rev up intake, ported pics...
10-30-2013, 10:05 PM
#61
The Cosworth intake manifold is the only mod that allowed me to shift redline to the right. I have the dynos to prove it in my NA build thread and I compare Sasha, Z1, 1cockyz, and a few other dynos as well. I have JWT C8R cams in my car and that still did not shift the power and, just increased peak. I had Megan long tubes, then switch to SG headers.
Explain.
Explain.
10-30-2013, 10:11 PM
#62
the cosworth helps but not much from what ive seen, and honestly not worth it imo for the price when the SFR does a way better job for only a little bit more. the big disadvantage on it is still the runners are kind of long and the plenum volume is still tiny.
the cosworth though is still designed to help some without sacrificing the throttle response a much larger plenum would cause, although help much much more in shifting the power band. ive right shifted mine some shortening the runners on a rev up lower but i cant tell exactly how much since i moved to 1.32 AR turbine housing at the same time and im judging based on fuel usage i need to get on a dyno for the exact curve to compare to last setup since its got a quick spool now also that should mitigate most if not all the shifting that happened from the larger turbine housing.
plenum volume is the big thing the SFR has that helps it out in the single TB intake, combo of much larger plenum and dual TB allowing the plenums to fill quicker on the expensive one. thats a big thing if you could fit a much larger TB on the stock plenum the size of the plenum wouldnt be as large of a factor.
also what tuning did you do on the cams? that can have huge effects.
the cosworth though is still designed to help some without sacrificing the throttle response a much larger plenum would cause, although help much much more in shifting the power band. ive right shifted mine some shortening the runners on a rev up lower but i cant tell exactly how much since i moved to 1.32 AR turbine housing at the same time and im judging based on fuel usage i need to get on a dyno for the exact curve to compare to last setup since its got a quick spool now also that should mitigate most if not all the shifting that happened from the larger turbine housing.
plenum volume is the big thing the SFR has that helps it out in the single TB intake, combo of much larger plenum and dual TB allowing the plenums to fill quicker on the expensive one. thats a big thing if you could fit a much larger TB on the stock plenum the size of the plenum wouldnt be as large of a factor.
also what tuning did you do on the cams? that can have huge effects.
The Cosworth intake manifold is the only mod that allowed me to shift redline to the right. I have the dynos to prove it in my NA build thread and I compare Sasha, Z1, 1cockyz, and a few other dynos as well. I have JWT C8R cams in my car and that still did not shift the power and, just increased peak. I had Megan long tubes, then switch to SG headers.
Explain.
Explain.
Last edited by jerryd87; 10-30-2013 at 10:16 PM.
10-31-2013, 04:58 AM
#63
My question is: what does it take electrically speaking to wire up a second throttle body onto the factory harness all the while staying with the OEM ECU? Is it not possible to mirror the ECUs signal to the throttle body into a second wire connector? Or perhaps is it possible to mechanically modify one throttle body to incorporate a wire to pull open a second throttle body at the same rate. And could the MAF signal be doubled to trick the computer into seeing more accurate airflow readings (assuming both throttle bodies get the same airflow from identical piping and symmetrical intake location). Or could a second MAF be incorporated somehow into working with the factory ECU?
If someone could figure this out, it would make all this other nonsense worthless. The entire community could just go find totaled 370z and g37 platforms to strip their plenum. Or even modify GTR plenums to fit.
Also, saw this thread, and I see it only opens at WOT, but don't understand how this would work with our ECUs, and if it would be safe/tunable? Wouldn't want to lean out the engine and kill it.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125305.html
I remember the video with the plenum pulled open, and they had that giant sheet metal testing plenum. Can we not just fabricate an upper plenum to fit something like this which would open only at/near WOT? How would this unmetered air be accounted for?
If impossible/impractical with the OEM ECU, what standalone would be best suited to manage an additional throttle body & MAF sensor? Haltech? Motec? Also if going with either standalone, do you lose cruise control (would be nice to retain all functionality)?
If someone could figure this out, it would make all this other nonsense worthless. The entire community could just go find totaled 370z and g37 platforms to strip their plenum. Or even modify GTR plenums to fit.
Also, saw this thread, and I see it only opens at WOT, but don't understand how this would work with our ECUs, and if it would be safe/tunable? Wouldn't want to lean out the engine and kill it.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125305.html
I remember the video with the plenum pulled open, and they had that giant sheet metal testing plenum. Can we not just fabricate an upper plenum to fit something like this which would open only at/near WOT? How would this unmetered air be accounted for?
If impossible/impractical with the OEM ECU, what standalone would be best suited to manage an additional throttle body & MAF sensor? Haltech? Motec? Also if going with either standalone, do you lose cruise control (would be nice to retain all functionality)?
Last edited by mcarther101; 10-31-2013 at 05:20 AM.
10-31-2013, 05:29 AM
#64
your the one who came in all pissed off about the arguement going on, what i find funny is how people seem to think they can determine a person is "mad" by reading text. good luck with that one i havnt been mad at any part of this entire thread.
so you know ONE of the people ive helped and you think thats the only person ive helped? please quit being so full of yourself ive helped enough that i dont even have a clue who your talking about because i cant think of ANYONE in the past few weeks ive suggested 272 cams to for one.
two there really isnt any intake for the platform unless you get in the 1500+ range(SFR single TB intake one of the cheapest) that REALLY helps higher rpm drop off, have to counter that with boost so good job trying to troll and start another argument with a retarded comment.
nope but considering ive got more miles then alot of people who had there engines built by "professional", and i use the term lightly, shops not only that but more miles then SEVERAL of those people's engines combined, plus the fact that in my lifetime ive got a few HUNDRED if not close to 500 engine builds between performance and stock does make me a expert. thats full out builds too not refresh's or something where we said F it and swapped pistons and rods or just rods and reamed the cylinder or did a quick cheapo drill hone depending what the goal was for the engine.
welcome to the world if you can handle people being a dick stay off the internet and dont leave your house plain and simple that's the way of the world. who gave YOU the right to say i cannot treat people like that? they dont like me for it i could care less mayby they should educate themselves before trying to jump into a conversation with someone who actually knows wtf they are talking about.
also sounds more like your trying to hide behind a excuse with your completely inaccurate f1 engine comment. f1, championship engine, or your street vq they all work on the EXACT same principles you do something to screw it up like porting the intake too smooth its going to behave the same way, the fuel isnt going to mix properly, the engine isnt going to run as well as it should, and the individual who did it looks like a jiffy lube oil changer who shouldnt be allowed any wrench except what it takes to change the oil, and even then only with supervision.
so you know ONE of the people ive helped and you think thats the only person ive helped? please quit being so full of yourself ive helped enough that i dont even have a clue who your talking about because i cant think of ANYONE in the past few weeks ive suggested 272 cams to for one.
two there really isnt any intake for the platform unless you get in the 1500+ range(SFR single TB intake one of the cheapest) that REALLY helps higher rpm drop off, have to counter that with boost so good job trying to troll and start another argument with a retarded comment.
nope but considering ive got more miles then alot of people who had there engines built by "professional", and i use the term lightly, shops not only that but more miles then SEVERAL of those people's engines combined, plus the fact that in my lifetime ive got a few HUNDRED if not close to 500 engine builds between performance and stock does make me a expert. thats full out builds too not refresh's or something where we said F it and swapped pistons and rods or just rods and reamed the cylinder or did a quick cheapo drill hone depending what the goal was for the engine.
welcome to the world if you can handle people being a dick stay off the internet and dont leave your house plain and simple that's the way of the world. who gave YOU the right to say i cannot treat people like that? they dont like me for it i could care less mayby they should educate themselves before trying to jump into a conversation with someone who actually knows wtf they are talking about.
also sounds more like your trying to hide behind a excuse with your completely inaccurate f1 engine comment. f1, championship engine, or your street vq they all work on the EXACT same principles you do something to screw it up like porting the intake too smooth its going to behave the same way, the fuel isnt going to mix properly, the engine isnt going to run as well as it should, and the individual who did it looks like a jiffy lube oil changer who shouldnt be allowed any wrench except what it takes to change the oil, and even then only with supervision.
I actually do applaud you and what appears to be an extensive background in the world of performance automotives and engine building. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't cool. I still do, however, stand by the fact that I do have the right to call you out on how you're treating people. Be it the internet or any other means of electronic or face to face communication. Sure you have the right to treat others how you'd like, but there's consequences for everything. The internet is a safe place and that's probably why your responses are they way they are. In my opinion, with the level of knowledge you have you'd be much better served constructing your arguments and thoughts in a much more professional stance. I have no doubt people will continue to reach out to you for your advice, I just hope you'll re-think the way you approach it sometimes.
Last edited by RENFRO; 10-31-2013 at 05:31 AM.
10-31-2013, 05:15 PM
#65
i can assure you its not just the internet or any internet tough guy act. just ask travis aka IdriveaG35 since he knows me in real life and im building hit TT g35 for him. i dont believe in PC, if a person is making stupid comments or is grossly incorrect i call them out on it. hell i think one of my favorite terms is to ask someone if they are really as stupid as the **** they say.
its simply me, its something that has been discussed before with a couple of my company XO's in fact that i have pretty much zero tolerance for people of below average intelligence and very little for even average people. in fact ive even had psychologist appointments where we have discussed how unfair that is since they where born that way no different with how my body physically breaks down when i try to push it with pretty significant injurys. dosnt change the fact i dont have patience for them and likely never will though. i have no problem being a statistic with the whole "higher IQ people have difficulty in social settings" thing.
its simply me, its something that has been discussed before with a couple of my company XO's in fact that i have pretty much zero tolerance for people of below average intelligence and very little for even average people. in fact ive even had psychologist appointments where we have discussed how unfair that is since they where born that way no different with how my body physically breaks down when i try to push it with pretty significant injurys. dosnt change the fact i dont have patience for them and likely never will though. i have no problem being a statistic with the whole "higher IQ people have difficulty in social settings" thing.
Well, Jerry I never actually came in here mad and I'm still not. I'm also not attempting to troll anything, mainly due to the fact that I agree with you on most of the items you've highlighted. Even the ones to include this most recent topic of resolutions to solve power drop off before redline. I can handle people like you on the internet just fine, which I have done. You've openly stated your opinions in long responses with degrading and condescending verbage. Others will read this thread and make up their own minds, and that's perfectly fine.
I actually do applaud you and what appears to be an extensive background in the world of performance automotives and engine building. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't cool. I still do, however, stand by the fact that I do have the right to call you out on how you're treating people. Be it the internet or any other means of electronic or face to face communication. Sure you have the right to treat others how you'd like, but there's consequences for everything. The internet is a safe place and that's probably why your responses are they way they are. In my opinion, with the level of knowledge you have you'd be much better served constructing your arguments and thoughts in a much more professional stance. I have no doubt people will continue to reach out to you for your advice, I just hope you'll re-think the way you approach it sometimes.
I actually do applaud you and what appears to be an extensive background in the world of performance automotives and engine building. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't cool. I still do, however, stand by the fact that I do have the right to call you out on how you're treating people. Be it the internet or any other means of electronic or face to face communication. Sure you have the right to treat others how you'd like, but there's consequences for everything. The internet is a safe place and that's probably why your responses are they way they are. In my opinion, with the level of knowledge you have you'd be much better served constructing your arguments and thoughts in a much more professional stance. I have no doubt people will continue to reach out to you for your advice, I just hope you'll re-think the way you approach it sometimes.
10-31-2013, 05:31 PM
#66
well we discussed it pretty heavily online, the big thing is going to have to measure the amperage draw on one during opening and closing and find a stepper motor driver that fits the bill. thing is you need to do extensive testing and not cheap out since if it fails in the wrong way you have a incident like toyota had with the car flooring itself or continuing to accelerate after the pedal is released.
whatever you do you need two additional drivers to get it done correctly since tapping into the existing wires and just running one extra driver will cause increased noise and they will open at different speeds(similar to how not having twisted wire pairs on a knock sensor can cause noise that makes the ecu think the engine is knocking when its not.)
maf wise as long as you have a single tube feeding both TB's(much larger to account for the extra airflow) then you can simply run the sensor pre TB like alot of cars do and adjust in the osiris to account for the larger tube.
the reason they are doing WOT only is because of throttle response, dual TB will act just like a bigger TB it allows more top end but then it slows velocity and hurts response and mayby if WAY to much TB, hurt low end power. its also alot easier to simply have a 3 relay system using one to power the other two with NC pole powering the close and the NO powering the open simply providing 12V so its like a on/off switch with a WOT switch to power the selector relay. a stepper motor driver is far more complex, requires calibration and software uploaded. you would definitely need a split after the MAF sensor to feed something like that though so the air is metered.
as far as aftermarket ecu's i know syvecs will do it but not a ton of support in the states, some motec units will do it, the infinity with the advanced tuning package does it and i still think the ATP is free with purchase for the time being. i havnt looked too much at the pro efi or haltech if they did it, the extra driver on the infinity was just a bonus thing for me. cruise im not sure on since i never had cruise to start with i can mayby email sam about the infinity but it is still the new kid on the block so people are still a bit weary of it.
whatever you do you need two additional drivers to get it done correctly since tapping into the existing wires and just running one extra driver will cause increased noise and they will open at different speeds(similar to how not having twisted wire pairs on a knock sensor can cause noise that makes the ecu think the engine is knocking when its not.)
maf wise as long as you have a single tube feeding both TB's(much larger to account for the extra airflow) then you can simply run the sensor pre TB like alot of cars do and adjust in the osiris to account for the larger tube.
the reason they are doing WOT only is because of throttle response, dual TB will act just like a bigger TB it allows more top end but then it slows velocity and hurts response and mayby if WAY to much TB, hurt low end power. its also alot easier to simply have a 3 relay system using one to power the other two with NC pole powering the close and the NO powering the open simply providing 12V so its like a on/off switch with a WOT switch to power the selector relay. a stepper motor driver is far more complex, requires calibration and software uploaded. you would definitely need a split after the MAF sensor to feed something like that though so the air is metered.
as far as aftermarket ecu's i know syvecs will do it but not a ton of support in the states, some motec units will do it, the infinity with the advanced tuning package does it and i still think the ATP is free with purchase for the time being. i havnt looked too much at the pro efi or haltech if they did it, the extra driver on the infinity was just a bonus thing for me. cruise im not sure on since i never had cruise to start with i can mayby email sam about the infinity but it is still the new kid on the block so people are still a bit weary of it.
My question is: what does it take electrically speaking to wire up a second throttle body onto the factory harness all the while staying with the OEM ECU? Is it not possible to mirror the ECUs signal to the throttle body into a second wire connector? Or perhaps is it possible to mechanically modify one throttle body to incorporate a wire to pull open a second throttle body at the same rate. And could the MAF signal be doubled to trick the computer into seeing more accurate airflow readings (assuming both throttle bodies get the same airflow from identical piping and symmetrical intake location). Or could a second MAF be incorporated somehow into working with the factory ECU?
If someone could figure this out, it would make all this other nonsense worthless. The entire community could just go find totaled 370z and g37 platforms to strip their plenum. Or even modify GTR plenums to fit.
Also, saw this thread, and I see it only opens at WOT, but don't understand how this would work with our ECUs, and if it would be safe/tunable? Wouldn't want to lean out the engine and kill it.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125305.html
I remember the video with the plenum pulled open, and they had that giant sheet metal testing plenum. Can we not just fabricate an upper plenum to fit something like this which would open only at/near WOT? How would this unmetered air be accounted for?
If impossible/impractical with the OEM ECU, what standalone would be best suited to manage an additional throttle body & MAF sensor? Haltech? Motec? Also if going with either standalone, do you lose cruise control (would be nice to retain all functionality)?
If someone could figure this out, it would make all this other nonsense worthless. The entire community could just go find totaled 370z and g37 platforms to strip their plenum. Or even modify GTR plenums to fit.
Also, saw this thread, and I see it only opens at WOT, but don't understand how this would work with our ECUs, and if it would be safe/tunable? Wouldn't want to lean out the engine and kill it.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125305.html
I remember the video with the plenum pulled open, and they had that giant sheet metal testing plenum. Can we not just fabricate an upper plenum to fit something like this which would open only at/near WOT? How would this unmetered air be accounted for?
If impossible/impractical with the OEM ECU, what standalone would be best suited to manage an additional throttle body & MAF sensor? Haltech? Motec? Also if going with either standalone, do you lose cruise control (would be nice to retain all functionality)?
10-31-2013, 07:10 PM
#67
Laminar flow
GOD, are ALL the threads turning into pissing matches?? LOl... I can't comment on much but jerry was right about "laminar flow"...It is the same principle at work inside a patients endotracheal tube/anesthesia breathing circuit...the layer next to the hard surface provides "air suspension" of sorts so that the air ON TOP of that layer, flows better......kinda like a buffer zone to keep the turbulence contained and not influencing the main air flow...Don't know about fuel in suspension, where it is etc etc...Tim at SFR does a dual TB on the 350, along with a plenum for the person asking earlier...Don't know the specifics but he's a call away...(c-website speedforceracing.com).
http://www.speedforceracing.com/index.php?productID=849
http://www.speedforceracing.com/index.php?productID=849
11-01-2013, 05:16 PM
#68
well we discussed it pretty heavily online, the big thing is going to have to measure the amperage draw on one during opening and closing and find a stepper motor driver that fits the bill. thing is you need to do extensive testing and not cheap out since if it fails in the wrong way you have a incident like toyota had with the car flooring itself or continuing to accelerate after the pedal is released. whatever you do you need two additional drivers to get it done correctly since tapping into the existing wires and just running one extra driver will cause increased noise and they will open at different speeds(similar to how not having twisted wire pairs on a knock sensor can cause noise that makes the ecu think the engine is knocking when its not.) maf wise as long as you have a single tube feeding both TB's(much larger to account for the extra airflow) then you can simply run the sensor pre TB like alot of cars do and adjust in the osiris to account for the larger tube. the reason they are doing WOT only is because of throttle response, dual TB will act just like a bigger TB it allows more top end but then it slows velocity and hurts response and mayby if WAY to much TB, hurt low end power. its also alot easier to simply have a 3 relay system using one to power the other two with NC pole powering the close and the NO powering the open simply providing 12V so its like a on/off switch with a WOT switch to power the selector relay. a stepper motor driver is far more complex, requires calibration and software uploaded. you would definitely need a split after the MAF sensor to feed something like that though so the air is metered. as far as aftermarket ecu's i know syvecs will do it but not a ton of support in the states, some motec units will do it, the infinity with the advanced tuning package does it and i still think the ATP is free with purchase for the time being. i havnt looked too much at the pro efi or haltech if they did it, the extra driver on the infinity was just a bonus thing for me. cruise im not sure on since i never had cruise to start with i can mayby email sam about the infinity but it is still the new kid on the block so people are still a bit weary of it.
Last edited by mcarther101; 11-01-2013 at 05:22 PM.
11-02-2013, 03:25 PM
#69
no you cant trying to route that cable would require a very elaborate pulley system, it would also increase the amprage you are using on the TB and could pop the internal fuse on the ecu. you could try a cable on the pedal but you are going to need to figure out the mounting option and also getting the opening rate perfect.
I didn't consider merging the two pipes again, that simplifies things. As for the extra TB, couldn't I just add a pulley with a throttle cable on the same axis of rotation as the throttle plate of the electrically operated TB, and then run that throttle cable to a traditional throttle body with an equally sized pulley? One drive by wire, the other driven mechanically by the first sort of like a mechanical daisy chain? I'm sure it would be a PITA, but would be much simpler to design I think, and would retain OEM ECU functionality since the ECU wouldn't ever see the second throttle body.
11-02-2013, 05:13 PM
#70
no you cant trying to route that cable would require a very elaborate pulley system, it would also increase the amprage you are using on the TB and could pop the internal fuse on the ecu. you could try a cable on the pedal but you are going to need to figure out the mounting option and also getting the opening rate perfect.
Where can I find specifications on this fuse in the FSM? Does the FSM break down a throttle body in detail? I was thinking it would be fun to pick up a used OEM one and play around with the idea.
11-02-2013, 10:38 PM
#71
yes it could, that OR it will cause the stepper motor to over heat and start skipping steps which means the ecu will not open completely, then since the ecu wont be fully opened it will keep trying to close it upon close signals. over all the TB will be completely out of whack.
yes the fuse is literally inside the ecu, it can be repaired but you need a hot air station and disassembly of the ECU since it is soldered to the board.
you would be suprised of the load changes, the amperage needed to slide my x carriage on my stepper motor vs the extruder i cant tell the difference in force at all yet my extruder requires 30% more amperage.
the force has only very minor effects from airflow, its all in the actual movement and friction, these things dont use bearings they use bushings. there is also a spring inside that is a failsafe that the motor has to work against. the increased force would also cause missed steps in the TB also doing what i said above causing major issues.
its not a linear increase when working with stepper motors the amperage needed per force increases exponentially. definitely not safe the voltages in use in the board are VERY specific, the traces cant support much more then what the fuse can, remember those traces are smaller then any wire you will find in the car, doing that(if you spent $200 on a hot air station) will destroy the ecu at a minimum.
no it dosnt you just have to mess with it, the fsm also dosnt have the fuse because there is no service procedure for the ecu, mess up something in it the repair procedure is simply replace it since those parts are tiny and designed to be placed on a board by a robot.
put it this way dude for the price JUST in tools you would be better off buying the SFR box. if their was a easier way SFR would be doing it since their intake is already custom and they have ALOT tied up in research into the subject. also their is a reason that any ecu that can support multiple throttle body's has a desperate h bridge and driver for EACH TB it can drive. i get your trying to get it done on the cheap, problem is their is no cheap way to do it period thats why jake left the conversation on the subject and he is a electrical engineer and knows that portion of things better then any of us.
yes the fuse is literally inside the ecu, it can be repaired but you need a hot air station and disassembly of the ECU since it is soldered to the board.
you would be suprised of the load changes, the amperage needed to slide my x carriage on my stepper motor vs the extruder i cant tell the difference in force at all yet my extruder requires 30% more amperage.
the force has only very minor effects from airflow, its all in the actual movement and friction, these things dont use bearings they use bushings. there is also a spring inside that is a failsafe that the motor has to work against. the increased force would also cause missed steps in the TB also doing what i said above causing major issues.
its not a linear increase when working with stepper motors the amperage needed per force increases exponentially. definitely not safe the voltages in use in the board are VERY specific, the traces cant support much more then what the fuse can, remember those traces are smaller then any wire you will find in the car, doing that(if you spent $200 on a hot air station) will destroy the ecu at a minimum.
no it dosnt you just have to mess with it, the fsm also dosnt have the fuse because there is no service procedure for the ecu, mess up something in it the repair procedure is simply replace it since those parts are tiny and designed to be placed on a board by a robot.
put it this way dude for the price JUST in tools you would be better off buying the SFR box. if their was a easier way SFR would be doing it since their intake is already custom and they have ALOT tied up in research into the subject. also their is a reason that any ecu that can support multiple throttle body's has a desperate h bridge and driver for EACH TB it can drive. i get your trying to get it done on the cheap, problem is their is no cheap way to do it period thats why jake left the conversation on the subject and he is a electrical engineer and knows that portion of things better then any of us.
Would the electric motor moving twice the mass really increase the amperage enough to pop the fuse? Where is this fuse, literally inside the ECU? Inaccessible/ irreplaceable without dissasembly? I just thought the motor that actuates the throttle body would see a marginal increase in load from the very small mass of an extra throttle plate (just looking at a throttle plate, it looks like it has such a small amount of force acting on it, and that force would be distributed among both throttle bodies since the airflow would now be split between two TBs I would think. I understand the pulley system would need to be elaborate. Also, boosted cars push much more airflow and force onto the throttle plate working against that motor, so why would this added stress of a second throttle plate w/ pulley system draw that much more amps? I just don't get why it would be too much? Would it be safe to replace that fuse with a higher amperage one without causing risk of heat/melting damage or electrical fire?
Where can I find specifications on this fuse in the FSM? Does the FSM break down a throttle body in detail? I was thinking it would be fun to pick up a used OEM one and play around with the idea.
Where can I find specifications on this fuse in the FSM? Does the FSM break down a throttle body in detail? I was thinking it would be fun to pick up a used OEM one and play around with the idea.
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