added some insight into it with the 3rd party...
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 08-09-2007 at 09:25 AM.
08-09-2007, 09:20 AM
#143
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I understand...
I would think that Sams analysis should be MORE than enough to consider some compensation. Give him the motor and get your money back less 10% or something like that. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you did everything possible and are simply tired of the faulty product/ situation.
I would think that Sams analysis should be MORE than enough to consider some compensation. Give him the motor and get your money back less 10% or something like that. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you did everything possible and are simply tired of the faulty product/ situation.
08-09-2007, 09:21 AM
#144
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Originally Posted by Triji
Well Todd....
Why would Don choose to take his motor to GTM instead of to you to get it fixed / inspected in the first place? There seems to be a hole somewhere, how was your initial handling of the situation when Don 1st brought this to your attention?.....
I know there is alot in the installation process of the motor but for someone with a working knowledge it becomes more like an erector set. Don has an above average working knowledge.
I am curious to your initial reaction and what caused Don to take his motor to GTM initially...
Why would Don choose to take his motor to GTM instead of to you to get it fixed / inspected in the first place? There seems to be a hole somewhere, how was your initial handling of the situation when Don 1st brought this to your attention?.....
I know there is alot in the installation process of the motor but for someone with a working knowledge it becomes more like an erector set. Don has an above average working knowledge.
I am curious to your initial reaction and what caused Don to take his motor to GTM initially...
My initial response was -sorry to hear about the issues, hope it is resolved and nothing serious, at that point, he had just told me it wasn't make the power it hsould have been making when it was dynoed...(this was after he told me that the engine was broken in super rich and running poorly), as things progressed and he kept me posted, I suspected an over-rev scenario, I told him clearly, if there was an issue with the engine machining or assembly, that I would rebuild it and rectify all problems with the engine and fix it 100%.
In my initial pm's/emails with Don, I told him that our implied warranty was that as stated above: if there is a machining error or assembly error, we will fix it at our cost.
Don told me he was taking it to GTM for diagnostic work. When they decided to pull the motor, I told Don and Sam to send the motor back to me and I would inspect it and fix whatever we found, that was not done. Now Don wants a full refund after my direct competition (who is currently in a pissing match with me as well) disassembled the engine and diagnosed the issues.
Even after Don going outside of what I had recommended, even after the engine will be shipped back to me in pieces, I am still willing to do some further investigation as to the cause of failure, fix the issues, rebuild it to 100% capacity, and ship it back to him.
Even back when Sam called me, he said that their own policy, GTM's policy, is that they will ONLY warrantee a motor that leaves their shop for install if it is shipped back to them, undisturbed (not disassembled by another party).
So, after all these pages of comments are unfolding, let's get some comments form some of the other vendor's policies here...
We spend years trying to build up our name/reputation, be as ethical as possible, build the best quality product, and still try to have competitive pricing, and then in seconds, it can be destroyed.
As far as I'm concerned, Don went the wrong route posting a thread trying to tarnish our name. I will still be cooperative in this matter, inspect the engine and rebuild it, which is more than I am obligated to do at this point.
So, the current facts: we offered to warranty our engine when it was shipped back to us, the customer chose to have a different shop tear the motor down and rebuild a completely different motor. That was his decision, ultimately that will cost much more. I'm sure the response coming is that they didn;t want another faulty engine, understand, we have many more successes than failures- many factors involved in getting a built motor to be a success (start-up, break in, tune, engine management, etc.).
As I stated. I am still willing to accept the engine back in pieces... inspect what we can (tough to do after its been torn down), and then remedy the issues (new parts, machining, whatever is needed) and then reassemble and ship back.
I just want to know what failed, because as I clearly pointed out above, it was not due to .0005 more rod clearance, .001 more piston to wall clearance, or .003 decking of the block... so was it a parts defect/failure? hopefully WE will find out soon, at OUR local machine shop.
-TODD
Last edited by 350zDCalb; 08-09-2007 at 09:27 AM.
08-09-2007, 09:22 AM
#145
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
Out of curiosity, for those reading this that have no firsthand knowledge from either side. How do we believe either party, the OP or the shop. I dont want to get into a pissing match here about what has happened in the past. I am asking a fair question, I dont know anyone involved and have not been privy to anything firsthand, but how do I as a consumer separate the BS from fact? I think it is obvious there are two different stories and both could be the truth, so how do people here separate fact from fiction?
Your talking out of both sides of your mouth..
08-09-2007, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
Out of curiosity, for those reading this that have no firsthand knowledge from either side. How do we believe either party, the OP or the shop. I dont want to get into a pissing match here about what has happened in the past. I am asking a fair question, I dont know anyone involved and have not been privy to anything firsthand, but how do I as a consumer separate the BS from fact? I think it is obvious there are two different stories and both could be the truth, so how do people here separate fact from fiction?
This is one reason why I decided to get mine done all in-house, as I've seen another friend go through this EXACT same issue. Lets hope this one is handled in a better manner by the engine builder than the last...
08-09-2007, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
Out of curiosity, for those reading this that have no firsthand knowledge from either side. How do we believe either party, the OP or the shop. I dont want to get into a pissing match here about what has happened in the past. I am asking a fair question, I dont know anyone involved and have not been privy to anything firsthand, but how do I as a consumer separate the BS from fact? I think it is obvious there are two different stories and both could be the truth, so how do people here separate fact from fiction?
08-09-2007, 09:23 AM
#148
Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
Should Todd choose to pick the motor up from GTM, that is fine. At this point, I have no confidence in his products and fear that continuing to use them only exposes me to greater financial risk. The findings per GTM are unlikely to be refuted, so a refund post-vendor inspection would be warranted and is again be requested. Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.
The findings per GTM are unlikely to be refuted, so a refund post-vendor inspection would be warranted and is again be requested. Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.
08-09-2007, 09:25 AM
#149
Originally Posted by Navygolf13
Out of curiosity, for those reading this that have no firsthand knowledge from either side. How do we believe either party, the OP or the shop. I dont want to get into a pissing match here about what has happened in the past. I am asking a fair question, I dont know anyone involved and have not been privy to anything firsthand, but how do I as a consumer separate the BS from fact? I think it is obvious there are two different stories and both could be the truth, so how do people here separate fact from fiction?
its simple.. you listen to both sides.. you listen to the OP and you listen to the shop.. and whom ever has the best facts or handles themselves better you go with them..
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
08-09-2007, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.
08-09-2007, 09:27 AM
#151
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Originally Posted by rcdash
Based on the evidence presented in this public forum, I think this position is unreasonable. If you had a neutral 3rd party evaluate the motor and gotten agreement from BZM ahead of time for this, then you would have been all set... Even GTM's report indicates that "high revs" are an issue here...
when u see yourself having to shell an addition 6k 13k out of somethign that was suppose to be flawless... then id be different
08-09-2007, 09:28 AM
#152
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Originally Posted by Kenk2
Your talking out of both sides of your mouth..
Originally Posted by doug
its simple.. you listen to both sides.. you listen to the OP and you listen to the shop.. and whom ever has the best facts or handles themselves better you go with them..
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
08-09-2007, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenk2
Your talking out of both sides of your mouth..
08-09-2007, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
My initial response was -sorry to hear about the issues, hope it is resolved and nothing serious, at that point, he had just told me it wasn't make the power it hsould have been making when it was dynoed...(this was after he told me that the engine was broken in super rich and running poorly), as things progressed and he kept me posted, I suspected an over-rev scenario, I told him clearly, if there was an issue with the engine machining or assembly, that I would rebuild it and rectify all problems with the engine and fix it 100%.
In my initial pm's/emails with Don, I told him that our implied warranty was that as stated above: if there is a machining error or assembly error, we will fix it at our cost.
Don told me he was taking it to GTM for diagnostic work. When they decided to pull the motor, I told Don and Sam to send the motor back to me and I would inspect it and fix whatever we found, that was not done. Now Don wants a full refund after my direct competition (who is currently in a pissing match with me as well) disassembled the engine and diagnosed the issues.
Even after Don going outside of what I had recommended, even after the engine will be shipped back to me in pieces, I am still willing to do some further investigation as to the cause of failure, fix the issues, rebuild it to 100% capacity, and ship it back to him.
Even back when Sam called me, he said that their own policy, GTM's policy, is that they will ONLY warrantee a motor that leaves their shop for install if it is shipped back to them, undisturbed (not disassembled by another party).
So, after all these pages of comments are unfolding, let's get some comments form some of the other vendor's policies here...
We spend years trying to build up our name/reputation, be as ethical as possible, build the best quality product, and still try to have competitive pricing, and then in seconds, it can be destroyed.
As far as I'm concerned, Don went the wrong route posting a thread trying to tarnish our name. I will still be cooperative in this matter, inspect the engine and rebuild it, which is more than I am obligated to do at this point.
So, the current facts: we offered to warranty our engine when it was shipped back to us, the customer chose to have a different shop tear the motor down and rebuild a completely different motor. That was his decision, ultimately that will cost much more. I'm sure the response coming is that they didn;t want another faulty engine, understand, we have many more successes than failures- many factors involved in getting a built motor to be a success (start-up, break in, tune, engine management, etc.).
As I stated. I am still willing to accept the engine back in pieces... inspect what we can (tough to do after its been torn down), and then remedy the issues (new parts, machining, whatever is needed) and then reassemble and ship back.
I just want to know what failed, because as I clearly pointed out above, it was not due to .0005 more rod clearance, .001 more piston to wall clearance, or .003 decking of the block... so was it a parts defect/failure? hopefully WE will find out soon, at OUR local machine shop.
-TODD
In my initial pm's/emails with Don, I told him that our implied warranty was that as stated above: if there is a machining error or assembly error, we will fix it at our cost.
Don told me he was taking it to GTM for diagnostic work. When they decided to pull the motor, I told Don and Sam to send the motor back to me and I would inspect it and fix whatever we found, that was not done. Now Don wants a full refund after my direct competition (who is currently in a pissing match with me as well) disassembled the engine and diagnosed the issues.
Even after Don going outside of what I had recommended, even after the engine will be shipped back to me in pieces, I am still willing to do some further investigation as to the cause of failure, fix the issues, rebuild it to 100% capacity, and ship it back to him.
Even back when Sam called me, he said that their own policy, GTM's policy, is that they will ONLY warrantee a motor that leaves their shop for install if it is shipped back to them, undisturbed (not disassembled by another party).
So, after all these pages of comments are unfolding, let's get some comments form some of the other vendor's policies here...
We spend years trying to build up our name/reputation, be as ethical as possible, build the best quality product, and still try to have competitive pricing, and then in seconds, it can be destroyed.
As far as I'm concerned, Don went the wrong route posting a thread trying to tarnish our name. I will still be cooperative in this matter, inspect the engine and rebuild it, which is more than I am obligated to do at this point.
So, the current facts: we offered to warranty our engine when it was shipped back to us, the customer chose to have a different shop tear the motor down and rebuild a completely different motor. That was his decision, ultimately that will cost much more. I'm sure the response coming is that they didn;t want another faulty engine, understand, we have many more successes than failures- many factors involved in getting a built motor to be a success (start-up, break in, tune, engine management, etc.).
As I stated. I am still willing to accept the engine back in pieces... inspect what we can (tough to do after its been torn down), and then remedy the issues (new parts, machining, whatever is needed) and then reassemble and ship back.
I just want to know what failed, because as I clearly pointed out above, it was not due to .0005 more rod clearance, .001 more piston to wall clearance, or .003 decking of the block... so was it a parts defect/failure? hopefully WE will find out soon, at OUR local machine shop.
-TODD
08-09-2007, 09:32 AM
#156
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
How so? I asked a question as to the validity of what BOTH parties are saying not one or the other...as for anything I have said in the past about anything else, I never posted if I had not at least spoken with both parties. End of story, I dont want this to go anywhere other than on topic.
08-09-2007, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by THE TECH
Sounds more than fair to me.
I agree with Don's posting as long as it was warranted, which it seems like it was. Todd, you act like you're doing him a favor by helping him in this manner. In my opinion, you're obligated to after telling people that your products are warrantied. There's no reason why he should have to go to this sort of measure to get something fixed.
I'm sorry, but there's just no way I'd ever consider buying something from BZM. Not because of the mechanical issues with mutliple motors I've seen/heard of coming from your shop, but because the way you've handled them. It's already been verified you've been lying to other customers saying that he just "bent a valve" and trying to make it seem like it was his shop's issue. Obviously it wasn't. Now you're pushing back and making it seem like he did you wrong and you're doing the "right thing" by trying to help him.
Give me a break, at this point it's not about customer service, it's about damage control. I think everyone here realizes that. Don't assume we are so naieve not to...
08-09-2007, 09:37 AM
#158
Navy sponsors reputations aren't broken by negative threads.. its broken when they fail to respond to claims made about them or fail to fix their mistakes..
look at the negative thread that was made about Sharif.. he handled it great and no one even remembers anything bad about him or his shop.. what they remember is the claims made towards him and how he handled it.
VRT wasn't broken from the 50 negative threads about them.. VRT was broken by not responding to them and you trying to defend them
look at the negative thread that was made about Sharif.. he handled it great and no one even remembers anything bad about him or his shop.. what they remember is the claims made towards him and how he handled it.
VRT wasn't broken from the 50 negative threads about them.. VRT was broken by not responding to them and you trying to defend them
08-09-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by doug
its simple.. you listen to both sides.. you listen to the OP and you listen to the shop.. and whom ever has the best facts or handles themselves better you go with them..
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
I guess there really is no easy way to separate these stories and people just make up their own minds. Some will side one way and others will side the other. I dont think anyone can stand on their soapbox and say which one is 100% right. I am sorry if I did that in the past, I will not do that anymore. We all have the right to believe what we do and no one should fault anyone for the way they feel or what they believe. So that being said can we please move on from the past? I am trying to further the dscussion is all....
08-09-2007, 09:38 AM
#160
Originally Posted by Navygolf13
I understand you listen to both sides of the story, but from reading this it is hard to determine what actually happened and that is my problem here. Todd says he tried to contact the OP and the OP says he had no contact from Todd. There is obviously an issue between GTM and BZM and that puts another issue in here. I am just trying to understand how as a community we can determine these things. It seems to me like someone says something bad about a company and people come out of the woodwork.....every shop has their ups and downs, satisfied cutsomers and unhappy customers.
I guess there really is no easy way to separate these stories and people just make up their own minds. Some will side one way and others will side the other. I dont think anyone can stand on their soapbox and say which one is 100% right. I am sorry if I did that in the past, I will not do that anymore. We all have the right to believe what we do and no one should fault anyone for the way they feel or what they believe. So that being said can we please move on from the past? I am trying to further the dscussion is all....
I guess there really is no easy way to separate these stories and people just make up their own minds. Some will side one way and others will side the other. I dont think anyone can stand on their soapbox and say which one is 100% right. I am sorry if I did that in the past, I will not do that anymore. We all have the right to believe what we do and no one should fault anyone for the way they feel or what they believe. So that being said can we please move on from the past? I am trying to further the dscussion is all....