Blog: Upgrade to full active front stage & more...
01-24-2008, 05:02 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
Then I dropped the box into the hatch, hooked up the wire from my amp which was very patiently waiting. I snapped some pics and took a little listen........
I can't believe the wait is killing me this much... Interestingly enough, Alpine has cancelled their implementation of the LAT. Some said it didn't deliver on promise.
What say you, fine man? I will value your opinion, as you just had a nice setup to compare it to...
01-24-2008, 05:07 PM
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My first impression of the audio....
Let me preface this with I admittedly was a little skeptical of this 'different' structure. It looks different and the description sounds too good to be true. There are mixed reviews on the Alpine unit, some love it, some hate it. I actually think this is true of any bandpass design. I am not a fan of bandpass designs. I like the tightness and broader frequency range of sealed. But how will this thing do in a sealed enclosure?
Where was my Diamond D610 for settings? My amp's gain is turned up about 3/4, the crossover was set to 80Hz at 12dB, the headunits sub output was at +2 (out of -6 to +6). The Diamond hit hard and deep. I was very happy with that setup.
After removing and selling the Diamond I left everything the same except I turned the sub output level to 0. In comes the LAT500........
right away I noticed that even with the sub output level dropped down 2 clicks, it is louder than the Diamond was. It does seem to get pretty deep. And the hits are fast and hard. I couldn't play anything very loud because I have neighbors and I think they like me right now.....I want to keep it that way
. I will definitely play with this on my 1 hour ride into work tomorrow and add to this thread.
Let me preface this with I admittedly was a little skeptical of this 'different' structure. It looks different and the description sounds too good to be true. There are mixed reviews on the Alpine unit, some love it, some hate it. I actually think this is true of any bandpass design. I am not a fan of bandpass designs. I like the tightness and broader frequency range of sealed. But how will this thing do in a sealed enclosure?
Where was my Diamond D610 for settings? My amp's gain is turned up about 3/4, the crossover was set to 80Hz at 12dB, the headunits sub output was at +2 (out of -6 to +6). The Diamond hit hard and deep. I was very happy with that setup.
After removing and selling the Diamond I left everything the same except I turned the sub output level to 0. In comes the LAT500........
right away I noticed that even with the sub output level dropped down 2 clicks, it is louder than the Diamond was. It does seem to get pretty deep. And the hits are fast and hard. I couldn't play anything very loud because I have neighbors and I think they like me right now.....I want to keep it that way
. I will definitely play with this on my 1 hour ride into work tomorrow and add to this thread.
01-24-2008, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8scott_o
I can't believe the wait is killing me this much... Interestingly enough, Alpine has cancelled their implementation of the LAT. Some said it didn't deliver on promise.
01-25-2008, 04:21 AM
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WOW!!!!
That is all I have to say.
First off, this is not a sub for everyone. If you are looking for BOOM that will make your neighbors vibrate out of bed, then this is NOT for you. If you are looking for tight, accurate, controlled sub bass......this may be something to look into.
Anyone reading this should know that my most direct comparison will be to the Diamond D610 that I just had in this car. All other equipment remained the same. The Diamond D610 is touted as one of the better SQ subs out there. It is a tight sub. Having an aluminum cone it is punchy. When it hits you know it. Only on the very lowest of bass in some hip hop songs did I notice any roll off of the low end. And very few songs had bass this low, so it was no big deal. unless you are a hardcore hip hop fan the Diamond is an awesome sub.
This morning on my way to work, I popped in my old favorite demo disc for bass. Method Man and Redman's Blackout album. It's not your typical hip hop disc, it has dynamics to the low end through the entire disc. Not to mention their songs are pretty entertaining.
The first thing I noticed was the lack of vibration. Don't get me wrong, there was still a vibration. My rear view mirror actually vibrates more than with the Diamond. but I don't 'feel' it as much. But it weird because I hear the bass that I would also normally feel. I think this is what will help make this unit very SQ oriented. With less structural vibration, you are free to hear more detail in the music (my theory at least). I was skeptical as to weather or not this thing could hit the lows (40Hz and below). I haven't played my test tones yet, but it kept up with every note thrown at it by the dynamic duo of Red and Meth. This weekend I will do some listening to my other favorite demo disc, Jethro Tull's Catfish Rising, which has deep electric bass, synthesizers and kick drums. Yes, I have a very wide range of genres I like to listen to.
I can't wait for this sub to break in a bit. It should loosen up/soften up a little bit, but I expect it to stay pretty tight. Definitely worth a look if pure SQ is what you are after.
If I can figure out how to get my Casio Exilim camera into video mode, I'll take a little video clip of this LAT500 in action.
That is all I have to say.
First off, this is not a sub for everyone. If you are looking for BOOM that will make your neighbors vibrate out of bed, then this is NOT for you. If you are looking for tight, accurate, controlled sub bass......this may be something to look into.
Anyone reading this should know that my most direct comparison will be to the Diamond D610 that I just had in this car. All other equipment remained the same. The Diamond D610 is touted as one of the better SQ subs out there. It is a tight sub. Having an aluminum cone it is punchy. When it hits you know it. Only on the very lowest of bass in some hip hop songs did I notice any roll off of the low end. And very few songs had bass this low, so it was no big deal. unless you are a hardcore hip hop fan the Diamond is an awesome sub.
This morning on my way to work, I popped in my old favorite demo disc for bass. Method Man and Redman's Blackout album. It's not your typical hip hop disc, it has dynamics to the low end through the entire disc. Not to mention their songs are pretty entertaining.
The first thing I noticed was the lack of vibration. Don't get me wrong, there was still a vibration. My rear view mirror actually vibrates more than with the Diamond. but I don't 'feel' it as much. But it weird because I hear the bass that I would also normally feel. I think this is what will help make this unit very SQ oriented. With less structural vibration, you are free to hear more detail in the music (my theory at least). I was skeptical as to weather or not this thing could hit the lows (40Hz and below). I haven't played my test tones yet, but it kept up with every note thrown at it by the dynamic duo of Red and Meth. This weekend I will do some listening to my other favorite demo disc, Jethro Tull's Catfish Rising, which has deep electric bass, synthesizers and kick drums. Yes, I have a very wide range of genres I like to listen to.
I can't wait for this sub to break in a bit. It should loosen up/soften up a little bit, but I expect it to stay pretty tight. Definitely worth a look if pure SQ is what you are after.
If I can figure out how to get my Casio Exilim camera into video mode, I'll take a little video clip of this LAT500 in action.
Last edited by StreetOC192; 01-25-2008 at 04:47 AM.
01-25-2008, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
WOW!!!!
That is all I have to say.
First off, this is not a sub for everyone. If you are looking for BOOM that will make your neighbors vibrate out of bed, then this is NOT for you. If you are looking for tight, accurate, controlled sub bass......this may be something to look into.
Anyone reading this should know that my most direct comparison will be to the Diamond D610 that I just had in this car. All other equipment remained the same. The Diamond D610 is touted as one of the better SQ subs out there. It is a tight sub. Having an aluminum cone it is punchy. When it hits you know it. Only on the very lowest of bass in some hip hop songs did I notice any roll.off of the low end. And very few songs had bass this low, so it was no big deal. unless you are a hardcore hip hop fan the Diamond is an awesome sub.
This morning on my way to work, I popped in my old favorite demo disc for bass. Method Man and Redman's Blackout album. It's not your typical hip hop disc, it has dynamics to the low end through the entire disc. Not to mention their songs are pretty entertaining.
The first thing I noticed was the lack of vibration. Don't get me wrong, there was still a vibration. My rear view mirror actually vibrates more than with the Diamond. but I don't 'feel' it as much. But it weird because I hear the bass that I would also normally feel. I think this is what will help make this unit very SQ oriented. With less structural vibration, you are free to hear more detail in the music (my theory at least). I was skeptical as to weather or not this thing could hit the lows (40Hz and below). I haven't played my test tones yet, but it kept up with every note thrown at it by the dynamic duo of Red and Meth. This weekend I will do some listening to my other favorite demo disc, Jethro Tull's Catfish Rising, which has deep electric bass, synthesizers and kick drums. Yes, I have a very wide range of genres I like to listen to.
I can't wait for this sub to break in a bit. It should loosen up/soften up a little bit, but I expect it to stay pretty tight. Definitely worth a loog if pure SQ is what you are after.
If I can figure out how to get my Casio Exilim camera into video mode, I'll take a little video clip of this LAT500 in action.
That is all I have to say.
First off, this is not a sub for everyone. If you are looking for BOOM that will make your neighbors vibrate out of bed, then this is NOT for you. If you are looking for tight, accurate, controlled sub bass......this may be something to look into.
Anyone reading this should know that my most direct comparison will be to the Diamond D610 that I just had in this car. All other equipment remained the same. The Diamond D610 is touted as one of the better SQ subs out there. It is a tight sub. Having an aluminum cone it is punchy. When it hits you know it. Only on the very lowest of bass in some hip hop songs did I notice any roll.off of the low end. And very few songs had bass this low, so it was no big deal. unless you are a hardcore hip hop fan the Diamond is an awesome sub.
This morning on my way to work, I popped in my old favorite demo disc for bass. Method Man and Redman's Blackout album. It's not your typical hip hop disc, it has dynamics to the low end through the entire disc. Not to mention their songs are pretty entertaining.
The first thing I noticed was the lack of vibration. Don't get me wrong, there was still a vibration. My rear view mirror actually vibrates more than with the Diamond. but I don't 'feel' it as much. But it weird because I hear the bass that I would also normally feel. I think this is what will help make this unit very SQ oriented. With less structural vibration, you are free to hear more detail in the music (my theory at least). I was skeptical as to weather or not this thing could hit the lows (40Hz and below). I haven't played my test tones yet, but it kept up with every note thrown at it by the dynamic duo of Red and Meth. This weekend I will do some listening to my other favorite demo disc, Jethro Tull's Catfish Rising, which has deep electric bass, synthesizers and kick drums. Yes, I have a very wide range of genres I like to listen to.
I can't wait for this sub to break in a bit. It should loosen up/soften up a little bit, but I expect it to stay pretty tight. Definitely worth a loog if pure SQ is what you are after.
If I can figure out how to get my Casio Exilim camera into video mode, I'll take a little video clip of this LAT500 in action.
Good stuff!!
01-25-2008, 05:41 AM
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Yeah, it's not something I'm used to. But I think I like it. I wish some of you SQ guys were closer and could take a listen. I'd like to hear feedback from others.
01-25-2008, 09:42 AM
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Went outside on lunch and tried to get a little video using my Casio Exilim EX-Z75 point and shoot camera. I thought I had good lighting, and maybe it's my monitor here at work that sux, but I can't really see the diaphragms moving. I did see them moving on the little screen when played back on the camera though, so hopefully my monitor at work is just dark. Also the little pinhole mic on the camera is not the best so it sounds like poo in the vid. I turned the gain on the front stage all the way down since I'm at work. I don't need my coworkers thinking I'm nuts.
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=CIMG0471.flv
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=CIMG0472.flv
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=CIMG0471.flv
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=CIMG0472.flv
Last edited by StreetOC192; 01-25-2008 at 12:19 PM.
01-25-2008, 11:14 PM
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SUBSCRIBED!!!
I am completey intrigued by this sub. Thanks for having the b@lls to take the chance to check it out for us. Gotta give you props for riding the bleeding edge in subwoofer technology!
Waiting for subjective feedback on the SUB-bass!
I am also a born skeptic.
- These series transducers don't seem to provide nearly the excursion of conventional subwoofers.
- The excursion specs stated are maximum mechanical limitations, which is worrisome to me.
- They don't state the Xsus at all.
- The 24 Hz free-air resonance (fs) is more indicative of a heavy moving mass and not so much an indication of compliant suspension. Not necessarily bad thing.
I love that the casing is plastic.
I love that it seems to be fairly light-weight for the drivers that it is said to replace. I have held off on a system in my car because of the added weight. I had two 12's and about 200lbs of gear in my 97 M3. sounded great, but the z is heavier to begin with.
I love that the form-factor is so much different. (not many mounting options in our Z's for conventional designs)
"The power of two 10's or two 12's". Not sure what that means exactly. Air-displacement-wise, I doubt, but maybe equal in surface area?? Sure. so for the same 400watts of power, maybe they put out the same sound, but they can't take as much power as a conventional sub. We are trading excursion for surface area - which may be fine. They should really give these subs a rating using Theoretical Piston Efficiency. The standard sensitivity measurement is a worthless measure of a sub's capabilites, since it's normally measured at 1w/meter (not so bad) but with a 1kHz signal (who the heck would measure a sub at 1kHz?).
I noticed that Alpine's Box was a bandpass design. I am not sure why they went this way, but my guesses are:
Given a Bandpass design's inherent traits, being:
1. Their output in the pass-band will increase over that of a sealed bass-reflex design. Bandpass designs usually peak from 4-6 db somewhere in the pass-band based on design. (Trying to make up for some output?) Although the band-pass design causes an increase in envelope delay and some phase shifting, which causes sound to be a little less precise. That might be what people don't like about it.(??)
2. The band-pass design reduces the excursion of the woofer, while increasing output. (allowing more power handling while controlling excursion)
3. Sounds outside of the pass-band (above and below) will not be heard as they are locked into the vented half of enclosure and cannot escape so you don't hear them. Could there be noise from the shafts rubbing on the cones-holes as they slide past each other? Speaking of cone holes - there HAS to be some noise generated here since the air in the "rear" chamber can escape into the front chamber on compression and on extension, the air would get sucked back into the rear air chamber. My guess is that on a low-bass note, without mid and tweeter sounds to drown it out, you'll hear some fluttering from the holes/shafts. the band-pass box would filter this all out though.
4. Alpine's design keeps people's hands out of the mechanicals - that may be the whole reason there.
I think the OEM applications would be awesome. Imagine this in the rear deck of a sedan! Or instead of the BLOSE system I presently have with that 10" midbass/midrange... what subwoofer?!?
Anyway, I am still very intrigued by this and can't wait for more subjective feedback.
THANKS!
I am completey intrigued by this sub. Thanks for having the b@lls to take the chance to check it out for us.
Gotta give you props for riding the bleeding edge in subwoofer technology! Waiting for subjective feedback on the SUB-bass!
I am also a born skeptic.
- These series transducers don't seem to provide nearly the excursion of conventional subwoofers.
- The excursion specs stated are maximum mechanical limitations, which is worrisome to me.
- They don't state the Xsus at all.
- The 24 Hz free-air resonance (fs) is more indicative of a heavy moving mass and not so much an indication of compliant suspension. Not necessarily bad thing.
I love that the casing is plastic.
I love that it seems to be fairly light-weight for the drivers that it is said to replace. I have held off on a system in my car because of the added weight. I had two 12's and about 200lbs of gear in my 97 M3. sounded great, but the z is heavier to begin with.
I love that the form-factor is so much different. (not many mounting options in our Z's for conventional designs)
"The power of two 10's or two 12's". Not sure what that means exactly. Air-displacement-wise, I doubt, but maybe equal in surface area?? Sure. so for the same 400watts of power, maybe they put out the same sound, but they can't take as much power as a conventional sub. We are trading excursion for surface area - which may be fine. They should really give these subs a rating using Theoretical Piston Efficiency. The standard sensitivity measurement is a worthless measure of a sub's capabilites, since it's normally measured at 1w/meter (not so bad) but with a 1kHz signal (who the heck would measure a sub at 1kHz?).
I noticed that Alpine's Box was a bandpass design. I am not sure why they went this way, but my guesses are:
Given a Bandpass design's inherent traits, being:
1. Their output in the pass-band will increase over that of a sealed bass-reflex design. Bandpass designs usually peak from 4-6 db somewhere in the pass-band based on design. (Trying to make up for some output?) Although the band-pass design causes an increase in envelope delay and some phase shifting, which causes sound to be a little less precise. That might be what people don't like about it.(??)
2. The band-pass design reduces the excursion of the woofer, while increasing output. (allowing more power handling while controlling excursion)
3. Sounds outside of the pass-band (above and below) will not be heard as they are locked into the vented half of enclosure and cannot escape so you don't hear them. Could there be noise from the shafts rubbing on the cones-holes as they slide past each other? Speaking of cone holes - there HAS to be some noise generated here since the air in the "rear" chamber can escape into the front chamber on compression and on extension, the air would get sucked back into the rear air chamber. My guess is that on a low-bass note, without mid and tweeter sounds to drown it out, you'll hear some fluttering from the holes/shafts. the band-pass box would filter this all out though.
4. Alpine's design keeps people's hands out of the mechanicals - that may be the whole reason there.
I think the OEM applications would be awesome. Imagine this in the rear deck of a sedan! Or instead of the BLOSE system I presently have with that 10" midbass/midrange... what subwoofer?!?
Anyway, I am still very intrigued by this and can't wait for more subjective feedback.
THANKS!
Last edited by hiz-n-herz; 01-25-2008 at 11:39 PM.
01-26-2008, 05:41 AM
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Holy long post, Batman!!! I will try to do my best to help out with some of this....
No problem. I have been interested in this sub for about 6 months now. I figured since I am going to an active front stage, I'll try out this new sub also.
Well, the way the arrangement is, you have 2 transducers or diaphragms that work in complete opposites in each chamber. So even if each diaphragm has an xmax of say......6mm, effectively you can double that to 12mm of xmax per chamber. There are 3 chambers on the front. Each diaphragm is about 5" diameter. So you have an effective cone area of 5"x6. This thing displaces quite a bit of air for it's size.
See above diaphragm area explaination. I agree that 1kHz to measure a sub is high. I took that sensativity rating with a grain of salt. However I will tell you that I have not only had to turn the subwoofer output on my headunit down 2 clicks, but i have also had to turn the gains up on my components. This thing is DEFINITELY more efficient than my Diamond D610 was.
True on all counts here. i think Alpine wanted a truly plug and play design without having to fuss with crossovers. This way they might be able to open themselves up to the market of people adding their bandpass unit to their OEM systems without needing additional processing. I have read reviews of excessive port noise in the Alpine units.....as stated before, this thing displaces quite a bit of air for it's size. As for the rods passing through the diaphragms, I haven't looked too closely but it's a good point to bring up. I'm imagining the holes are sealed up somehow. Maybe I will try to stick my camera in there to take a pic if I can. The unit itself makes no extraneous noise that I can tell. I do know that I need to do some more sound damping in my hatch now though.
I am overall very happy so far with the setup. I need to tweak it a bit. Because of the smaller diaphragm size, this unit is capable of producing output well above the range of a traditional sub. I think I need to increase the slope at 80Hz from -12dB to -24dB. I am getting a LOT of midbass output and my Diamond components are having trouble keeping up actually.
I will try to do my best to help out with some of this....
Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
I am completey intrigued by this sub. Thanks for having the b@lls to take the chance to check it out for us. Gotta give you props for riding the bleeding edge in subwoofer technology!
Gotta give you props for riding the bleeding edge in subwoofer technology!
Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
- These series transducers don't seem to provide nearly the excursion of conventional subwoofers.
- The excursion specs stated are maximum mechanical limitations, which is worrisome to me.
- They don't state the Xsus at all.
- The 24 Hz free-air resonance (fs) is more indicative of a heavy moving mass and not so much an indication of compliant suspension. Not necessarily bad thing.
- The excursion specs stated are maximum mechanical limitations, which is worrisome to me.
- They don't state the Xsus at all.
- The 24 Hz free-air resonance (fs) is more indicative of a heavy moving mass and not so much an indication of compliant suspension. Not necessarily bad thing.
Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
"The power of two 10's or two 12's". Not sure what that means exactly. Air-displacement-wise, I doubt, but maybe equal in surface area?? Sure. so for the same 400watts of power, maybe they put out the same sound, but they can't take as much power as a conventional sub. We are trading excursion for surface area - which may be fine. They should really give these subs a rating using Theoretical Piston Efficiency. The standard sensitivity measurement is a worthless measure of a sub's capabilites, since it's normally measured at 1w/meter (not so bad) but with a 1kHz signal (who the heck would measure a sub at 1kHz?).
Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
I noticed that Alpine's Box was a bandpass design. I am not sure why they went this way, but my guesses are:
Given a Bandpass design's inherent traits, being:
1. Their output in the pass-band will increase over that of a sealed bass-reflex design. Bandpass designs usually peak from 4-6 db somewhere in the pass-band based on design. (Trying to make up for some output?) Although the band-pass design causes an increase in envelope delay and some phase shifting, which causes sound to be a little less precise. That might be what people don't like about it.(??)
2. The band-pass design reduces the excursion of the woofer, while increasing output. (allowing more power handling while controlling excursion)
3. Sounds outside of the pass-band (above and below) will not be heard as they are locked into the vented half of enclosure and cannot escape so you don't hear them. Could there be noise from the shafts rubbing on the cones-holes as they slide past each other? Speaking of cone holes - there HAS to be some noise generated here since the air in the "rear" chamber can escape into the front chamber on compression and on extension, the air would get sucked back into the rear air chamber. My guess is that on a low-bass note, without mid and tweeter sounds to drown it out, you'll hear some fluttering from the holes/shafts. the band-pass box would filter this all out though.
4. Alpine's design keeps people's hands out of the mechanicals - that may be the whole reason there.
Given a Bandpass design's inherent traits, being:
1. Their output in the pass-band will increase over that of a sealed bass-reflex design. Bandpass designs usually peak from 4-6 db somewhere in the pass-band based on design. (Trying to make up for some output?) Although the band-pass design causes an increase in envelope delay and some phase shifting, which causes sound to be a little less precise. That might be what people don't like about it.(??)
2. The band-pass design reduces the excursion of the woofer, while increasing output. (allowing more power handling while controlling excursion)
3. Sounds outside of the pass-band (above and below) will not be heard as they are locked into the vented half of enclosure and cannot escape so you don't hear them. Could there be noise from the shafts rubbing on the cones-holes as they slide past each other? Speaking of cone holes - there HAS to be some noise generated here since the air in the "rear" chamber can escape into the front chamber on compression and on extension, the air would get sucked back into the rear air chamber. My guess is that on a low-bass note, without mid and tweeter sounds to drown it out, you'll hear some fluttering from the holes/shafts. the band-pass box would filter this all out though.
4. Alpine's design keeps people's hands out of the mechanicals - that may be the whole reason there.
I am overall very happy so far with the setup. I need to tweak it a bit. Because of the smaller diaphragm size, this unit is capable of producing output well above the range of a traditional sub. I think I need to increase the slope at 80Hz from -12dB to -24dB. I am getting a LOT of midbass output and my Diamond components are having trouble keeping up actually.
Last edited by StreetOC192; 01-26-2008 at 05:45 AM.
01-26-2008, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
Holy long post, Batman!!! I am overall very happy so far with the setup. I need to tweak it a bit. Because of the smaller diaphragm size, this unit is capable of producing output well above the range of a traditional sub. I think I need to increase the slope at 80Hz from -12dB to -24dB. I am getting a LOT of midbass output and my Diamond components are having trouble keeping up actually.
Yeah, Definitely try 24db/octave slope on that sub and try gapping it from the front high-pass. If your fronts are x'd over at 80 Hz (12db/oct), low-pass that sub at 60 Hz (24db/oct)
Wish you were in Cali. I'd love to hear it...
01-30-2008, 06:45 AM
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OK, after about 10 hours of listening time, the sub seems to have settled in a bit. It is still sharp and punchy, but the bottom end softened up a bit. I haven't found much of anything that it rolls off on (low end). I have to find my test tone cd so I can see how deep we can get with this unit before roll off. My skepticism has been put to bed and I can now concentrate on tuning to get the most out of this sub.
Music I have played and this sub has kept up with everything:
Method man and Redman
Redman
Mims
Jethro Tull
Lenny Kravitz
Britney Spears
Justin Timberlake
Timbaland
Dashboard Confessional
Korn (the bass licks sound awesome)
other misc. alternative music
This weekend I think I will do some extensive listening to my Primus/Les Claypool collection
Music I have played and this sub has kept up with everything:
Method man and Redman
Redman
Mims
Jethro Tull
Lenny Kravitz
Britney Spears
Justin Timberlake
Timbaland
Dashboard Confessional
Korn (the bass licks sound awesome)
other misc. alternative music
This weekend I think I will do some extensive listening to my Primus/Les Claypool collection
01-30-2008, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kwame@z1
Nice, I will have to check this out in person someday soon.
Congrats, I'm glad your pleased with the results.
Congrats, I'm glad your pleased with the results.
01-30-2008, 10:10 AM
#55
Originally Posted by StreetOC192
Thanks Kwame, I definitely think I'm going to take a trip out to NY within the next couple weeks. I want to see yours and Adam's cars in person and I also need to get a set of Work Emotion center caps for the XT7's I got from you guys.
01-31-2008, 02:12 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
More pics are always better though