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I've found many threads on here saying the master cylinders are the same between Brembo and non-Brembo cars. I'm having issues with the brakes locking up extremely early after switching my car from the '07 non-brembo to the brembo calipers. I've had one 370Z owner tell me it's most likely the pads I installed, Carbotech AX6, but I had those on my E36 M3 with no issues. In fact I was hoping the Brembo upgrade would get my 350Z closer to the E36 M3 braking ability but it only seems to have my ABS activate much sooner.
I've said all that to say this, the part numbers between the Brembo vs non-Brembo master cylinders for an '07 are different:
Brembo : 46010-CD027
non-Brembo : 46010-CD005
Looking online at Nissanpartsdeal.com the description shows this:
This leads me to believe the master cylinders are actually different bore size which means the pistons inside have a good chance of being different which effects the proportioning f/r of the brakes.
Has any switched from non-brembo to the brembo master cylinder and had improved braking?
I believe my stock '07 base master cylinder is putting way to much pressure on my front calipers during auto-x and hard braking causing ABS issues. I'm wondering if switching the master cylinders would help?
The larger diameter base MC would require a bit less pedal travel, but that wouldn't necessarily cause the problem you've described.. Do you have the Brembo's at all 4 corners, or just the front? Same compound pads front and rear? I swapped to Brembo's on my '08, kept the base MC, and have had zero issues, as have many other Z owners. I have the same (EBC Red) pads all around, and the same (Stoptech) rotors front and rear.
I swapped Brembo at all 4 corners. I rebuilt them with new seals before installation. I also installed Z1 SS brakes lines for Brembo calipers and the Z1 2 piece Brembo rotors:
I've read a lot of people do not have issues with the standard master cylinder but wonder how many of those people auto-x at all?
My brakes feel great on the road even with the AX6 pads. Although the brakes did get into ABS when I was trying to bed in the pads. I was purposely only trying to brake at 60 to 80% to get the pads to bed and stay out of ABS and it would still activate a small bit when doing the pad bed in procedure.
From my understanding the the bore size on the brembo and non brembo master cylinder are the same at 17/16 but the brake booster is different. There are different master cylinders for cars with and without VDC.
I swapped Brembo at all 4 corners. I rebuilt them with new seals before installation. I also installed Z1 SS brakes lines for Brembo calipers and the Z1 2 piece Brembo rotors:
I've read a lot of people do not have issues with the standard master cylinder but wonder how many of those people auto-x at all?
My brakes feel great on the road even with the AX6 pads. Although the brakes did get into ABS when I was trying to bed in the pads. I was purposely only trying to brake at 60 to 80% to get the pads to bed and stay out of ABS and it would still activate a small bit when doing the pad bed in procedure.
Perhaps try another set of pads. At least that will give you some additional data to work with. Can you tell which wheel(s) are activating the ABS? Maybe it's a weight transfer issue, especially if it's the rears, or the inside wheels when you're braking/turning at the same time? You can try loosening up the sway bars and see if that makes a difference.
From my understanding the the bore size on the brembo and non brembo master cylinder are the same at 17/16 but the brake booster is different. There are different master cylinders for cars with and without VDC.
All of the online parts houses disagree with this in their online parts files.
All of the Brembo equipped models had the same master cylinder, and all of the other models (with or without VDC) had the other master cylinder.
They also show the brake booster is different between Brembo and non-brembo (with or without VDC).
Perhaps try another set of pads. At least that will give you some additional data to work with. Can you tell which wheel(s) are activating the ABS? Maybe it's a weight transfer issue, especially if it's the rears, or the inside wheels when you're braking/turning at the same time? You can try loosening up the sway bars and see if that makes a difference.
I have a set of the Carbotech 1521 pads en-route. I went with these as Carbotech says you can switch between their pads without turning the rotors. If I goto another pad I'll need to turn or sand my brand new rotors to bed in the new pad material.
The fronts are causing the biggest issue and it seems to be both. This is why I was curious about the master cylinders. I thought perhaps the Brembo would have different proportioning inside of it (for the larger rear rotors) along with the different bore size.
I can slow the car during auto-x events by braking what I feel is extremely early and doing it slow, but even as I slow down and apply a bit more pressure the ABS kicks in and does it's thing. This generally causes me to overshoot the corner. Also it's not like this is on some crappy surface, this a complete concrete venue that has more grip than the National site according to those that have driven both.
Currently running no sway bar in the rear. The front is stuck where it's at for the time being as my shocks remote reservoir connection gets in the way if I try to soften it. I can play with the shocks rebound and compression. I will be trying that at my next event.
I will post back with updates once I put the new pads on the car.
I don't think you necessarily have to turn your rotors if you switched to a pad other than Carbotech. For example, the EBC pads (the Yellows are great for auto-x, IMO) have an abrasive break-in coating that cleans the rotors of previous pad deposits. I've also used OEM/BMW Ate pads, which had a similar abrasive, back when I had my E30 M3.
I've been digging into this a bit farther. It looks like the 1" vs 1-1/16" bore might not be accurate on a few of the parts pages. It's possible they are all 1-1/16" but some of the G35 might have gotten a 1" bore.
However looking at the factory service manual there is a VDC vs non-VDC diagram:
As far as I can tell the Brembo's only came on cars with VDC, is that correct???
You can clearly see the pistons inside are of different sizes and the spring setup is different. Wondering if there is any issue putting a VDC on a non-VDC car to try a test to see if the proportioning is different?
The Brembo's came as original on the Track, GT, and Nismo trim cars (the 35th, too), and AFAIK, all of those versions had the VDC. I specifically bought a Base to avoid the VDC, as well as a bunch of other options I didn't want/need, so the Brembo's on mine are working with the non-VDC MC, presumably. Nonetheless, your complaint about the ABS is the first I've ever seen.
The Brembo's came as original on the Track, GT, and Nismo trim cars (the 35th, too), and AFAIK, all of those versions had the VDC. I specifically bought a Base to avoid the VDC, as well as a bunch of other options I didn't want/need, so the Brembo's on mine are working with the non-VDC MC, presumably. Nonetheless, your complaint about the ABS is the first I've ever seen.
Thanks for the info on the models!
I bought the base for those exact reasons as well. Plus it's the lightest model HR to start with for a nationally competitive auto-x car.
Perhaps something else is amiss with my ABS system. I've read about sensors causing issues but they seem to cause it abnormally in other conditions, not necessarily repeatable like my issue.
Or the other option could be the E36 M3 brakes (and ABS) were just that good that I'm spoiled by them and shouldn't be hoping that the 350Z can be just as good?
The new pads arrive via UPS today, I should be able to get them in tonight and have some reviews this weekend. The next auto-x at the same venue will be on the 12th so I can really test out the pads.
I've never found the Brembo's lacking feel or performance, and I've had a few BMW's, too. At some point, bigger isn't better, and it comes down to balance, traction, etc.
I agree with what you've said, bigger isn't better. Being that they were stock on these cars I was hoping the balance had been worked out.
The reason I was comparing to the M3 is because I had the same tires, RE71R, on both (although smaller on the M3, 255 vs 275 on the Z), the same pads on both, and the same general alignment on both (the M3 actually had more front camber which should make braking performance suffer).
I'll continue to change some variable and see which direction takes me to get the feel I want and the lack of ABS intrusiveness I need.
The Carbotech 1521 Bobcat pads arrived via UPS today. I got them installed after work and just returned from the bedding procedure for the 1521, which is a good bit different from the AX or XP series Carbotech.
During the bed in procedure with the AX6 I had to be careful not to get the ABS to engage. During the 1521 bed in I never once felt the ABS and was able to stand on the brakes much harder doing the multiple recommended 60-30 runs. The pads are not near as grippy on initial bite but still pulled the car down hard.
Hopefully after the pads have had their cool down period I can go out this weekend and see how they feel doing auto-x style 65-30 braking. Then I have an event on Feb 12th to see how they do on a grippy concrete surface when some steering angle is applied during braking.
It's been a long time on an update but I tried running the 1521 pads and man do they suck compared to the AX6 compound. You needed a lot more pedal to stop and even then I was still having issues with ABS engagement and an "ice mode" like symptom, very similar to what a Corvette ice mode feels like.
I got frustrated with the car and decided to make some major shock adjustments at a local event. I went 50% softer than what the shock builder had recommended as a starting point. At this point the car came alive and the brake issues started to be resolved.
I put the AX6 pads back in for the Dixie National event this past weekend. I went with my softer shock settings and was able to adjust my driving style to limit any potential ice mode. Everything is working much better now and I think the shock settings weren't allowing the right weight transfer during any braking. Compound that with my old BMW driving style where you could do two things at once (like trail brake during turn in) and the car was just going crazy. I can still trail brake a little but 90% of my braking has to be done straight or the ABS won't let the car turn.
Another update to this as I started getting ice mode symptoms again and co-drivers did as well. It became highly frustrating and felt like I was leaving time on the table.
I talked with many other auto-x people and one suggestion that came up was to try different pad compounds front and rear. Theory was with the same compound all wheels could slightly lock at the same time and this causes issue with the ABS computer as it has no reference point so it starts what some call "ice mode" as it backs off pressure until a wheel starts turning. With different compounds there would be a better chance of still having a reference for the ABS computer.
Having said this I put the AX6 on the front and the 1521 on the rear at the lunch break during a local auto-x where myself and a co-driver were having ice mode problems at the same spots on course. After the pad swap I have now actually felt true ABS in this car and not ice mode. I can go much deeper into the brake zones and actually modulate what I am doing.
I hope that this helps someone in the future who might run into this issue.
I got ice mode completely stock running autocross. I got it modded , it just sucks. I did have move problems with a square setup, what size tires are you running.
01-24-2017, 01:34 PM
Brembo vs '07 base brake master cylinder
