Possible V8 for new 370Z... with source
10-13-2008, 01:27 PM
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^^You and I think alike. I said in a recent thread Id like to see a Nismo Z with the NA version of the GTR's 3.8 ltr engine or even punched out to 4ltr. Maybe the regular Z will get the 380rs-like 350hp engine and the Nismo could get the 400hp version. budjet GT3. Wishful thinking though.
10-13-2008, 08:15 PM
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Figure a fully optioned 370z costs $37k, add $5k to that for a 500Z (or 450Z). I based that number off the premium for a fully loaded M35 VS fully loaded M45.
Obviously the 450/500Z would come only with the higher option packs so you can't compare the base price for apple's to apple's.
Forget AWD, a ~400HP Z car, even if the V8 drive train weighs an extra 150 pounds, we're still talking under 3300LBS. I'd spend the extra $5k in a heartbeat.
Seems like a natural step for Nissan and it will help fill the gap between the Z and GT-R and truly get people to cross-shop the Z against the Corvette, Shelby, Challenger, M3, Cayman S, etc.
Obviously the 450/500Z would come only with the higher option packs so you can't compare the base price for apple's to apple's.
Forget AWD, a ~400HP Z car, even if the V8 drive train weighs an extra 150 pounds, we're still talking under 3300LBS. I'd spend the extra $5k in a heartbeat.
Seems like a natural step for Nissan and it will help fill the gap between the Z and GT-R and truly get people to cross-shop the Z against the Corvette, Shelby, Challenger, M3, Cayman S, etc.
10-13-2008, 09:08 PM
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Second, that 6MT GT is ~3400 pounds. I know there are weight-reducing measures on the 370Z like aluminum doors and hatch, but the heavier engine, brakes, interior materials, etc. are going to negate some of that. I doubt the 370Z will be under 3200 pounds... it would be some great engineering in the weight-savings department, a department that Nissan/Infiniti misplaced somewhere back when Reagan was president.
To keep costs reasonable AND shave 200 pounds off the weight AND add all the other goodies... would be quite impressive, if not almost impossible.
Basically, let's hope what they have done RIGHT with this car is to keep the weight down, and get back to those basic principles of light weight. It's what Porsche does so well... and why their cars handle so well. WEIGHT is the enemy. Especially when it's 150 pounds of turbo hardware or a 4.5 liter engine sitting over the front wheels. I'll take better handling, please.
I still think a lightweight tuned 3.7 - 4.0 liter engine makes more sense. The car isn't underpowered, anymore, relative to the competition. A 330 hp Z car with 3200 pounds is sporting a better power/weight ratio than the current Cayman S. That car with 360 HP is the same power ratio as the new M3 coupe. I don't think people are realizing the performance improvement of this car. The power is increasing, but ALSO the weight is decreasing. Can I get an amen? It would be like the current 350Z coming stock with 350 HP. Nice.
Nissan can tune a 4.0 liter car up to ~380 HP without much problem, or real additional cost. And hardly add any weight in the process. And get additional exposure for their horribly marketed NISMO brand.
A 3250 pound NISMO Z with 380 HP and other go-fast goodies? A better power/weight ratio than the new M3 or upcoming Cayman S? A DSG option from the GT-R? Sounds good to me, and right up NISMO's alley.
10-13-2008, 09:31 PM
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I was generalizing, but when I say loaded, I meant more of a loaded Enthusiast not the NISMO version or any of the grand touring ones. I apologize about not clarifying that. I meant to say a Z with leather, nav, premium pack, etc.
Regardless of what the base price is, let's say there is a $6k delta between a 350HP V6 and a 430HP V8 (I upped it to 430 based on the fact at in the Z they'd probably get more power out of it, just like they got an extra 20 off the V6 to get 350 (assuming 350 is accurate)).
The weight difference is up for discussion as well. Let's say the 370Z equipped weighs 3,100 LBS (just for a reference point not for debate). The M45 weighs 114LBS more than the M35 and the M45 and I believe the M45 comes with a few more premium options from the factory, but let's say 115LBS anyways.
Let's assume a few more for extra drivetrain beefing. I think 150LBS is reasonable and would keep it under 3300 LBS. 430HP @ 3300LBS = C6 Z51 like performance = mid 12s = SIGN ME UP.
Needless to say, even at $45k it's less expensive than a Z51 Vette (at least comparing sticker, 3LT Z51 = 55k+), and would be comparable from a creature-feature standpoint. The only thing the Vette would have is better gas mileage.
Why not do it? Despite the economy, the Americans and Germans continue to pump out vehicles with excessive amounts of power. The Japanese have yet to follow (exception = ISF which costs more than better competition).
Nissan would make a statement with a $40-45k vehicle that handles well, drives like a true sports car (e.g. not a shelby), and can keep up with the best America has to offer and the best that Germany has to offer for less than $70k. I'm sure the ratio would be like 10-15% of Zs sold but it'd probably be 10% of owners who'd have gone somewhere else (Vette, etc.). They offered an NA and Turbo model before, so why not offer two powertrains again?
Regardless of what the base price is, let's say there is a $6k delta between a 350HP V6 and a 430HP V8 (I upped it to 430 based on the fact at in the Z they'd probably get more power out of it, just like they got an extra 20 off the V6 to get 350 (assuming 350 is accurate)).
The weight difference is up for discussion as well. Let's say the 370Z equipped weighs 3,100 LBS (just for a reference point not for debate). The M45 weighs 114LBS more than the M35 and the M45 and I believe the M45 comes with a few more premium options from the factory, but let's say 115LBS anyways.
Let's assume a few more for extra drivetrain beefing. I think 150LBS is reasonable and would keep it under 3300 LBS. 430HP @ 3300LBS = C6 Z51 like performance = mid 12s = SIGN ME UP.
Needless to say, even at $45k it's less expensive than a Z51 Vette (at least comparing sticker, 3LT Z51 = 55k+), and would be comparable from a creature-feature standpoint. The only thing the Vette would have is better gas mileage.
Why not do it? Despite the economy, the Americans and Germans continue to pump out vehicles with excessive amounts of power. The Japanese have yet to follow (exception = ISF which costs more than better competition).
Nissan would make a statement with a $40-45k vehicle that handles well, drives like a true sports car (e.g. not a shelby), and can keep up with the best America has to offer and the best that Germany has to offer for less than $70k. I'm sure the ratio would be like 10-15% of Zs sold but it'd probably be 10% of owners who'd have gone somewhere else (Vette, etc.). They offered an NA and Turbo model before, so why not offer two powertrains again?
10-13-2008, 09:52 PM
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^^You and I think alike. I said in a recent thread Id like to see a Nismo Z with the NA version of the GTR's 3.8 ltr engine or even punched out to 4ltr. Maybe the regular Z will get the 380rs-like 350hp engine and the Nismo could get the 400hp version. budjet GT3. Wishful thinking though.
10-14-2008, 10:25 AM
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Oh, I understand your reasoning and agree with a lot of it... but there are a few other pieces of the puzzle.
First, can the 4.5 even fit into the 370Z chassis, and do it easily? Remember, it's all about cost. To fit a completely different architecture engine into the 370Z is a lot more cumbersome and expensive than to use a ~4.0 liter V6 based on the same architecture as the 3.7.
Secondly, how much does another 150 pounds over the front wheels effect handling/weight distribution? A 4.0L V6 won't add much weight at all, compared to a 4.5 V8.
Third, the 4.5 is not a high-revving engine made for high HP. I don't think it would crank out much more than 400HP. But yes, a good bit more torque is on the table than the 3.7L. Displacement, displacement, displacement...
Fourth, with gas prices, etc... it's all about fuel eceonomy these days as well, and the 4.5 won't exactly help in that area.
Here's the thing... I agree with you and I BET that the idea of a 450Z crossed the tables of the product planners at Nissan a while ago. They probably even built a prototype or 2. Problem is, that engine isn't very well suited for the Z... it's for torque, not free-revving high rpm sports car horsepower.
A few years ago, there's a good chance that a 450Z was in the pipeline... but with gas prices and the economy... I think it seems a lot less likely, as they would sell a lot less, compared to the 370Z, and it would be more difficult to recoupe the costs to develop a 450Z.
Again, developing a 450Z is a LOT more expensive than developing a 400Z using a 4.0L V6 based on the 3.7 or so... the engine mounts, weighting, plumbing, electronics all basically remain the same. And a high-revving 4.0L could put nearly as much horsepower power to the ground as a 4.5L, albeit at a torque deficit. And with lighter weight as well.
Anyway, who knows... I really do think a 450Z was quite possible a few years ago... and on the older, larger, heavier chassis. But things have changed... bottom line is that they're going "Porsche" instead of "Corvette". And I like it...
First, can the 4.5 even fit into the 370Z chassis, and do it easily? Remember, it's all about cost. To fit a completely different architecture engine into the 370Z is a lot more cumbersome and expensive than to use a ~4.0 liter V6 based on the same architecture as the 3.7.
Secondly, how much does another 150 pounds over the front wheels effect handling/weight distribution? A 4.0L V6 won't add much weight at all, compared to a 4.5 V8.
Third, the 4.5 is not a high-revving engine made for high HP. I don't think it would crank out much more than 400HP. But yes, a good bit more torque is on the table than the 3.7L. Displacement, displacement, displacement...
Fourth, with gas prices, etc... it's all about fuel eceonomy these days as well, and the 4.5 won't exactly help in that area.
Here's the thing... I agree with you and I BET that the idea of a 450Z crossed the tables of the product planners at Nissan a while ago. They probably even built a prototype or 2. Problem is, that engine isn't very well suited for the Z... it's for torque, not free-revving high rpm sports car horsepower.
A few years ago, there's a good chance that a 450Z was in the pipeline... but with gas prices and the economy... I think it seems a lot less likely, as they would sell a lot less, compared to the 370Z, and it would be more difficult to recoupe the costs to develop a 450Z.
Again, developing a 450Z is a LOT more expensive than developing a 400Z using a 4.0L V6 based on the 3.7 or so... the engine mounts, weighting, plumbing, electronics all basically remain the same. And a high-revving 4.0L could put nearly as much horsepower power to the ground as a 4.5L, albeit at a torque deficit. And with lighter weight as well.
Anyway, who knows... I really do think a 450Z was quite possible a few years ago... and on the older, larger, heavier chassis. But things have changed... bottom line is that they're going "Porsche" instead of "Corvette". And I like it...
10-14-2008, 10:29 AM
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10-14-2008, 12:39 PM
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Hehe.....He might want to wait for the Challenger SRT10 coming next year. Sema show had it not car mag...heres the link. Would be nasty and leap frog the Camaro and even Mustang GT540KR.
http://jalopnik.com/5063114/dodge-ch...600-hp-to-sema
http://jalopnik.com/5063114/dodge-ch...600-hp-to-sema
Last edited by SnakeBitten; 10-14-2008 at 12:42 PM.
10-14-2008, 12:51 PM
#270
Ok ok....here's my idea for a more powerful Z. Forget the V8 just Twin turbo charge and stroke the VQ, since it's going upmarket people will likely demand a couple of back seats. Now all this power will have to get to the ground (I figure a TT stroked VQ can make just shy of 500hp) with so much horsepower AWD would be essential. Instead of offering manual and auto versions a single DSG style transmission should please enthusiasts and more casual buyers.
So after all these changes we're probably looking at close to 3800lbs. That shouldn't be a problem with the right tires and AWD system. I know it sounds crazy, but i think such a car could run under 7:30 on the ring. Sure it wont be enough to beat the ZR1 or the ACR viper, but it'll be a Nissan so people will pay attention.
And there you have it. My idea for an upmarket Z. Charge less than 80K and I GUARANTEE people will flock to it. Heck dealers will probably have to mark it up.
Or just forget all that and keep the Z affordable....
So after all these changes we're probably looking at close to 3800lbs. That shouldn't be a problem with the right tires and AWD system. I know it sounds crazy, but i think such a car could run under 7:30 on the ring. Sure it wont be enough to beat the ZR1 or the ACR viper, but it'll be a Nissan so people will pay attention.
And there you have it. My idea for an upmarket Z. Charge less than 80K and I GUARANTEE people will flock to it. Heck dealers will probably have to mark it up.
Or just forget all that and keep the Z affordable....
Last edited by moflow; 10-14-2008 at 01:01 PM.
10-14-2008, 01:02 PM
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Ok ok....here's my idea for a more powerful Z. Forget the V8 just Twin turbo charge the VQ (maybe stroke it to 3.8 liters) then make it AWD, maybe give it a couple of tiny backseats for practicality since we'll be going a little bit upmarket with this. Oh and better throw in a DSG style gearbox, those things are mean.
So after all these changes we're probably looking at 3800lbs. In order to defeat this Nissan should create some sort of advanced AWD system and optimize it for the Nurburgring. Shoot for under 7:30 on the ring. Make sure it uses stock tires though.
And there you have it. My idea for an upmarket Z. Charge less than 80K and I GUARANTEE people will flock to it. Heck dealers will probably have to mark it up, but i'm sure it'd get the fanboys excited...
Or just forget all that and keep the Z affordable....
So after all these changes we're probably looking at 3800lbs. In order to defeat this Nissan should create some sort of advanced AWD system and optimize it for the Nurburgring. Shoot for under 7:30 on the ring. Make sure it uses stock tires though.
And there you have it. My idea for an upmarket Z. Charge less than 80K and I GUARANTEE people will flock to it. Heck dealers will probably have to mark it up, but i'm sure it'd get the fanboys excited...
Or just forget all that and keep the Z affordable....
I sense extreme sarcasm
GTR anyone?
10-14-2008, 01:08 PM
#272
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well.. talking about performance think about lotus... they don't need a hell of an engine to go fast... and the new ones with more hp and more weight are just barely faster than the older one... but it's easier to sell a power bump than a power/weight ratio (it's also less expensive).
the "big" problem with the actual 350z to compete on par with cayman S and some vettes on a road course was the understeering balance and the overall weight...
(I'm not even considering the Z as a decent platform for drag racing.. there is better stuff for that).
3000lbs and 350+ hp on a compact 3.7/3.8 liter engine (the 3.8 of the japanese nismo 380 Z would be perfect for that and it's already there), less overhang and a shorter wheelbase is a nice recipe...
offer a REAL nismo/track version for the hardcore petrolhead and to score some good lap time at the nurburgring (<7:50... around a 385hp carrera S ) with the real nismo goodies inside (flywheel, clutch, lsd, adjustable swaybars, optional bucket seats... ) more like an "RS" version.. and you'll have an incredible success... if you can do it for less than 50K... (and nissan can.)
the "big" problem with the actual 350z to compete on par with cayman S and some vettes on a road course was the understeering balance and the overall weight...
(I'm not even considering the Z as a decent platform for drag racing.. there is better stuff for that).
3000lbs and 350+ hp on a compact 3.7/3.8 liter engine (the 3.8 of the japanese nismo 380 Z would be perfect for that and it's already there), less overhang and a shorter wheelbase is a nice recipe...
offer a REAL nismo/track version for the hardcore petrolhead and to score some good lap time at the nurburgring (<7:50... around a 385hp carrera S ) with the real nismo goodies inside (flywheel, clutch, lsd, adjustable swaybars, optional bucket seats... ) more like an "RS" version.. and you'll have an incredible success... if you can do it for less than 50K... (and nissan can.)
10-14-2008, 01:31 PM
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well.. talking about performance think about lotus... they don't need a hell of an engine to go fast... and the new ones with more hp and more weight are just barely faster than the older one... but it's easier to sell a power bump than a power/weight ratio (it's also less expensive).
the "big" problem with the actual 350z to compete on par with cayman S and some vettes on a road course was the understeering balance and the overall weight...
(I'm not even considering the Z as a decent platform for drag racing.. there is better stuff for that).
3000lbs and 350+ hp on a compact 3.7/3.8 liter engine (the 3.8 of the japanese nismo 380 Z would be perfect for that and it's already there), less overhang and a shorter wheelbase is a nice recipe...
offer a REAL nismo/track version for the hardcore petrolhead and to score some good lap time at the nurburgring (<7:50... around a 385hp carrera S ) with the real nismo goodies inside (flywheel, clutch, lsd, adjustable swaybars, optional bucket seats... ) more like an "RS" version.. and you'll have an incredible success... if you can do it for less than 50K... (and nissan can.)
the "big" problem with the actual 350z to compete on par with cayman S and some vettes on a road course was the understeering balance and the overall weight...
(I'm not even considering the Z as a decent platform for drag racing.. there is better stuff for that).
3000lbs and 350+ hp on a compact 3.7/3.8 liter engine (the 3.8 of the japanese nismo 380 Z would be perfect for that and it's already there), less overhang and a shorter wheelbase is a nice recipe...
offer a REAL nismo/track version for the hardcore petrolhead and to score some good lap time at the nurburgring (<7:50... around a 385hp carrera S ) with the real nismo goodies inside (flywheel, clutch, lsd, adjustable swaybars, optional bucket seats... ) more like an "RS" version.. and you'll have an incredible success... if you can do it for less than 50K... (and nissan can.)
I agree with you. IF the Sport pack 370 is bad enough to fight the Cayman S and Z4M on the road courses, the Nismo version should be the RS; an unadulterated, hard core track car. Man up.
10-14-2008, 01:43 PM
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Camaro is not better looking and looks are always subjective.
Back on topic to the 370Z. I've said it before and i'll say it again. They should punch out the VQ to 4L and rated it at 350hp at something like 6600rpm and work on it's low and mid range torque
Back on topic to the 370Z. I've said it before and i'll say it again. They should punch out the VQ to 4L and rated it at 350hp at something like 6600rpm and work on it's low and mid range torque
10-14-2008, 01:57 PM
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Better yet, if you're worrieed about a few specialized, low-volume factory tuner cars, go ahead and just make one yourself. I mean, I know the HP will already be close to 500, but I bet that engine can go more like 540 if you up the boost... use some lightweight materials, save some weight, even more race-tuned suspension, charge more for all the go-fast goodies, and call it a Spec V or something...
10-14-2008, 02:04 PM
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Exactly. Sorry, but a nearly 3400 pound 350Z was bloated... the main reason I didn't buy one. Get it around 3200 and we're talking. Get it around 3100 and everybody's happy. Well, except PAG.
10-14-2008, 02:16 PM
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Maybe something special like that is in store if they make a Nismo version. I guess that'd be the 3rd or 4th production year.
10-14-2008, 02:26 PM
#278
There was a thread somewhere where people were weighing their 350Zs Most of them were around 3200-3300lbs regardless of year. GT's were heavier though i believe.
Last edited by moflow; 10-14-2008 at 02:28 PM.
10-14-2008, 02:40 PM
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(the good side of the Z is the predictable handling)
if you can't keep up with those with an HR engine, and a decent suspension setup... DECENT.. not hardcore... than start considering more track time and more and more... because the problem is the driver.
the actual nismo is a little bit more than 3275... w/o spare tires, some crap, lighter exhaust and rims I should be at less than 3200 and it's good...
and to me... it's already over that "borderline" where a lot of driving skill is required to push to the limit... but it's possible for an amateur to learn...
a little bit more is going to be more fun...
but too much and you'll look a s#cker no matter how good you are, unless you are a pro or semipro.
exactly like those guys with GT3s, vipers and vettes that are fast... but not even close to the car limit.
the first 350z was running the nurburgring in 8:26 and that is a FAST track.. best time with a cayman S is 8:15... it's 1/3 of a second per mile faster....
an HR Z is already capable of that...
to me the 370z target will be a carrera S... and that would be AWESOME!!!!
10-14-2008, 03:01 PM
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with my "not so much" track experience... already a nismo Z (with few mods for handling) can compete with those car... just a little slower than the cayman.. but with the Z4M is a nice fight.
(the good side of the Z is the predictable handling)
if you can't keep up with those with an HR engine, and a decent suspension setup... DECENT.. not hardcore... than start considering more track time and more and more... because the problem is the driver.
the actual nismo is a little bit more than 3275... w/o spare tires, some crap, lighter exhaust and rims I should be at less than 3200 and it's good...
and to me... it's already over that "borderline" where a lot of driving skill is required to push to the limit... but it's possible for an amateur to learn...
a little bit more is going to be more fun...
but too much and you'll look a s#cker no matter how good you are, unless you are a pro or semipro.
exactly like those guys with GT3s, vipers and vettes that are fast... but not even close to the car limit.
the first 350z was running the nurburgring in 8:26 and that is a FAST track.. best time with a cayman S is 8:15... it's 1/3 of a second per mile faster....
an HR Z is already capable of that...
to me the 370z target will be a carrera S... and that would be AWESOME!!!!
(the good side of the Z is the predictable handling)
if you can't keep up with those with an HR engine, and a decent suspension setup... DECENT.. not hardcore... than start considering more track time and more and more... because the problem is the driver.
the actual nismo is a little bit more than 3275... w/o spare tires, some crap, lighter exhaust and rims I should be at less than 3200 and it's good...
and to me... it's already over that "borderline" where a lot of driving skill is required to push to the limit... but it's possible for an amateur to learn...
a little bit more is going to be more fun...
but too much and you'll look a s#cker no matter how good you are, unless you are a pro or semipro.
exactly like those guys with GT3s, vipers and vettes that are fast... but not even close to the car limit.
the first 350z was running the nurburgring in 8:26 and that is a FAST track.. best time with a cayman S is 8:15... it's 1/3 of a second per mile faster....
an HR Z is already capable of that...
to me the 370z target will be a carrera S... and that would be AWESOME!!!!