G3po

iTrader: (8)

12sec, yes i am a WI advocate, but I don't think this is what I was recommending on this thread. Nor do I think it's for everyone. I understand that you are , at least at this time a little burned or burnt out on experimentation and spending extra cash. But raising your boost (say to 9psi) etc. is yet another potential unknown and hence is experimentation in itself. So it really does sound like you are still willing to experiment?

The fundamental issue you will run into first , especially in Ca. is the 91 pump. This in itself will limit how far you can push this engine with factory internals and still get gain and limit detonation. Now in your situation you seem to run regularly at the 1/4 mile track. One sure way to get better an consistent track results is to use the UL track gas and tune specifically for that.

However; the factory ECU does not have a dual map capablity nor will TS ever be able to tune it ideally for both street and track use with the same re-flash. If you ever want to easily leverage better gas or the effects of better octane, a piggy back method would allow you to play this hand.

I would never recommend that you get TS to un-do all de-timng mods unless you already have installed a piggyback unit such as J&S, especially if you up the boost to 9psi.

I am just trying to give you a little input so that you can better "measure twice and cut once", hopefully maximizing your results at less cost and headache.

GaryK

I'm not harrassing you, I'm answering your posts. And I'm not following you around...I've been involved in these posts before this little spat started. Now like I said, I'm going to comment on your post so you might have a better understanding of what G3po posted. I'm trying to word it so that you can understand...feel free to ask questions if you still need clarification.


First of all, what did you mean by "WI"?

Second, you claim that you don't want to experiment. Yet you stated in the same post that you want to up the boost and get 400 rwhp. That's a bit of a contradiction, because nobody has really proven how reliable/durable this car and engine will be at that power level. If you don't want to take chances, you'd be better off running at your current power level for a while. Just an honest piece of advice. You're already trying to push the limits and you say yourself that you don't want to experiment.

Third, G3po was referencing the amount of timing retard in the ecu flash. With the ecu flash as the only solution there is no piggy back timing control, and no way to control timing based on boost, so the maps would have to be severely retarded to keep a good safety margin. Doing it this way will hurt your off boost and midrange power. If you were planning to add the J&S, it is being suggested that you might want to pull less timing out with the ecu and let the J&S do its thing based on boost. You would probably have a faster car because your midrange power is likely going to be higher (more area under the curve). In addition, the J&S should do a better job of timing control when knock is detected IMHO, so you could stand a better chance of avoiding any damage when something is off, for example a bad tank of gas.

on edit: I guess G3po typed a reply before I did...oops.

12SecZ

G3po,

It my sound like an expierment to you but there are 4 cars running 9 lb pullies and other cars that have went over 400whp.
It's been done already. I retirate over and over that I am not gonna go redline or hammer it at the track, it's for more torque and HP. I'm following your posts on 3 boards and trying to understand and make use of them and apreciate the info just so you know.

So, I understand what you are saying on the pump gas and I mentioned WI because I read all your threads on it on several boards. This isn't the only board I post to and I know you almost always turn it around to WI so we I was just letting you know from the beginning it was not part of my plans. So we didn't have to discuss it. It's sad that all these other kits are coming out and this kit I have people are running it overly rich or staying under 4k rpm's etc etc. Come on lighten up man you have to admit that is kinda sad to drop 5k and find out you need all of these other things like a timing box etc etc after the fact! AnywayZ I am gonna do my thing the way others have already sucessfully done it w/o issues and just keep it to myself, it's starting to get personal here like it almost always does where people start harrasing you so I will read your posts in lurk mode. Thanks.

over-Zealous1

i have only made it through the first 6 pages of this posting so i'm not sure where i'm jumping in but here goes.
i don't have much experience with import cars [the main reason i got the Z] but alot of experience with motors.
the Zs motor is already pushing almost 83hp per liter. my vette with a 383 is pushing about 86 hp per liter. thats 550hp!!! i'm on my 3rd 383 in 3000 miles and have broken every part from pistons to rocker arm studs. thats telling me the Zs motor is already pretty high strung from the factory and am amazed at the drivability compared to the vette that needs vacuum canister for the brakes and literally shakes the earth at idle!!!
after seeing the ATI kit my first question was what is the comp ratio of the Zs motor. at finding out it was 10.3, i knew the kit would be on the hairline of detonation even with the intercooler and effiecient compressor.
anyone expecting to run this kit and run it that close to the ragged edge either better know what their doing or have alot of luck. i personally don't have any luck so i like to play it a little safer and if this kit goes under my hood it is for sure going to be with lower comp pistons. well worth the money spent and then you would have a little room to get more boost and and power and be able to get away with small imperfections with the tuning.
i understand where some guys are pissed that there motors are getting fried, but i don't think all the blame should go to ATI because it was there kit. them probably trying to be the first on the block and not doing and not doing suffiecent testing to find a combo that would be a little more forgiving on the detonation would have ultimatly been better for everyone.
i'm sure that there testing gave the results they were looking for and spent more time tuning and getting a perfect combo in there car than any of the installs talked about here.
i think there combo is just a little to close to detonation and doesnt leave any margin of error for uneducated installers. maybe they should of had more info in the install guide.
i personally think if someone is trying to get a significent power increase out of there motor in a bolt on kit of any kind had better do alot more research than just how much it will cost and and how much horse power it will create.
even n2o kits don't include all the stuff in them to make them safer to use and nothing is in the instructions to explain about the need for timing mods or correct gauges or purge valves correct areas for proper distribution etc.......
getting 120-125 hp per liter on a stock motor is something that needs to be planned to the T if expected to have drivability and reliablity.
ive eaten to many motors to count and all went because of stupid mistakes or improper planning.
just one thing to remember THE MORE YOU MODIFY A CAR, THE MORE MONEY YOU HAVE TO SPEND ON IT TO KEEP IT RUNNING. if anything is true that staterment is, so if you want it to be reliable then keep it stock, want more power, have deep pockets and enough will to accept mistakes and parts breakage!!!!!

elektrik_juggernaut

or buy a product that has had better R&D.......like Vortech, Greddy, , PE, Stillen......the more money they spend, the less money i'll have to

GaryK

Very, very true. Word to live by when it comes to modifying cars.

I have a vette with a 383 too...only about 75hp per liter though

G3po

iTrader: (8)

For those tuners in Ca. , it is important to note that Ca. pump gas is quite inferior in knock ratineg @91 thans the 93/94 that can be had on the east cost. 2 points means alot when you are close to the ragged edge. Just a note of caution, it is really a good idea to have some visual from of knock detection , especially on a high compression , boosted car in Cali. I have used the MSD knock alert to great success. It has made things very obvious even from station to station , without this sensitive form of indication I would have fryed a piston a long time back. MSD is adequate and the J&S seems a better choice if oyu got the $$$. Witout these tools , one bad tank of gas can prove fatal.

Neither ATI or Vortech or you tuner is going to guarantee a stable operation against bad pump gas. Gdd forbid you accidentally pop a tank of 87 in your bad boy.

12SecZ

I can't argue with that.

I only run Premium Nascar 91 from Union 76.

Ever heard of Outlaw Octane Booster? I use it, seems to work good. You get 4 canisters for 10 bucks so that is 4 tanks.
I should also say that when a product (STP, NOS etc says it adds 4-7 points it is not saying 4 full pints but only 4 tenths, just in case someone didn't know that. I didn't until someone told me so passing it along.

elektrik_juggernaut

Good advice.......i put only big name, big octane(as big as we have here) in my precious

G3po

iTrader: (8)

I always keep a can of NOS (red can) in my glove box.
It's expensive ($12 per tank , but adds a real ~1.7pts as opposed to the heavily marketed hype juices such as outlaw. Good enough to pull up the octane on a hot day with a winter formulation. But even with the really good NOS brand , it's not even close to pushing 87 into the 90s. If I ever got an 87 tank full ,I have a valet switch on my truck which allows be to 100% bypass the blower and guarantee safe operation. A "valet" switch would also be a nice addition to an ATI or Vortech setup. But for it to work properly, the FMU/ECU must be able to compensate A/F WRT sensed boost.

12SecZ

1.7 is real good, I'll look for it.

elektrik_juggernaut

Hello?........ATI?......Are you still in here?.........i feel we need another "technical notice" to explain why you pulled your entire forum off of superchargersonline.com

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

If it was superchargersonline's forum then THEY pulled it off, not ATI. I'm not saying that they didn't get a little "encouragement" from ATI though.

JeffesonM

I'm not a Z driver, I drive a maxima. A lot of the maxima guys that have been going turbo have run into similar issues with the several different kits that have been developed.

My advice is... get the J&S Safeguard. It goes a long way in preventing detonation and if you're already dropping $5000+ on a F/I setup, I would think the extra peace of mind that your $30,000 car and $5,000 SC is well protected is worth another $500.

elektrik_juggernaut

You got that right Bonzy

Here's the Scoop

Black LS1 T/A

I just stepped into this thread and haven't read it all.
But, I want to jump in on this spark plug issue right away.

You guys had better take ATI's recommendations seriously and not cut corners.

Platinum tipped plugs (which come in our LS1 cars stock) are fine as long as you're not running a supercharger/turbo/nitrous because the tips get hot and stay hot. However, this characteristic can lead to pre-ignition.

Detonation is the BIG, BIG enemy of Forced Induction. If you are running platinum plugs on your supercharged application, you are courting danger. It MAY actually account for some peoples detonation in the in the upper RPM range.

You need COLDER, copper plugs if you are running a blower.

Again, temper this with the fact I am speaking from the LS1 world. But, if ATI recommends it, it is for a reason. And I KNOW the reason from our LS1s' perspective.

Forced

I agree, platinum plugs are for mileage, not performance.

BlownG

I thought platinum plugs had a problem with the electrode separating and that is why they shouldn't be used in FI applications. Iridium and copper plugs are widely used for FI. The heat range is the most important factor, with FI you must use at the minimum one step cooler plug than stock. My understanding is that iridium plugs resist fouling better than copper (for rich A/F of FI), require less energy to spark, and will last longer than copper.

Any thoughts on iridium vs. copper would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

BlownG

12SecZ

RB Motoring has a faq on their web page about ceramic cracking with Irradiums on their Skylines.

http://www.powerenterpriseusa.com/mods.html

It's around that site somewhere. I agree about the cooler plugs though. Copper is just proven I guess and Irradium is newer.

Found it

"1) Spark Plugs. Recommended stocks are PFR6A-11. One heat range cooler is a PFR7A-11. You may want to tighen the plug gap up if you are going to up the boost. Stock gaps on these plugs are 1.1mm which is pretty wide for a spark plug. Iridiums work well. They are expensive but they work well. We have had a problem with the Denso iridium plugs breaking the ceramic around the electrode. With the NGK's we havent had a problem. We run #8 plugs in our drag car. "

He referenced Denso. not Irradium in general, knew I had read something about it and Victor Reyes knows his ****!

Black LS1 T/A

I use NGK TR6's... a lot of us LS1'ers do. And we gap VERY close... so far I've counted a gap of .031 (31 thousands) to .039 for the FI guys. Our typical N/A gapping is .060 (60 thousandths).