Limit of standard arp headstuds
10-07-2009, 12:18 PM
#21
What are the pros and cons to having head studs that stretch and don't stretch? Other then HP numbers of course.
If they stretch and you experience headlift the head will come back down correct?
If they don't stretch and you have headlift then the head will not come back down?
Are these accurate assumptions? I would think in theory you would want head studs that stretch, but am I wrong?
This is good information here for sure
If they stretch and you experience headlift the head will come back down correct?
If they don't stretch and you have headlift then the head will not come back down?
Are these accurate assumptions? I would think in theory you would want head studs that stretch, but am I wrong?
This is good information here for sure
10-07-2009, 12:40 PM
#22
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let's take this in another direction..... if the few hundred bucks it takes to get head gaskets and L19's are going to cost too much; the OP doesn't have deep enough pockets to boost his car in the first place. And if he does have enough money he is just looking for places to be cheap
either way, as far as pricing, id save on going with eagle rods...id save on going with wiseco pistons..... as far as gasket, i guess depending on who puts engine together, type of ems, tune, fuel...stock gasket coudl be ok.....and i suggested he uses hr studs in my 1st post...
10-07-2009, 12:43 PM
#23
What are the pros and cons to having head studs that stretch and don't stretch? Other then HP numbers of course.
If they stretch and you experience headlift the head will come back down correct?
If they don't stretch and you have headlift then the head will not come back down?
Are these accurate assumptions? I would think in theory you would want head studs that stretch, but am I wrong?
This is good information here for sure
If they stretch and you experience headlift the head will come back down correct?
If they don't stretch and you have headlift then the head will not come back down?
Are these accurate assumptions? I would think in theory you would want head studs that stretch, but am I wrong?
This is good information here for sure
Up until I heard about MadScientist experiencing head lift at about 680 whp, I was planning on using TTY bolts on my new build. Not anymore, because I will probably be exceeding that power level.
Evidently Go-Fast has a different opinion on whether TTY bolts can be re-used. I did a brief search, and there are differing opinions. The predominant school of thought is that they should be replaced after every use, and never re-used. The other school of thought (which appears to be in the minority) is that they can be re-used if the bolts meet a relaxed length specification. EDIT: Of the first 4 references I found, 3 said never re-use TTY bolts, while 1 provided both of the differing opinions and said that it is still open to debate. The links to those references are provided below.
For the power levels that we are playing with, I personally would not attempt to re-use a TTY bolt. I am, however, re-using my ARP studs.
Here are some links that provide further detail:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._bolt_use.aspx
http://www.robbos.com.au/myweb/Tech_Bolts.htm
http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/a1_4.html
http://www.engineproblem.com.au/torque.htm
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-07-2009 at 04:05 PM.
10-07-2009, 04:03 PM
#26
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i agree as well,personally "i" would not re-use.....my whole point was that your info was not accurate and need an *.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
Last edited by go-fast; 10-07-2009 at 04:04 PM.
10-07-2009, 04:20 PM
#27
i agree as well,personally "i" would not re-use.....my whole point was that your info was not accurate and need an *.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
10-07-2009, 04:37 PM
#28
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10-07-2009, 04:49 PM
#29
My uderstanding of the ARP bolts is that they are better after they have been used once, or streched (stressed) since they do have a very small amount of give to them. I heard this both from Frank Hill and Jim Justice.
10-07-2009, 04:51 PM
#30
Negative Jorge - I have L19s and HR gaskets. I consulted with the mad scientist prior to the first build.
My uderstanding of the ARP bolts is that they are better after they have been used once, or streched (stressed) since they do have a very small amount of give to them. I heard this both from Frank Hill and Jim Justice.
My uderstanding of the ARP bolts is that they are better after they have been used once, or streched (stressed) since they do have a very small amount of give to them. I heard this both from Frank Hill and Jim Justice.
EDIT: to save everyone time, here are the different perspectives about re-use of TTY bolts that I found:
"Torque-To-Yield (TTY) is a term that you should be familiar with because it describes a type of head bolt that is used on many late model engines. Unlike ordinary head bolts, TTY head bolts are designed to deform - but do it in a controlled way. Like a standard head bolt, a TTY bolt will stretch and spring back up to its yield point. But once the yield point is passed, the bolt becomes permanently stretched and does not return to its original length. Because of this, TTY bolts should not be reused."
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._bolt_use.aspx
"Conventional head bolts simply just did not wear out. Torque to yield head bolts however, by the very nature of their design, do wear out and should NEVER be reused."
http://www.robbos.com.au/myweb/Tech_Bolts.htm
"So in summary you can use the old fashion head bolts over and over but when it
comes to torque to yield they need to be replaced with new ones."
http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/a1_4.html
"Some manufacturers also insist upon TTY head bolts being replaced on every removal while others only require the used TTY bolt to meet a relaxed length specification. While other manufacturers insist upon replacement yet supply a relaxed length specification. A fair amount of confusion still exists in this area."
http://www.engineproblem.com.au/torque.htm
These just happened to be the first 4 links that I found, nonethelss there are a number of other links if anyone wants to continue researching the subject. I'm sure if someone searches hard enough they can find some other perspective...
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-07-2009 at 05:22 PM.
10-07-2009, 05:08 PM
#31
I think people arque semantics a little too much in real technical thought provoking discussions. The discussion moves away from teh real point and towards verbage.
Thats why I asked if you were being sarcastic bc, Go-Fast I know you are a very experienced person, but tend to argue for arguments sake.
If the persone tryin to save money by using TTY bolts is doing that, there's little chance they own a micrometer to measure used vs new bolts either.
again 64$ is trivial so no reason to reuse such a critical component
and Cass007, where's the high boost dynos
Thats why I asked if you were being sarcastic bc, Go-Fast I know you are a very experienced person, but tend to argue for arguments sake.
If the persone tryin to save money by using TTY bolts is doing that, there's little chance they own a micrometer to measure used vs new bolts either.
again 64$ is trivial so no reason to reuse such a critical component
and Cass007, where's the high boost dynos
i agree as well,personally "i" would not re-use.....my whole point was that your info was not accurate and need an *.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
just because we wouldn't use them doesn't mean never.if the bolt does not change size and the threads show no sign of thinning the tty bolt is considered safe to use.the indication of bolt fatigue is dimensional change whether it's a rod bolt or head bolt the rules don't change.
Last edited by str8dum1; 10-07-2009 at 05:09 PM.
10-07-2009, 05:20 PM
#32
not necesarly a general rule that iet means no funds or cheap, but ....just to point somethign recent.. Cass has HR studs....and his dection had nothing to do with how "little" his pockets are
either way, as far as pricing, id save on going with eagle rods...id save on going with wiseco pistons..... as far as gasket, i guess depending on who puts engine together, type of ems, tune, fuel...stock gasket coudl be ok.....and i suggested he uses hr studs in my 1st post...
either way, as far as pricing, id save on going with eagle rods...id save on going with wiseco pistons..... as far as gasket, i guess depending on who puts engine together, type of ems, tune, fuel...stock gasket coudl be ok.....and i suggested he uses hr studs in my 1st post...
10-07-2009, 05:45 PM
#33
Still getting a feel for this setup 
, but I spoke to Dave the other day about where we want the car to be and timeline for things to happen. Let's just say I wil be prepared for the airstrip next year and intend to find out where my setup maxes out.
BTW, if anyone knows where I can find an APS Extreme intercooler, please let me know
, all part of the final stage.
, but I spoke to Dave the other day about where we want the car to be and timeline for things to happen. Let's just say I wil be prepared for the airstrip next year and intend to find out where my setup maxes out.BTW, if anyone knows where I can find an APS Extreme intercooler, please let me know
, all part of the final stage.
10-08-2009, 05:48 AM
#35
let's take this in another direction..... if the few hundred bucks it takes to get head gaskets and L19's are going to cost too much; the OP doesn't have deep enough pockets to boost his car in the first place. And if he does have enough money he is just looking for places to be cheap
ive alewady bought
dw 660 injector
hks boost gauge
aem wideband
strup testpipes
utec
map sensor
stage 3 clutch
txs boost controller
fuel pump 255
pistons wiseco
rods eagle
greddy tt kit
greddy oil catch can
ACL main rod thrust washer bearings
so u tell me can shallow pockets buy those. but thats not the point. my point was just to get more data and proof of using HR/DE headgaskets and arp std headstud for a max of 500whp. If you actually search, that only data that is present is from 2006!!! it is now 2010 just about. so things change over time like the belief we once needed Darton Sleeves to hit 500whp??? (thats $1500 alot of people could have saved, but thanks to ppl being misinformed some ppl suffered ask alberto)
So BAsically ill ask again ARE THE STANDARD (non-l19 and non 1/2 stds) good for 500whp with a stock HR head gasket.
10-08-2009, 09:13 AM
#37
We already told you. Its your money and your risk to take. There's no other data besides JOeK's car.
If you arent trying to impress anyone, then why bother with the laundry list of mods?
If you arent trying to impress anyone, then why bother with the laundry list of mods?
NO, my pockest arent deep nor shallow, i guess ppl just assume, being that im 21, having to pay for school tution, and gas and other crap... im not goin lie and say OH MY POCKETS deep. i have no one on here to impress. however by pockets arent shallow niether.
ive alewady bought
dw 660 injector
hks boost gauge
aem wideband
strup testpipes
utec
map sensor
stage 3 clutch
txs boost controller
fuel pump 255
pistons wiseco
rods eagle
greddy tt kit
greddy oil catch can
ACL main rod thrust washer bearings
so u tell me can shallow pockets buy those. but thats not the point. my point was just to get more data and proof of using HR/DE headgaskets and arp std headstud for a max of 500whp. If you actually search, that only data that is present is from 2006!!! it is now 2010 just about. so things change over time like the belief we once needed Darton Sleeves to hit 500whp??? (thats $1500 alot of people could have saved, but thanks to ppl being misinformed some ppl suffered ask alberto)
So BAsically ill ask again ARE THE STANDARD (non-l19 and non 1/2 stds) good for 500whp with a stock HR head gasket.
ive alewady bought
dw 660 injector
hks boost gauge
aem wideband
strup testpipes
utec
map sensor
stage 3 clutch
txs boost controller
fuel pump 255
pistons wiseco
rods eagle
greddy tt kit
greddy oil catch can
ACL main rod thrust washer bearings
so u tell me can shallow pockets buy those. but thats not the point. my point was just to get more data and proof of using HR/DE headgaskets and arp std headstud for a max of 500whp. If you actually search, that only data that is present is from 2006!!! it is now 2010 just about. so things change over time like the belief we once needed Darton Sleeves to hit 500whp??? (thats $1500 alot of people could have saved, but thanks to ppl being misinformed some ppl suffered ask alberto)
So BAsically ill ask again ARE THE STANDARD (non-l19 and non 1/2 stds) good for 500whp with a stock HR head gasket.
10-08-2009, 11:34 PM
#38
Intense's widebody G35 has standard L17 ARP studs and an OEM DE headgasket. It has experienced multiple 800+whp dyno pulls including 906whp back in 2007. It subsequently was driven regularly on the street at 530whp and did numerous 1/4 mile passes at 700+whp. The car never experienced any headlift or any problems related to the headstuds or headgasket.
That being said... Jorge (IIQuickSilverII) and I are using L19 headstuds on our builds.
10-09-2009, 06:21 PM
#39
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i have L17's and cometic HGs............551whp @ 600wtq w/ 17psi of boost............i have 30,000miles and over 160 dyno pulls on my engine and no headlift problems yet........fingers crossed
