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So I got cut short installing my hotchkis sway bars this weekend and only had time to do the front. Set it to the 2nd softest setting (48% stiffer than stock) and had to call it a day. I'll be installing the rear this weekend.
My original intention was to use the 3rd hole in the front and 1st in the rear putting both roughly 80% stiffer. What I have found with the just front at 48% is that the rear just doesn't seem to want to turn with the car like it did with the stock ones, not that I'm surprised. The front feels like it's where it needs to be though, just needs the back to match it. The problem is the weakest setting for the rear is 80%.
If I put the front to match the rear, I'm wondering if ride quality is going to be crap. It's kind of approaching what I consider unacceptable now. If I leave the front where it's at and install the rear, I'm still wondering if the ride will be crap and the car is going to want to oversteer too much for my taste.
Has anyone found a rear sway bar that would be about 45% stiffer than stock? It really feels like if I just balanced out my front, it would be near perfect for me. Or is there a set that is around 40% both front and back?
I'll play around with 2nd and 3rd holes on front and 1st on rear this weekend, just wondering what my options are.
So I got cut short installing my hotchkis sway bars this weekend and only had time to do the front. Set it to the 2nd softest setting (48% stiffer than stock) and had to call it a day. I'll be installing the rear this weekend.
My original intention was to use the 3rd hole in the front and 1st in the rear putting both roughly 80% stiffer. What I have found with the just front at 48% is that the rear just doesn't seem to want to turn with the car like it did with the stock ones, not that I'm surprised. The front feels like it's where it needs to be though, just needs the back to match it. The problem is the weakest setting for the rear is 80%.
If I put the front to match the rear, I'm wondering if ride quality is going to be crap. It's kind of approaching what I consider unacceptable now. If I leave the front where it's at and install the rear, I'm still wondering if the ride will be crap and the car is going to want to oversteer too much for my taste.
Has anyone found a rear sway bar that would be about 45% stiffer than stock? It really feels like if I just balanced out my front, it would be near perfect for me. Or is there a set that is around 40% both front and back?
I'll play around with 2nd and 3rd holes on front and 1st on rear this weekend, just wondering what my options are.
A very neutral setting with Hotchkis, Eibach, bars that are adjustable using angle of attack adjustment (multi-position holes) is using both on same setting (same hole as it were).
I run a Hole 1 Front/Hole 2 Rear for a slight bias to oversteer. Why? Because I can.
S'far as comfort is concerned, sway bars do NOT contribute to ride comfort (nor the relative discomfort). Roll stiffness is not to be confused with "suspension stiffness", meaning shocks and springs. Sway bars don't do a dang thing in a straight line. They merely pivot in their center bushings with the up/down movement of the suspension.
An argument "could be" made that 'uncomfortableness" can result with too stiff a setting and there's a limiting motion through the end links. That's bull too as in a straight line, the front suspension is moving up/down in unison. Maybe if you hit a pothole with one wheel or something but that's the exception not the rule.
It's only when there's an uneven side-side loading, e.g., cornering, that they do their jobs in transferring load to the unloaded wheel. I'm not talking about about curves on a freeway (although of course, there's benefit from them there too), instead talking fast, tighter curves.
I always recommend starting at neutral, drive it at least a couple hundred miles through various types of roads/tracks and adjust/tune as you see fit. Even at full soft position, the bars offer improvement over stock.
Then we have what a lot if track guys are doing, hole 3 or 4 ( stiff settings ) and running a stock rear or no rear bar.
It's against normal physics, but for some odd reason works with stiffer spring rates.
Yup, terrasmak makes a great point.
The key word there is what's highlighted. Alters roll stiffness in a very different way but net result is similar, thereby lowering requirement for load transfer through intermediary methods (sway bar). Doesn't eliminate the value of a sway bar on a track car but all cars are different.... Z just happens to work out fine without one.
On the track. I suspect this solution won't work for OP if he's already dissatisfied with the comfort level. Hahahaha.
Be aware that you also don't need to use the same hole on each side of the bar, if you really need to fine-tune and want an intermediate between two settings. And, you can play with your tire pressures, too. Higher pressure equates to a stiffer bar setting.
Be aware that you also don't need to use the same hole on each side of the bar, if you really need to fine-tune and want an intermediate between two settings. And, you can play with your tire pressures, too. Higher pressure equates to a stiffer bar setting.
Yup, I ran with hole 2 and 3 up front for a long time.
Sooooooooo I just noticed that my awesome used sway bars have 3 holes, and the new version of the same bars (same part number and everything) has 4 holes... I have the front set in the middle... Medium, so far so good...
Probably put the back one on tomorrow, and will probably set it up on the light setting...
So far its noticeable, and I had to fight the urge to go 60 around the rotary at the end of the highway on the way to work this A.m.
My cars handling continues to impress me, although I am accustomed to driving a F650 for 10 hours a day... (it actually handles well considering its 16000 lbs unloaded) although it does make you feel like your going to flip over when theirs big trucks on the back.
Not to put too fine point on it. I think some folks overlook that the bars need to set at 0 preload with adjustable endlinks if you are lowered. There is a very small margin, (3 flats) between raising or lowering the chasis, (At least with my new Whiteline ends).
Hotchkis still recommends full (#4) FR and softest (#1) RR on the Z33 for the record.
Not to put too fine point on it. I think some folks overlook that the bars need to set at 0 preload with adjustable endlinks if you are lowered. There is a very small margin, (3 flats) between raising or lowering the chasis, (At least with my new Whiteline ends).
Hotchkis still recommends full (#4) FR and softest (#1) RR on the Z33 for the record.
Preload thing, not really a concern unless you are putting the car on scales.
Preload thing, not really a concern unless you are putting the car on scales.
Sorry, this statement is incorrect. Preload in a sway bar means you're putting an unintentional load on one side. Sure, this can affect corner weights on a scale, but there's also an issue in cornering itself. If a swaybar is preloaded, it means that it's already twisted when the car is at rest, and its trying to roll the car to one side because of the preload. This means once the car is set on the ground, it'll have asymmetrical behavior - your Z will seem happier turning one way rather than the other.
I try to set my swaybars up with no preload, I use my trailer ramps and simply lower one axle down onto them. There's enough room to wiggle in there and adjust the links without having to twist the bar. That way, I know my settings are accurate as possible.
I was going to get the whiteline end links, mostly for the baller factor and they are maybe stronger... But I dont have a lift or scales and other then the state police I dont know of anyone around here who does.
Also not going to stick the 165lbs in the drivers seat, or probably every pay the $300ish for a track day around here...
I just like to tinker with the car, and well when deals come along on pretty much new old stock parts I jump on them...
Car handled great before, and it's even better now...
Wish the roads around here would get a little better haha
But anywho.. I dont have a #4, even in the directions online they only talk about 3 holes, but I know they revised the bar and added the 4th hole.
I went for the middle hole, its noticeable in the difference from stock...
Just wanted to add my favorite part of these directions.
The "you will have to bend the alignment tab out of the way to use the adjustability of this bar" part
I was like ummmmm, glad I have a vice... Glad I had extra end links also because one of them is a life partner with my original sway bar.
Sorry, this statement is incorrect. Preload in a sway bar means you're putting an unintentional load on one side. Sure, this can affect corner weights on a scale, but there's also an issue in cornering itself. If a swaybar is preloaded, it means that it's already twisted when the car is at rest, and its trying to roll the car to one side because of the preload. This means once the car is set on the ground, it'll have asymmetrical behavior - your Z will seem happier turning one way rather than the other.
I try to set my swaybars up with no preload, I use my trailer ramps and simply lower one axle down onto them. There's enough room to wiggle in there and adjust the links without having to twist the bar. That way, I know my settings are accurate as possible.
I'm just saying the stock non adjustable endlinks are fine and rarely have enough preloaded ad to be concerned with unless you are at the point or setting the car on scales.
Good thred, thanks for all the input! Still tweaking over here on weekend ZR.
So, Bilstein B8s, Eibach Pros, Z1 camber arms and Whitelines.
As Dboy states, Hotchkis recommends full soft RR, full stiff FR. I put all 4 corners on stands and set my ends to exactly neutral, that is 2 flats either way would pre-load or delay. I went with full soft RR and #3 FR.
I find my FR ride height dropped 3-4 mm, and the car is way too twitchy/active for the street. I know there's a learning curve, but over uneven pavement or bumps the suspension is way too active, almost like work to keep the vehicle tracking straight.
Recently aligned and new Michelin PSSs. At this point, I plan to go down to #2 FR and or get the chassis height corrected.
Thoughts?
If your right height got altered by the sway bar you might have a lot of pressure on those end links when the car is on the ground.
I dont know how the whitelines are but I have zero pressure on the links when the car is on the ground... I can pull the link off and move it to whatever hole without issues...
The factory links use a ball joint that probably makes for more forgiveness when setting up...
When you say you put all 4 corners on stands are you talking about jack stands with the wheels off the ground? Or ramps that held the car off the ground but full weight on the tires?
I think you want to adjust the end links with all the weight of the car on the tires.
I still find it odd and amusing that Hotchkis suggests front at stiffest and rear somewhere less. Guessing its a CYA liability thing. Hahahaha. Best to spec an understeering setup than a toss-yer-a$$-around-backwards drift oversteer arrangement.
But that's a good place to start as any I guess. I advocate starting at soft and soft then working your way up but I suppose you could do it with full stiff front....
But the reason I don't like doing that.... I just don't think that gives enough adjustability one way or other because in that scenario, the rear bar can only go stiffer and may never reach the level of oversteer one wants to dial in because the front is so stiff vis a vis the rear already. You'll end up having to slack the front bar some to keep the fore-aft delta correct.
And that's the key thing to keep in mind when tuning roll stiffness. It's not how stiff one end OR the other is, it's how stiff one end is COMPARED TO THE OTHER END.
If your right height got altered by the sway bar you might have a lot of pressure on those end links when the car is on the ground.
I dont know how the whitelines are but I have zero pressure on the links when the car is on the ground... I can pull the link off and move it to whatever hole without issues...
The factory links use a ball joint that probably makes for more forgiveness when setting up...
When you say you put all 4 corners on stands are you talking about jack stands with the wheels off the ground? Or ramps that held the car off the ground but full weight on the tires?
I think you want to adjust the end links with all the weight of the car on the tires.
Exactly this, I set up my end links with all 4 corners on jack stands/no tires. and adjusted the links so that they were all in "Neutral" position/no preload. In other words, if I wrenched 2 flats either way, I was either providing preload one way or putting down force on the bar in the other. I need to do more homework lol.
Originally Posted by MicVelo
I still find it odd and amusing that Hotchkis suggests front at stiffest and rear somewhere less. Guessing its a CYA liability thing. Hahahaha. Best to spec an understeering setup than a toss-yer-a$$-around-backwards drift oversteer arrangement.
But that's a good place to start as any I guess. I advocate starting at soft and soft then working your way up but I suppose you could do it with full stiff front....
But the reason I don't like doing that.... I just don't think that gives enough adjustability one way or other because in that scenario, the rear bar can only go stiffer and may never reach the level of oversteer one wants to dial in because the front is so stiff vis a vis the rear already. You'll end up having to slack the front bar some to keep the fore-aft delta correct.
And that's the key thing to keep in mind when tuning roll stiffness. It's not how stiff one end OR the other is, it's how stiff one end is COMPARED TO THE OTHER END.
Agreed, the directions are wonky. Between Hotchkis and Whiteline they give no guidance whatsoever regarding lowered cars. Whiteline simply recommends mimicking og link length. I will do more homework and get things dialed.
Great thread all. I just had my OEM suspension replaced with Ohlins DFV coilovers and added Hotchkis sways (newer with 4 holes front). I don't recall where the shop set the sways, but Good to hear and confirm my suspicions about settings on the z. Also very strange about full soft or no rear bar.
I'm still confused about the need for adjustable end-links. I can see if you are lowered a lot, you could run into clearance issues, but I find it hard to find a perfectly flat spot of pavement (even in my garage) where all 4 corners look even. So given that your car is almost always on uneven ground (all 4 points not co-planar), where or how do you place your car so that there's no static pre-load? seems like there will almost always be cross-wheel preload or twist unless you have a lab-grade perfectly flat surface to park your car on. Am I making sense?
ninja edit: we lowered the front by .75" and the rear by 1.0". No, I'm not into slamming it. Suspension needs articulation if it's not a dedicated track car.
Great thread all. I just had my OEM suspension replaced with Ohlins DFV coilovers and added Hotchkis sways (newer with 4 holes front). I don't recall where the shop set the sways, but Good to hear and confirm my suspicions about settings on the z. Also very strange about full soft or no rear bar.
I'm still confused about the need for adjustable end-links. I can see if you are lowered a lot, you could run into clearance issues, but I find it hard to find a perfectly flat spot of pavement (even in my garage) where all 4 corners look even. So given that your car is almost always on uneven ground (all 4 points not co-planar), where or how do you place your car so that there's no static pre-load? seems like there will almost always be cross-wheel preload or twist unless you have a lab-grade perfectly flat surface to park your car on. Am I making sense?
ninja edit: we lowered the front by .75" and the rear by 1.0". No, I'm not into slamming it. Suspension needs articulation if it's not a dedicated track car.
The need for adjustable end links is for setting pre load, I'm pretty sure you basically need a super flat surface.. (like a drive on alignment lift) along with a set of 4 scales... You can then adjust the end links so that the cars weight is evenly distributed to each wheel... This is how I have come to understand the use for them...
I think most people just upgrade because they need new end links and the adjustable ones are readily available and look super cool but they are probably set to the same length as oem, but provide a stronger part that can probably handle more abuse...
I can honestly say ever since I have upgraded my sway bars I have on more than one occasion said to myself mid turn "if one of my endinks fail right now I will probably be in that ditch" and that is pretty much just going the highway speed around the on ramp. I would imagine any car that is constantly putting the suspension to work would surely want the piece of mind of upgraded end links.
BTT. I’m going with factory springs and Koni Yellows. No drop. I was thinking about starting with settings of 2 in the front and 1 in the rears as a starting point. Does this make any less sense than going with 1 front and back or some other particular setting on a factory ride height? This is a great thread, but I’m not looking for settings on a dropped ride. Thanks!
02-20-2017, 06:28 PM
Sway bar setups
but they are probably set to the same length as oem, but provide a stronger part that can probably handle more abuse... 