Cipher: Analyzing A/F and Timing thru 2nd & 3rd Gear
12-30-2006, 01:22 AM
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Cipher: Analyzing A/F and Timing thru 2nd & 3rd Gear
I have Cipher set up on my notebook and want to tune my VQ35. My plan is to see if the A/F is rich enough to let me bump the timing 2 degrees. My timing was as-set from the factory in this graph. Here's a screenprint of the graph from Cipher:
I started Cipher's capture while driving in 2nd gear. I ran it up through 2nd gear hard, shifted easy into 3rd, ran it hard through 3rd gear and shifted easy into 4th and let off. You can follow this from the green RPM line in the top graph.
I found that shifting hard jars the heads on my notebooks hard drive and aborts the logging session.
My first question is why the timing isn't at the maximum at WOT? You can see that the blue ignition timing graph peaks while I'm just cruising down the road, before I pushed the motor harder. I would think the timing would be at full advance when the gas pedal is floored (see red throttle position graph).
My second question is if it looks like I'm running too lean to bump my timing any. The leanest it gets is about 11. You can see the 10.97 after I let off the gas pedal. I'm running 93 octane Exxon gasoline.
How much A/F drop will I get with 2 degrees of additional ignition advance? Too much?
I started Cipher's capture while driving in 2nd gear. I ran it up through 2nd gear hard, shifted easy into 3rd, ran it hard through 3rd gear and shifted easy into 4th and let off. You can follow this from the green RPM line in the top graph.
I found that shifting hard jars the heads on my notebooks hard drive and aborts the logging session.
My first question is why the timing isn't at the maximum at WOT? You can see that the blue ignition timing graph peaks while I'm just cruising down the road, before I pushed the motor harder. I would think the timing would be at full advance when the gas pedal is floored (see red throttle position graph).
My second question is if it looks like I'm running too lean to bump my timing any. The leanest it gets is about 11. You can see the 10.97 after I let off the gas pedal. I'm running 93 octane Exxon gasoline.
How much A/F drop will I get with 2 degrees of additional ignition advance? Too much?
12-30-2006, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by westpak
It is the opposite, 10.97 is the richest it gets, the leanest from the graph looks to be almost 13. you should be fine to bump the timing a couple of degrees.
13 is what the stock ecu shoots for at WOT (most of the time). Just do a few runs with the ignition +2* and see what it looks like. You won't hurt anything - if the ecu thinks you're getting too lean or sees detonation then it will adjust accordingly.
BTW, I would imagine that the ecu pulls back timing at WOT to be on the safe side and prevent pinging/detonation. Afterall, these things are tuned for longevity, not to squeeze out every last bit of HP.
12-30-2006, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by westpak
It is the opposite, 10.97 is the richest it gets, the leanest from the graph looks to be almost 13. you should be fine to bump the timing a couple of degrees.
Makes more sense that it would get rich when I let off the gas.
12-30-2006, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
+1
13 is what the stock ecu shoots for at WOT (most of the time). Just do a few runs with the ignition +2* and see what it looks like. You won't hurt anything - if the ecu thinks you're getting too lean or sees detonation then it will adjust accordingly.
BTW, I would imagine that the ecu pulls back timing at WOT to be on the safe side and prevent pinging/detonation. Afterall, these things are tuned for longevity, not to squeeze out every last bit of HP.
13 is what the stock ecu shoots for at WOT (most of the time). Just do a few runs with the ignition +2* and see what it looks like. You won't hurt anything - if the ecu thinks you're getting too lean or sees detonation then it will adjust accordingly.
BTW, I would imagine that the ecu pulls back timing at WOT to be on the safe side and prevent pinging/detonation. Afterall, these things are tuned for longevity, not to squeeze out every last bit of HP.
I'll try bumping it up tonight.
12-30-2006, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by __jb
Argh... Thanks... It should be easy to remember that it's AIR/fuel not the reverse.
Makes more sense that it would get rich when I let off the gas.
Makes more sense that it would get rich when I let off the gas.
You're looking at the wbo2 info wrong - the higher the point on the chart, the leaner it is. Therefore, when you let off the gas, then system goes lean lean lean. This is normal.
Don't worry, it'll become easy to remember after staring at this stuff for awhile.
12-30-2006, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
You're looking at the wbo2 info wrong - the higher the point on the chart, the leaner it is. Therefore, when you let off the gas, then system goes lean lean lean. This is normal.
Don't worry, it'll become easy to remember after staring at this stuff for awhile.
Don't worry, it'll become easy to remember after staring at this stuff for awhile.
I don't seem to get it through my head that it is more air, relative to the fuel.
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12-31-2006, 12:23 AM
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I increased the timing two degrees tonight. Here's the graph from Cipher. Like the first graph, I positioned the data mark at the highest RPM of the run, which was to top of second gear.
The data seems similar to the chart above that was taken before I added the two degrees timing, except that one of the A/F sensors went a bit lean after I let off this time. I don't know why the sensors spike differently when I let off the gas. I suppose that's why there are two of them.
It looks like the timing increase did happen. The ignition timing at 6513 rpm (first graph) before the timing increase is 28 degrees and the ignition timing after the increase (second graph) was 30 degrees at 6550 rpm. (28 + 2 = 30)
The increase in timing seems to have helped torque. I don't have any technical data to back that up, but my butt dyno seemed to like it. I suspect I'll leave the timing advanced unless it gets unusually hot, or I can't get 93 octane gas.
Is there any way to determine if the engine knocks with a standard ECU and Cipher?
The data seems similar to the chart above that was taken before I added the two degrees timing, except that one of the A/F sensors went a bit lean after I let off this time. I don't know why the sensors spike differently when I let off the gas. I suppose that's why there are two of them.
It looks like the timing increase did happen. The ignition timing at 6513 rpm (first graph) before the timing increase is 28 degrees and the ignition timing after the increase (second graph) was 30 degrees at 6550 rpm. (28 + 2 = 30)
The increase in timing seems to have helped torque. I don't have any technical data to back that up, but my butt dyno seemed to like it. I suspect I'll leave the timing advanced unless it gets unusually hot, or I can't get 93 octane gas.
Is there any way to determine if the engine knocks with a standard ECU and Cipher?
12-31-2006, 06:56 AM
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Unfortunately they have not been able to log timing with cypher but the sure way of telling if there is knock is that your timing would be pulled quite a bit you would see a dip in the timing if the knock was enough for the ECU to pull timing.
12-31-2006, 02:02 PM
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hey jb, see you made it to the my350z forums, 2 degrees of timing is worth about 5-6 hp all through the curve and about the same in tq, if you come to the dyno day we are having here on the 7th, we can play with it..
i have an order in with uprev for my own unit...
i have an order in with uprev for my own unit...
12-31-2006, 07:13 PM
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I forgot to add that I dropped about .15-.2 seconds in 1/4 mile times and added about 9 kw power when I added 2* timing. These comparisons (2 runs baseline, 2 runs after timing increase, no other changes) were all taken within about an hour of each other using my Apexi RSM with G-Sensor. It's a great tool, even if it is in metric measurements only. 
12-31-2006, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by westpak
Unfortunately they have not been able to log timing with cypher but the sure way of telling if there is knock is that your timing would be pulled quite a bit you would see a dip in the timing if the knock was enough for the ECU to pull timing.
Check out the Ign Timing parameter in the next to the last column of the data area... also the dark blue (hard to see) IGN TIMING graph in the top of the three graphs.
The ignition timing logs show that the timing jumps more than I would have thought. I'm not used to reading these graphs enough to determine whether the ECU pulled down the timing because of knock, or if it is a normal occurrence.
I did look through the ignition timing data for my two runs with OEM timing and with the plus 2 degrees bump. The maximum timing with the 2 degree bump was two degrees higher than th factory setting.
12-31-2006, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
hey jb, see you made it to the my350z forums,
I read much and post little.
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
2 degrees of timing is worth about 5-6 hp all through the curve and about the same in tq, if you come to the dyno day we are having here on the 7th, we can play with it..
I'm coming over Saturday for the FGC Dinner and staying about a mile North of your shop. I'm currently number 5 on your list for dyno runs on Sunday! I was hoping to have Cipher running when we dyno my car, so that sounds great!
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
i have an order in with uprev for my own unit...
12-31-2006, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
I forgot to add that I dropped about .15-.2 seconds in 1/4 mile times and added about 9 kw power when I added 2* timing. These comparisons (2 runs baseline, 2 runs after timing increase, no other changes) were all taken within about an hour of each other using my Apexi RSM with G-Sensor. It's a great tool, even if it is in metric measurements only.
It's beginning to seem like the 2 degree bump is almost a no brainer... as long as you can get good gas. I wonder if the Summer heat will cause problems. (I live in Florida.)
What does 9kw of power mean? Kilowatts?
12-31-2006, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by __jb
I believe Cipher does log timing.
Check out the Ign Timing parameter in the next to the last column of the data area... also the dark blue (hard to see) IGN TIMING graph in the top of the three graphs.
The ignition timing logs show that the timing jumps more than I would have thought. I'm not used to reading these graphs enough to determine whether the ECU pulled down the timing because of knock, or if it is a normal occurrence.
I did look through the ignition timing data for my two runs with OEM timing and with the plus 2 degrees bump. The maximum timing with the 2 degree bump was two degrees higher than th factory setting.
Check out the Ign Timing parameter in the next to the last column of the data area... also the dark blue (hard to see) IGN TIMING graph in the top of the three graphs.
The ignition timing logs show that the timing jumps more than I would have thought. I'm not used to reading these graphs enough to determine whether the ECU pulled down the timing because of knock, or if it is a normal occurrence.
I did look through the ignition timing data for my two runs with OEM timing and with the plus 2 degrees bump. The maximum timing with the 2 degree bump was two degrees higher than th factory setting.
01-01-2007, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by __jb
Wow!!! That's an amazing gain!!!
It's beginning to seem like the 2 degree bump is almost a no brainer... as long as you can get good gas. I wonder if the Summer heat will cause problems. (I live in Florida.)
What does 9kw of power mean? Kilowatts?
It's beginning to seem like the 2 degree bump is almost a no brainer... as long as you can get good gas. I wonder if the Summer heat will cause problems. (I live in Florida.)
What does 9kw of power mean? Kilowatts?
1 kw = .986 hp
I got to thinking about the 1/4 times, and I don't feel they're entirely reliable for comparison (forgot vdc on first run and bounced off the rev limiter on another), but the kw calculations have been consistent with these on other runs I've taken previously.
FL still gets 93 octane, right?
01-01-2007, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by westpak
Sorry meant to say that it doesn't log knock.
It seems like I remember reading that the UTEC could log knock. Does the UTEC get its knock information from the ECU? If it does, you'd think the Cipher could get the knock information, too.
01-01-2007, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
1 kw = .986 hp
I got to thinking about the 1/4 times, and I don't feel they're entirely reliable for comparison (forgot vdc on first run and bounced off the rev limiter on another), but the kw calculations have been consistent with these on other runs I've taken previously.
I got to thinking about the 1/4 times, and I don't feel they're entirely reliable for comparison (forgot vdc on first run and bounced off the rev limiter on another), but the kw calculations have been consistent with these on other runs I've taken previously.
I've forgotten to turn the VDC off so many times... I'd get one of those VDC control circuit boards, but I'm afraid someone might drive my car in the rain and not turn it off.
Originally Posted by dTor
FL still gets 93 octane, right?
01-07-2007, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by __jb
No problem. I should have known that you knew what parameters Cipher could log...
It seems like I remember reading that the UTEC could log knock. Does the UTEC get its knock information from the ECU? If it does, you'd think the Cipher could get the knock information, too.
It seems like I remember reading that the UTEC could log knock. Does the UTEC get its knock information from the ECU? If it does, you'd think the Cipher could get the knock information, too.
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01-07-2007, 02:08 PM
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Once again another tuning thread full of bad info. 
Where to start.... How about basic conversion ratios. 1kw = 1.341hp
Deriving power gains from drag times is a very inconsistant way to come up w/ a number. I'm sure your not a consistant racer. You state above about hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Perhaps the fact you went .2 quicker was you actually pulled a clean run rather than banging the rev limiter.
What are you doing try to tune a car when you have no concept or understanding of basic tuning knowledge? I'm sure your regarded as the 'tuner' amongst you friends since you spent money and bought neat looking software for your car. Go take the car to a dyno, watch what they do, ask questions, don't believe everything your told, think and read up on how to tune an IC engine. Then your going the right direction.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but the tuning world is full of people like you who after getting the software or piggyback think they have a clue as to what they're doing. Yet they're still bagging groceries @ Publix.
If you serious about learning how to tune - www.efi101.com
Where to start.... How about basic conversion ratios. 1kw = 1.341hp
Deriving power gains from drag times is a very inconsistant way to come up w/ a number. I'm sure your not a consistant racer. You state above about hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Perhaps the fact you went .2 quicker was you actually pulled a clean run rather than banging the rev limiter.
What are you doing try to tune a car when you have no concept or understanding of basic tuning knowledge? I'm sure your regarded as the 'tuner' amongst you friends since you spent money and bought neat looking software for your car. Go take the car to a dyno, watch what they do, ask questions, don't believe everything your told, think and read up on how to tune an IC engine. Then your going the right direction.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but the tuning world is full of people like you who after getting the software or piggyback think they have a clue as to what they're doing. Yet they're still bagging groceries @ Publix.
If you serious about learning how to tune - www.efi101.com