279whp with just intake / exh on The Roadster
10-16-2009, 07:32 AM
#243
Here's another update!
Unfortunately we weren't able to finish up last night, by the time we had the factory exhaust manifolds off the car it was already midnight and we realized the pre-production headers would require some re-doing between the collectors and y-pipe to fit, and one primary tube has clearance issues to the steering shaft that needs to be addressed.
SO! We will get that done today and finish up here!
The motordyne y-pipe made big power (with test pipe), however the T1R showed no gains by itself. Dyno's to come. I think we're at 239whp now with y-pipe back exhaust, intake and flash. Similar to another 2003 G35 I did that made 244whp but it had a 5/16" spacer.
Unfortunately we weren't able to finish up last night, by the time we had the factory exhaust manifolds off the car it was already midnight and we realized the pre-production headers would require some re-doing between the collectors and y-pipe to fit, and one primary tube has clearance issues to the steering shaft that needs to be addressed.
SO! We will get that done today and finish up here!
The motordyne y-pipe made big power (with test pipe), however the T1R showed no gains by itself. Dyno's to come. I think we're at 239whp now with y-pipe back exhaust, intake and flash. Similar to another 2003 G35 I did that made 244whp but it had a 5/16" spacer.
10-16-2009, 09:09 AM
#245
I am almost certain the T1r exhaust is not made for our cars anymore. It is not topspeed. They make a lot parts for honda's. They are high quality...............typically gain decent power on s2k's. The exhaust was 1000-1200US for our cars.
Video:
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST9JtbxbWvU
Product Linky:
http://http://www.vexmotorsports.com...st_p_1308.html
Video:
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST9JtbxbWvU
Product Linky:
http://http://www.vexmotorsports.com...st_p_1308.html
Last edited by 03threefiftyz; 10-16-2009 at 09:12 AM.
10-16-2009, 09:33 AM
#247
Honestly......I don't give my "seal of approval" too many parts, but t1r is up there. Kind of in the upper tier of the mid-range priced parts. When I say good gains on an s2k.....I mean 3-5whp from exhaust, which is pretty stellar for that platform.
10-16-2009, 09:43 AM
#249
10-16-2009, 07:01 PM
#250
Well guys, this upcoming post is a very difficult one to make, but it needs to be done - if only in the name of science!
We saw the following results which are incredible and mind blowing - however in entirely the wrong way.
As I mentioned last night (err was it this morning?), we were able to get a test pipe for the Motordyne Y-pipe - so with the test pipe and stock manifolds/cats we saw 237whp total, or 4hp increase from the stock y-pipe (with the T1R exhaust) The exhaust netted a 0whp gain, infact on some runs we saw losses believe it or not!
Today I did some collector to y-pipe work and we got everything fabricated, welded and bolted up, although once we started doing runs we noticed a fair bit of exhaust leakage at the slip-fit in the collectors. This is causing the car to sound less than ideal and possibly lose power as well. We were out of collector retaining hardware and tabs but some showed up today, so we will be able to fix it up for tomorrow.
Regardless of that however, we did a total of 8 runs with our longtubes (now with a high-flow cat in the motordyne y-pipe) and the peak power we saw was only 246whp!. What I can't figure out is what is so different about the non-revup G, or this G in particular that it just doesn't care about the headers being there. Only seeing 9whp is a joke, I was expecting at LEAST 25whp, hoping for over 30.
I was curious to see if the high-flow cat and exhaust were causing part of the lack in power gain, suspecting that a restrictive exhaust could be choking the headers up and disabling their scavenging effect.
We did a run with an open exhaust just after the y-pipe, and saw 250whp. I'm sure if we had let the car properly cool before the run we would have seen 252, but regardless it shows the exhaust and high flow cat are not a significant restriction.
The next test I wanted to check was cam timing. In theory, the less restrictive exhaust system will need altered cam timing because as the amount of exhaust back pressure changes, the amount of valve overlap you're going to want will change. However the stock cams were already zero'd out where I would have tried even less advance, so no gains were found there.
I'm hoping that the significant leak around the collectors is causing a large power loss but I'm not banking on it. However if that IS the issue, it will be quite the lesson learned!
We are seeing the bottom end torque I would expect (245~ ft lbs), however the thing falls on it's face above 5750rpm. This prototype header is bigger than the roadster test, so if anything we should be seeing less bottom end power and more top end, however it is possible we are just TOO big for stock cams (although I would expect bottom end power to have suffered if this was the case). My prediction is that another restriction in the system (i.e. cams) is a larger, bigger issue and isn't letting the headers flaunt their stuff! Also note that these headers are still smaller than our race car prototype headers, that actually use 1 3/4" - 1 7/8" - 2" primaries, and made 13whp over the 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" primaries.
My gut is telling me that the non-revup's in standard form will respond less to the headers than the revup's because of the stock cam profiles, and the missing variable exhaust cam timing. That being said however, my feeling is also that since the stock cams are now the big restriction, once the cams are swapped the headers will really come alive. Again this is just my feeling and has yet to be justified.
My good friend and supplier of said G35, Andrew, is going to look at ordering some cams in the near future to test and see just how much of a difference they make.
It looks like there is more development ahead for us before these things are ready to go, but don't worry guys we aren't giving up. We all know that a proper long tube design with merge collectors are what makes power, it's not like we're playing with snake oil here. I am happy to be doing the testing on a variety of different cars to be able to best estimate to my customers how much power they can expect from the headers on their particular setup.
It's been a tough few days so I'm going to get some rest and rip on the race car on Sunday (it's a non-revup now making 318whp on the same dyno, still stock heads and block!), we're trying for a new lap record at a local race track. Wish us luck!
We saw the following results which are incredible and mind blowing - however in entirely the wrong way.
As I mentioned last night (err was it this morning?), we were able to get a test pipe for the Motordyne Y-pipe - so with the test pipe and stock manifolds/cats we saw 237whp total, or 4hp increase from the stock y-pipe (with the T1R exhaust) The exhaust netted a 0whp gain, infact on some runs we saw losses believe it or not!
Today I did some collector to y-pipe work and we got everything fabricated, welded and bolted up, although once we started doing runs we noticed a fair bit of exhaust leakage at the slip-fit in the collectors. This is causing the car to sound less than ideal and possibly lose power as well. We were out of collector retaining hardware and tabs but some showed up today, so we will be able to fix it up for tomorrow.
Regardless of that however, we did a total of 8 runs with our longtubes (now with a high-flow cat in the motordyne y-pipe) and the peak power we saw was only 246whp!. What I can't figure out is what is so different about the non-revup G, or this G in particular that it just doesn't care about the headers being there. Only seeing 9whp is a joke, I was expecting at LEAST 25whp, hoping for over 30.
I was curious to see if the high-flow cat and exhaust were causing part of the lack in power gain, suspecting that a restrictive exhaust could be choking the headers up and disabling their scavenging effect.
We did a run with an open exhaust just after the y-pipe, and saw 250whp. I'm sure if we had let the car properly cool before the run we would have seen 252, but regardless it shows the exhaust and high flow cat are not a significant restriction.
The next test I wanted to check was cam timing. In theory, the less restrictive exhaust system will need altered cam timing because as the amount of exhaust back pressure changes, the amount of valve overlap you're going to want will change. However the stock cams were already zero'd out where I would have tried even less advance, so no gains were found there.
I'm hoping that the significant leak around the collectors is causing a large power loss but I'm not banking on it. However if that IS the issue, it will be quite the lesson learned!
We are seeing the bottom end torque I would expect (245~ ft lbs), however the thing falls on it's face above 5750rpm. This prototype header is bigger than the roadster test, so if anything we should be seeing less bottom end power and more top end, however it is possible we are just TOO big for stock cams (although I would expect bottom end power to have suffered if this was the case). My prediction is that another restriction in the system (i.e. cams) is a larger, bigger issue and isn't letting the headers flaunt their stuff! Also note that these headers are still smaller than our race car prototype headers, that actually use 1 3/4" - 1 7/8" - 2" primaries, and made 13whp over the 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" primaries.
My gut is telling me that the non-revup's in standard form will respond less to the headers than the revup's because of the stock cam profiles, and the missing variable exhaust cam timing. That being said however, my feeling is also that since the stock cams are now the big restriction, once the cams are swapped the headers will really come alive. Again this is just my feeling and has yet to be justified.
My good friend and supplier of said G35, Andrew, is going to look at ordering some cams in the near future to test and see just how much of a difference they make.
It looks like there is more development ahead for us before these things are ready to go, but don't worry guys we aren't giving up. We all know that a proper long tube design with merge collectors are what makes power, it's not like we're playing with snake oil here. I am happy to be doing the testing on a variety of different cars to be able to best estimate to my customers how much power they can expect from the headers on their particular setup.
It's been a tough few days so I'm going to get some rest and rip on the race car on Sunday (it's a non-revup now making 318whp on the same dyno, still stock heads and block!), we're trying for a new lap record at a local race track. Wish us luck!
10-16-2009, 09:16 PM
#252
+1 to your catalytic converter test results. It is identical to my dyno measurements.
The metallic catalytic converter drops 3-4 HP relative to the straight pipe.
And +1 to the revup variable cams having a potentially large effect.
Other than for smog reasons, the variable exhaust cams don't do much up or down on a stock exhaust, but once radical changes are made to the exhaust system, the exhaust cams really come into play.
I've experimented with radical exhaust modifications. Some that yielded completely unbelievable results. But it was when I installed these modifications that I saw how important it was to modify the exhaust cam timing. It makes a difference.
I didn't do long tube headers but it was something on the same order of magnitude. The results are so far out of the ordinary the ECU stock map doesn't know how to respond to the new operating conditions. It needs corrections.
Your conclusions to the latest round of testing is entirely plausible.
----------------
On a separate note:
Congratulations on being able to make your post above. It demonstrates real courage and lots of integrity.
Respect
The metallic catalytic converter drops 3-4 HP relative to the straight pipe.
And +1 to the revup variable cams having a potentially large effect.
Other than for smog reasons, the variable exhaust cams don't do much up or down on a stock exhaust, but once radical changes are made to the exhaust system, the exhaust cams really come into play.
I've experimented with radical exhaust modifications. Some that yielded completely unbelievable results. But it was when I installed these modifications that I saw how important it was to modify the exhaust cam timing. It makes a difference.
I didn't do long tube headers but it was something on the same order of magnitude. The results are so far out of the ordinary the ECU stock map doesn't know how to respond to the new operating conditions. It needs corrections.
Your conclusions to the latest round of testing is entirely plausible.
----------------
On a separate note:
Congratulations on being able to make your post above. It demonstrates real courage and lots of integrity.
Respect
10-16-2009, 09:47 PM
#253
^ so true... not many people out there trying to sell a product will admit they didn't get it right the first time, and publish results before the final is released. This industry needs more people like you and less companies that hype you in to buying their products.
10-19-2009, 03:41 PM
#255
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WHERE ARE THE REV-UP LONGTUBES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm tryna convince my friend that he needs them naowwwww and if this takes to long i know he'll back out!!!!!!!!!!!!!
< yes i regularly get this excited for GOOD car-parts even if they are not for my car.
I'm tryna convince my friend that he needs them naowwwww and if this takes to long i know he'll back out!!!!!!!!!!!!!
< yes i regularly get this excited for GOOD car-parts even if they are not for my car.
10-19-2009, 06:12 PM
#259
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i think he is going to make two slightly different models one for the rev-up and one for regular DE's.
The flow characteristics seems to be different since he made 30whp on a rev-up and 4whp on a DE...
look three posts up something about the collector leaking though.
i dunno but mine made 250whp and 240ft/lb's with strup 2.5's and borla TD, i know this guy is more knowledgeable than I am , but maybe try out a good TD set-up and see what you make?
The flow characteristics seems to be different since he made 30whp on a rev-up and 4whp on a DE...
look three posts up something about the collector leaking though.
i dunno but mine made 250whp and 240ft/lb's with strup 2.5's and borla TD, i know this guy is more knowledgeable than I am , but maybe try out a good TD set-up and see what you make?