JET MECH

iTrader: (2)

Just got my snow stage two water injection system. I have been doing some research and have come to the determination that the best placement for the water injection nozzle is at least 10" away from the TB. Well with the vortech setup i am sure many of you know the MAF is located quite close to the TB and i feel if i mount the nozzle in the hard pipe bend just before the TB that the water injection spray will not be used as effectively as it could be. If it was located upstream a bit or possibly right after the intercooler discharge area it would have more time to vaporize and thoroughly cool the air intake charger before enterig the plenum. Question is will this damage the MAF sensor if done so far upstream of the sensor?

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

could you please cite source for 10" optimal placement as I have never seen such data.
I spray 3" and 6" from the TB with excellent results. RCdash probably has even more data than that citing similar results.

You never wanna spray thru the maf. It will burn out the sensor fast. What EMS do you have? Fcon/Haltech/ProEFI you dont need a MAF.

JET MECH

iTrader: (2)

I am trying to find the reference to that 10" dimension that i quoted but am having a hard time finding it. Give me some time and i will dig it up but regardless i have been reading that the farther away from the TB the more time the water has to vaporize and remove the heat from the air intake charge prior to entering the combustion chamber. Note i will be using water injection only at this time ( NO METH ) due to i run 100 oct fuel only and i do not want to retune quite yet. I want the most benifits from the cooling ability of the water alone as if i was running a larger intercooler. BTW just running a Utech for EMS, nothing fancy here............I am running this setup more as a saftey measure rather that for added power. If i gain a couple of RWHP than that is just a added bonus.

JET MECH

iTrader: (2)

I am thinking i may locate the MAF sensor just past the intercooler discharge and then locate my water nozzle just down stream of that. I have also purchased a stand alone IAT senor and indicator to monitor the temps with water injection enabled and disabled to see the temperture difference. I will locate the temp sensor just past the TB in the upper plenum. It looks like i will be able to monitor the IAT pre MAF through my blitz R-VIT display due to it picking up temp through the MAF sensor.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (2)

Thats the first time I hear putting a nozzle that far away, its not very far but dont know why one would. Like mentioned above, about 3" from the TB is pretty much where everyone puts it. I would be more interested in getting water in the combustion chamber than cooling down all your piping and manifold.

JET MECH

iTrader: (2)

I think closer to the TB is optimal for water/meth or 100% methanol injection but for 100% water injection upstream is more benificial due to more time for water/heat trasfer. Also why do some people inject pre turbo/centrifical S/C? That is obviously way upstream of the TB. We all know it raises hell with the compressor blades but there must be some major benfit's for some people to opt to do this.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (2)

Well injecting pre-turbine has nothing to do with the purpose of injecting it before the TB. The reason pre-turbine injection is beneficial is because it allows for a more efficient compressor output, denser charged air in the housing, etc,... they dont do it for cooling the pipes, by the time the air gets compressed there shouldnt be much vapor or anything remaining(When done properly). Takes alot of effort getting the perfect angle, nozzle size, preventing drop when injection turns off, etc... Thats why alot of people have issues eating up blades, cuz its not done properly

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

streetzlegend is correct. I have a set up to optionally inject pre-turbo (dual 3 mm nozzles fed by a solenoid shut off valve) and pre-TB (8 mm and 9 mm nozzles). I don't have good data on the benefit of pre-turbo spraying, so for the most part it has remained unused. I'll test it next time I go back to the dyno.

Locating the pre-TB nozzles farther away permits better atomization and greater opportunity for air charge cooling. Locating closer to the engine facilitates better in cylinder cooling and lower EGTs. I have seen multiple references indicating that one should NOT spray pre-MAF but I am not really sure what the risks are (I suspect the usual corrosive properties). I don't think you'll have any trouble just by finding some convenient post-MAF, pre-TB location.

JET MECH

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for the feed back. It looks like i will reposition my MAF further upstream of the intake tract so i can position my water injection nozzle further away from the TB to take advantage of cooling the intake charge before it enters the combustion chamber. I would rather have the the majority of the cooling take place before it enters the combustion chamber " denser intake air " rather than the cooling effect in the combustion chamber to supress detination. like i said before i am already running 100 oct fuel and will not be running meth so cooling the intake air before it enters the combustion chamber will be my number one goal. I will not be adding more boost, advancing my timing or re-tuning so adding meth to the mix on top of my 100 oct fuel would be a waste of time. I am installing this for a added saftey no more no less.

onevq35de

Yes. Thinking outside the box. Most people do this or most people do that. Don't want to be most people because most people are wrong. Herd mentality. Only problem with this is f'ing up the MAF sensor but using distilled water and getting water to atomize well whether by distance and/or jet size & pressure would be the way to go.

bealljk

iTrader: (13)

well...you know...7 years & 4 months ... it 'could' be a record...

onevq35de

Damn. I knew I should've waited a few more years, just to be sure.

andybp

I wouldn't inject before the MAF since these are hot wire sensors it may lead to erratic flow readings from the sensor but since I agree with you about herd mentality, read up on how hot wire sensors work and make your own decision

onevq35de

I had the thought before I could find the proof. Got the proof for pre-compressor but unsure about pre-maf. Will no more next week. MAF's are cheap enough to experiment with. If one goes, I'll toss it and throw in another. It'll be a tosser, eh.

BluestreamDE

^if you are still using the stock maf sensor, yes. They are relativly cheap.

...but I couldn't convince myself to pay top dollar for a Uprev GT maf every few months.


PS: Remember Oldman said to me a while back, and I'm sure other members would agree, that Water injection ultimately is a bandaid for poor intercooling. It's cheap and produces power when setup properly, I know. I've used it and enjoyed it alot. However it's another point of failure in your build. GOD forbid the pump fails when your hitting high boost levels and you lean out. Then boom. Just my .02 brother.

bealljk

iTrader: (13)

LOL!! Funny!! Sorta happy this thread came up bc I'm considering water injection

does this apply to temp sensors too?


I got an extra few...PM me and I'll send one over (no charge) if you need it.

bealljk

iTrader: (13)

LOL!! Funny!! Sorta happy this thread came up bc I'm considering water injection

does this apply to temp sensors too?


I got an extra few...PM me and I'll send one over (no charge) if you need it.

(I dont know the answer - just throwing this out there) Is it a bandaid if the engine runs fine without water injection...but the water drops IAT that much more and provides cooling and cleaning at the same time?

E85 vs. 91 + Inj

BluestreamDE

Honestly I'm sure with meth+E85 it will be that much more effective, Methanol is a higher octane fuel than Ethanol and cools the charge air more effectively. When I was on the stock motor after a good run (93+100 Meth Spray) I would lift my hood and see condensation and frost on my Kinetic manifold. So you know the air was hella chilled.

bealljk

iTrader: (13)

E85 + meth = golden land

I like methanol for sure ... I'm at a self-inflicted fork in the road ... upgrade my fuel pump and possibly injectors and bite the bullet on E85 or do I go methanol?

Theres not many E85 stations around and the inconsistency of the fuel grade scares me...obviously a sensor can help this...

I like flexibility of running water, methanol, or nothing at all (tune-dependent).

awesome! After installing the hood vents my plenum is cool or luke-warm to the touch and my hot starts have pretty much disappeared.

BluestreamDE

Yea brother, it was indeed awesome! I love meth injection don't get me wrong, but i think I'm just seeing how far I can go with an off the shelf vortech and E85 for now. With 2000cc injectors and only 53% max duty cycle, I have more than enough room for growth. Only way I'd probably use a combination of E85 and meth is if I upgrade the blower to at least a Ti trim right now. My meth kit can wait until then lol

If I was in your shoes, I would just do meth injection and the inconsistencies of your E85 station is a valid reason why.