Interesting Knock Issue (and wheres scaling in utec 2.8d?)

Juztin · 06-29-2008, 11:21 AM

Okay, so a little info on this issue. I get my car back from aps tt install and of course promptly putting 1k miles on the setup on some cruises. I noticed some hesitation under WOT on some spots and of course my immediate thought is knock. After some datalogs I of course see some slight knock under boost that needs to be addressed no biggie, but for the hell of it I decided to do some leisurely data logging and noticed a hell of a lot of small knock counts when off boost and the ECU controlling.

For example, this is some leisurely dirving staying below 3k rpms and with maybe 10-20% tps and no positive boost (knock count is last column):

2015 019 -4.7 00 ECU. rich 00001
2046 019 -4.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
2100 018 -4.8 00 ECU. rich 00001
2120 019 -5.0 00 ECU. rich 00001
2128 018 -5.2 00 ECU. rich 00001
2222 018 -5.3 00 ECU. rich 00002
2194 019 -5.4 00 ECU. rich 00001
2244 018 -5.6 00 ECU. rich 00001
2262 018 -5.7 00 ECU. rich 00001
2278 018 -5.8 00 ECU. rich 00001
2318 018 -5.9 00 ECU. rich 00002
2350 018 -6.0 00 ECU. rich 00002
2355 018 -6.1 00 ECU. rich 00002
2387 018 -6.1 00 ECU. rich 00002
2413 017 -6.2 00 ECU. rich 00002
2431 017 -6.2 00 ECU. rich 00005
2454 017 -6.6 00 ECU. rich 00005
2487 017 -6.9 00 ECU. rich 00005
2523 017 -7.0 00 ECU. rich 00004
2525 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00005
2564 017 -7.2 00 ECU. rich 00008
2579 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00003
2608 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00001
2618 017 -7.0 00 ECU. rich 00004
2645 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00002
2645 016 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00001
2681 016 -7.3 00 ECU. rich 00002
2696 014 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00003
2716 012 -7.9 00 ECU. rich 00001
2710 012 -8.6 00 ECU. rich 00002
2745 009 -8.9 00 ECU. rich 00002
2736 009 -9.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2723 004 -9.7 00 ECU. rich 00005
2743 001 -10.1 00 ECU. rich 00004
2705 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00003
2688 000 -10.9 00 ECU. rich 00003
2692 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00003
2730 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00002
2677 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00002
2653 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00001
2647 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2645 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00003
2594 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00005
2608 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00001
2577 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2564 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00006
2552 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00005
2538 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2491 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006
2480 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2483 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004
2491 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006
2450 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006
2445 002 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00002

Note my position is '00' so it's running off of ECU and this is of course reflected with the 'ECU' label for timing.

When I depress the clutch:

1622 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
1634 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
1609 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
1559 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00001
1451 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00001
1351 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
1238 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
1131 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
1026 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0934 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00000
0847 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00000
0832 000 -10.9 00 ECU. rich 00000
0822 000 -10.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
0820 000 -10.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
0799 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
0777 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
0773 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0772 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0772 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0766 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0784 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0795 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0805 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0834 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0847 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0862 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0864 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0891 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0895 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0909 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0909 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
0914 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
0900 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000

The knock count completely dissapears (anything < 1K knock stops).

Hmmm... OK.

So I'm thinking is there:

1) Bad Gas?
2.) Some other issue (injector scaling (no option for it in the utec v2.8d(c), mechanical false knock)

I've tried a few different stations (shell, phillips 66, conoco) and still no resolution. So I'm thinking bad gas is possibly out the window.

I do hear some kind of odd almost sounds like air, almost sounds like something mechnical buzzing that is somewhat porportionate to rpm.

What is weird is free revving i'm seeing all this knock, but after 3k rpm it seems to also drop off.

Ok....O_o

So I went ahead and modified the UTEC to kick in control at -11 psi absolute.

I immediately knew it was running in the 10% column as the car started running hella rich and was having trouble even getting to 3k rpms as it was running so bad with the fuel.

I'm STILL seeing knock...... 2x o_O

Here's a capture of that:

0738 006 -9.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
0772 009 -9.6 10 ECU. rich 00000
0902 012 -9.4 10 ECU. rich 00000
0975 012 -8.9 10 ECU. rich 00000
1143 011 -8.5 10 ECU. rich 00000
1307 011 -8.4 10 ECU. rich 00000
1480 011 -8.8 10 ECU. rich 00000
1598 011 -9.2 10 ECU. rich 00000
1755 011 -9.7 10 ECU. rich 00000
1843 011 -9.8 10 +25.4 rich 00000
1876 011 -9.9 10 +16.4 rich 00000
1895 011 -9.9 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1844 012 -9.8 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1809 014 -9.7 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1787 015 -9.2 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1794 015 -8.7 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1848 015 -8.4 10 +8.0 rich 00000
1931 014 -8.1 10 +6.3 rich 00001
1985 014 -8.1 10 -0.5 rich 00001
1972 014 -7.9 10 -0.5 rich 00000
1887 014 -7.6 10 -0.5 rich 00001
1787 014 -7.3 10 -0.5 rich 00001
1675 014 -7.3 10 +20.5 rich 00000
1573 015 -7.3 10 ECU. rich 00000
1728 018 -6.9 10 ECU. rich 00000
2006 018 -6.6 10 +12.7 rich 00000
2229 018 -6.4 10 +1.7 rich 00001
2181 004 -6.2 10 -0.5 rich 00002
2089 000 -7.7 10 -0.5 rich 00000
1973 000 -9.1 10 -0.5 rich 00001
1864 000 -9.8 10 -0.5 rich 00001
1757 000 -10.3 10 -0.5 rich 00000
1658 000 -10.7 10 ECU. rich 00000
1548 000 -11.0 10 ECU. rich 00000
1430 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
1315 000 -11.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
1205 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00001
1089 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00001
0993 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
0945 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
0898 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
0873 000 -11.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
0856 000 -11.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
0835 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0832 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0825 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
0822 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
0803 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000

So from the above we see that now I'm logging map point '10' for the column I want to be in. So I know the UTEC is in control and yet even with running super rich I'm still getting some knock and of course the utec is retarding. EDIT: But now that I look at it after posting, the knock did seem to drop off quite a bit when the UTEC controls and dumps fuel compared to the ECU controlling.

What is odd with all this is the knock seems to really happen from like 1k to 3k distincitvely. After 3k it really drops off and I dont see much knock after 3k (maybe an event here or there sporadicaly) but no where near the frequency off UTEC control.

If you wondering, no i dont have a WB (yes I know, that will be addressed sooner or later) but right now I'm pretty positive it would be reading rich with the sheer amount of fumes being dumped out the back (i'm also on stock exhaust with stock cats so that gas is going through quite a few filters and yet still makes the environmental air pretty flammable).

One of the most obvious things is am I hearing knock? Kind of a hard quesiton to answer as when free-revving no I dont hear any. But that weird sound I'm hearing (mix between air hissing and buzzing) I can sometimes hear audibly from within the cab driving and I've heard knock before and this doesn't quite sound like it.

So from there, sorry for this extremely long post guys 'n gals but any suggestions on what to look at would be great but one of the reasons for this post was:

What happened to the injector scaling in UTEC v2.8? On mine v2.8d(c) under open loop fueling (or any of the other params) there is no injector scaling options anymore. Instead of the original options you got in 2.3 it just says "for future use" in those two lines where it used to be. I tried searching, but didn't really hit any results on here, and the user guide still has it as options even thought it's no longer there. Their docs need some TLC.

Thanks for any possible insite into wth happened to injector scaling, or any other suggestions.

The unknowns for me currently are:
1.) possible injector crapping out causing one cyl to knock possibly from maybe lean
2.) injector scaling? (what happened, where'd it go with 2.8 or maybe i'm missing some obvious RTFM entry saying what happened to it)
3.) false knock due to some mechanical possiblity
4.) astronomical odds that its bad gas, if it is i'm heading to buy a powerball ticket bitches!
5.) Possible bad ground on the UTEC
6.) God hates me, so I should take a shot and drive into the sunset till it blows

Juztin · 06-29-2008, 11:22 AM

And lastly log wise, if your wondering what it looks like under boost here's one of the "roughest" runs that actually logged knock when in boost:

5678 077 +0.8 00 +17.5 rich 00000
5797 082 +2.2 10 +17.2 rich 00000
5889 087 +3.3 20 +16.3 rich 00000
5952 093 +3.9 20 +16.0 rich 00000
6082 097 +4.2 30 +15.9 rich 00000
6195 101 +4.3 30 +15.7 rich 00000
6230 103 +4.4 30 +15.6 rich 00000
6325 103 +4.4 30 +15.8 rich 00000
6472 103 +4.7 30 +16.2 rich 00000
6535 103 +4.7 30 +16.5 rich 00000
6640 102 +4.5 30 +16.2 rich 00000
6680 102 +4.8 30 +16.4 rich 00000
6747 102 +4.8 30 +16.2 rich 00000
6734 102 +5.0 30 +16.3 rich 00000
6747 010 +4.1 30 +17.0 rich 00000
6485 000 -3.8 10 ECU. rich 00000
6161 000 -7.5 10 ECU. rich 00000
6093 000 -8.6 10 ECU. rich 00000
5602 052 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000
4761 096 -2.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
4923 105 +1.6 10 +9.4 rich 00026
4930 104 +2.5 20 +7.5 rich 00026
4930 104 +3.3 20 +7.6 rich 00000
5065 105 +3.9 30 +15.5 rich 00000
5089 105 +4.2 30 +15.3 rich 00000
5184 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5224 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5299 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5359 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5385 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5420 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5500 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5546 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5602 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5668 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5688 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5777 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5827 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5817 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5941 104 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5963 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000
6016 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
6071 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
6127 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
6195 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6161 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6230 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6277 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6325 103 +4.5 30 +15.3 rich 00000
6361 103 +4.7 30 +15.4 rich 00000
6422 103 +4.8 30 +15.5 rich 00000
6422 103 +4.8 30 +15.7 rich 00000
6535 103 +4.7 30 +15.9 rich 00000
6548 103 +4.5 30 +15.9 rich 00000
6626 103 +4.5 30 +15.9 rich 00000
6666 103 +4.8 30 +16.0 rich 00000
6680 103 +4.7 30 +15.7 rich 00000
6666 083 +5.0 30 +15.6 rich 00000
6706 026 +1.9 10 +19.4 rich 00001
6720 025 -3.0 10 ECU. rich 00000
6523 072 -3.5 10 ECU. rich 00000
6600 104 +2.0 10 +18.9 rich 00000
6027 104 +3.3 20 +15.7 rich 00001
5274 104 +4.3 30 +15.2 rich 00000
5473 105 +4.3 30 +15.2 rich 00001
5411 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00001
5464 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5500 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5518 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5564 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5602 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5602 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5640 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5649 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5707 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5698 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5777 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5737 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5817 104 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5899 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5817 103 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5931 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5920 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5931 102 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5995 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5984 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6038 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6071 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6093 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6093 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6150 102 +4.5 30 +14.8 rich 00000
6184 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6195 101 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6195 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000
6242 101 +4.8 30 +15.0 rich 00000
6277 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000
6289 101 +4.9 30 +14.8 rich 00000
6289 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000
6325 101 +4.7 30 +15.1 rich 00000
6361 101 +4.7 30 +15.4 rich 00000
6301 101 +4.5 30 +15.4 rich 00000
6397 101 +4.4 30 +15.4 rich 00000
6385 101 +4.5 30 +15.4 rich 00000
6447 101 +4.7 30 +15.6 rich 00000
6447 101 +4.8 30 +15.5 rich 00000
6397 100 +4.7 30 +15.8 rich 00000
6523 100 +4.7 30 +16.0 rich 00000
6523 101 +4.5 30 +16.0 rich 00000
6510 101 +4.4 30 +16.0 rich 00000
6485 101 +4.4 30 +16.0 rich 00000
6535 101 +4.5 30 +16.1 rich 00001
6613 095 +4.5 30 +16.1 rich 00001
6561 075 +4.2 30 +16.2 rich 00000
6858 084 +3.5 20 +16.1 rich 00000
6734 095 +3.8 20 +16.7 rich 00001
6265 104 +3.4 20 +15.7 rich 00000
5583 105 +4.0 30 +15.4 rich 00000
5175 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000
5241 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5257 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5282 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5257 104 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000
5307 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5274 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5341 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5324 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00001
5350 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5385 098 +4.5 30 +14.8 rich 00000
5402 097 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5402 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5437 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5402 100 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5455 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5446 097 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00001
5455 096 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5482 094 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5518 079 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000
5411 000 +1.4 10 +17.0 rich 00000
5402 000 -5.3 10 ECU. rich 00000
5411 000 -8.1 10 ECU. rich 00000
5367 000 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000
5307 000 -9.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
5367 000 -10.1 00 ECU. rich 00000
5367 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5341 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5299 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5291 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5216 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5241 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5265 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5265 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5249 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5192 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5144 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5192 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5144 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
5073 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
5120 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5096 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
5050 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5058 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5050 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
5035 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
5012 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4952 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
5012 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4967 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4967 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4930 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4982 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4880 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4909 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
4880 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4901 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4901 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4894 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4830 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4852 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4852 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4837 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4830 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4796 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4789 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4748 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4796 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4755 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4789 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4728 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4741 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4755 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4721 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4708 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4688 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4668 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4701 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4662 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4655 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4616 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4629 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4642 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4553 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4559 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4578 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4610 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
4597 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000
4182 011 -9.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
4235 016 -9.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4273 019 -8.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4278 018 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
4317 016 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
4257 009 -8.2 00 ECU. rich 00000
4230 007 -8.9 00 ECU. rich 00000
4214 012 -9.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4368 022 -9.2 00 ECU. rich 00000
4257 026 -7.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
4345 031 -5.9 00 ECU. rich 00000
4273 032 -5.2 00 ECU. rich 00000
4268 040 -4.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
4345 049 -4.0 00 ECU. rich 00000
4368 055 -3.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
4426 063 -2.6 00 ECU. rich 00000
4662 066 -1.9 00 ECU. rich 00000
4480 066 -1.5 00 ECU. rich 00000
4535 071 -1.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
4597 082 -0.3 00 ECU. rich 00000

Granted there's a few lines in the above with a few 2x count knock entries per line for 2 lines but, at this point I'm not sure if this is a cascading effect from the off boost knock. But that's one of the roughest knock runs that I could log, the rest might have 00001 or 2 knock counts barely but otherwise minimal knock when under boost. Hmmm. >_>

In case your wondering about the boost, the aps kit (tt) wasn't making more than 4psi with the fully stock exhuast so we put an mbc on it to coax a max of about 6.7psi out of it on the UTEC MAP, any more and it didnt make any more power just knock so we dialed back. 350/370 was the power/tq, and for me that's more than enough provided I can clear up this damn knock. (I didnt tune it, the guy that did tuned my previous 350z to 500whp/tq on a utec version 2.3, so I'm not second guessing his ability by any means).

When I first got the car back I also dont remember it hesitating under boost or anything, but damn being in the shift_probs club really reminds me how much I didn't miss it haha.

gothchick · 06-30-2008, 07:04 AM

I'd get a wideband so I wouldn't have to guess what's going on with the tune. It's really hard to diagnose a log without AFRs...

As a general rule, a 1-count knock is generally not consided real knock, as it can be mechanical noise, valve train, etc. But for me personally, I consider a string of 1-counts, or anything more than a 1-count to be real knock.

The TXS Tuner Pro is pretty neat cause it comes with a head-phone jack so you can listen for knock much better. The TXS Tuner Reg is what I have, and it is great for logging etc, but doesn't have all the bells & whistles that the Pro has...

This last log snippette looks pretty severe:

6747 102 +4.8 30 +16.2 rich 00000
6734 102 +5.0 30 +16.3 rich 00000
6747 010 +4.1 30 +17.0 rich 00000
6485 000 -3.8 10 ECU. rich 00000
6161 000 -7.5 10 ECU. rich 00000
6093 000 -8.6 10 ECU. rich 00000
5602 052 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000
4761 096 -2.8 00 ECU. rich 00000
4923 105 +1.6 10 +9.4 rich 00026
4930 104 +2.5 20 +7.5 rich 00026
4930 104 +3.3 20 +7.6 rich 00000
5065 105 +3.9 30 +15.5 rich 00000

This looks like a clear case of shift knock to me. This can generally be cleaned up by adding fuel to the 10% column in that rpm range.

A 26 knock count is pretty damn severe. Like engine-damaging severe. If I were you, I would get this fixed asap before you start snapping/ folding rods, hammering rod bearings, or chipping piston ring lands. Even shift-knock can be detrimental to an engine.

As for the first log with the string of 4-count and 6-count knocks... Since you don't have a wideband, I'd just add a little fuel and/or back off the timing a bit and see if that helps. If not, you probably have carbon build up or have internal damage.

Edit: Maybe you could also try a step colder set of plugs.

athenG · 06-30-2008, 09:09 AM

First post your Knock Setting so we can see if it is setup to high. Second please use logger 1 since that contains more information when logging. We need to see what the Stock ECU ignition is doing. 3rd not sure if you have a wideband (it will be foolish to tune without it), if you do then use UTI or MPS to do you logging so we can also see your A/F.

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 09:11 AM

thanks for the feedback gothchick. I'm going to modify the 00 column in the tune as it looks like a lot of fuel was removed via the maf offsets and put fuel back and see if that clears up any of the off boost knock I'm seeing while in site '00'. I'll revisit the other load sites and add fuel reduce timing in those points as well to see if that clears up any shift knock. But at this point as well, I'll do a leakdown/comp test to see if that indicates any issues which at this point wouldn't be suprising.

Thanks for your contrib athenG, i'll do that as well once I get a chance to.

athenG · 06-30-2008, 09:18 AM

how do you know if it is the A/F that is causing the knock on the 0 column? What is your crossover point? To many variables here that you are missing... I used to have problem with knock at ECU control and adding more fuel didn't fix it. I had problem with knock around 2500-3000rpm so I had to to adjust my Open Loop crossover to -1 instead of 0 psi and that fix the problem. Sometimes there is a delay between the transition from ECU to Utec. Like I said it will be FOOLISH to attempt to tune without a wideband. Scaling the 0 column sometimes wont fix it because the ECU is still controlling the Timing and that could be the culprit. Please use logger 1 again coz your log is incomplete for us to make an assumption.

gothchick · 06-30-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juztin

thanks for the feedback gothchick. I'm going to modify the 00 column in the tune as it looks like a lot of fuel was removed via the maf offsets and put fuel back and see if that clears up any of the off boost knock I'm seeing while in site '00'. I'll revisit the other load sites and add fuel reduce timing in those points as well to see if that clears up any shift knock. But at this point as well, I'll do a leakdown/comp test to see if that indicates any issues which at this point wouldn't be suprising.

Thanks for your contrib athenG, i'll do that as well once I get a chance to.

0% column??? Nobody advised you to adjust that.... The 0% column means there is no load on the engine, which means the ECU is in closed loop, which means UTEC adjustments will not take affect when the ECU is in closed loop. Also as AthenG stated, Logger 1 gives a more complete picture of the log. Plus - Why on earth are you driving an FI car without a wideband? Maybe you should just take this to a tuner...

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 12:22 PM

will use logger 1, all the knock is happening under the 00 column (if you look at my earlier logs the knock are under the '00'). the map crossover is set to -2 vac. As for driving around, aint happening, those logs I took from when I was originally doing boost data logging and noticed the in-boost knock. That is not my concern currently, my concern is the off-boost and in ECU control knock that I am seeing. But long story short I aint doing any boost logs anytime soon for obvious reasons

gothchick, adjusting anything but the 00 column at this point would be futile as those columns never come into play where I am seeing all that knock. If you look back at the logs you will see the rpms are less than 3k, and it's all under vacuum and not boost when am seeing the many knock events all registered under the '00' map/load point being used. Those are what I am most concerned with, I can get the in-boost knock addressed, but the off-boost where the ECU is controlling timing is where i'm really seeing the knock that I am talkinga bout in this thread. Hence why I am looking at adding fuel into the 00 clumn on the offset entries. My approach to this if I make any changes is to only add fuel and never take any away, and only retard/not advance timing. But of course I can wait with this till I get the car on a dyno with a tail sniffer before making any changes and doing any more logging so it will be much more beneifical to this thread. Thanks for the input guys 'n gals.

athenG · 06-30-2008, 01:10 PM

What is your min/max Map value and what RPM does Utec take over? please post your Knock Settings so we can at least see if it is to high. Like I said before we need to see what the stock ECU ignition is trying to do.

gothchick · 06-30-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juztin

will use logger 1, all the knock is happening under the 00 column (if you look at my earlier logs the knock are under the '00'). the map crossover is set to -2 vac. As for driving around, aint happening, those logs I took from when I was originally doing boost data logging and noticed the in-boost knock. That is not my concern currently, my concern is the off-boost and in ECU control knock that I am seeing. But long story short I aint doing any boost logs anytime soon for obvious reasons

gothchick, adjusting anything but the 00 column at this point would be futile as those columns never come into play where I am seeing all that knock. If you look back at the logs you will see the rpms are less than 3k, and it's all under vacuum and not boost when am seeing the many knock events all registered under the '00' map/load point being used. Those are what I am most concerned with, I can get the in-boost knock addressed, but the off-boost where the ECU is controlling timing is where i'm really seeing the knock that I am talkinga bout in this thread. Hence why I am looking at adding fuel into the 00 clumn on the offset entries. My approach to this if I make any changes is to only add fuel and never take any away, and only retard/not advance timing. But of course I can wait with this till I get the car on a dyno with a tail sniffer before making any changes and doing any more logging so it will be much more beneifical to this thread. Thanks for the input guys 'n gals.

Yeah, since you're having the problem in closed loop in that first log (before UTEC transistions to open loop), you'll have to get the ECU flashed. Until UTEC tranistions to open loop, it doesn't have any control over the engine... It's all ECU at that point.

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 05:06 PM

As requested -

Knock Constants:

Special Constants (map thresh):

And some 1 logger data:

Code:

                    Load Knock                       Mod   Mod      Mod  
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count   Inj#1 Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel     MAF  
       psia  V   %                  mS  deg   duty   deg    %       V   
  798 -10.4 1.39   0  00    00    2.25 +14.4    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  824 -10.3 1.39   0  00    00    2.40 +13.5    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
  839 -10.3 1.39   0  00    00    2.44 +13.4    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  877 -10.3 1.41   0  00    00    2.36 +12.5    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  903 -10.3 1.37   0  00    00    2.36 +10.4    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  920 -10.3 1.41   0  00    00    2.34  +8.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
  933 -10.3 1.39   0  00    00    2.31  +8.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  967 -10.4 1.39   0  00    00    2.27  +8.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  969 -10.4 1.41   0  00    00    2.27  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  965 -10.5 1.39   0  00    00    2.24  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  968 -10.6 1.37   0  00    00    2.19  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
  972 -10.4 1.39   0  00    00    2.17  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  965 -10.6 1.39   0  00    00    2.15  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
  968 -10.6 1.37   0  00    00    2.14  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  961 -10.6 1.35   0  00    00    2.14  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  952 -10.7 1.37   0  00    00    2.14  +7.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  947 -10.7 1.35   0  00    00    2.13  +7.7    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  932 -10.7 1.33   0  00    00    2.13  +8.7    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  948 -10.7 1.35   1  00    00    2.13  +8.7    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  941 -10.7 1.37   5  00    00    2.03 +32.7    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.31
  966 -10.5 1.54   7  00    00    2.07 +34.7    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 1000 -10.1 1.56   7  00    00    2.19 +34.4    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.29
 1045  -9.8 1.68   7  00    00    2.22 +34.4    1.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 1125  -9.6 1.66   7  00    00    2.14 +34.4    1.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 1181  -9.5 1.66   7  00    00    2.08 +35.5    1.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 1225  -9.5 1.64   7  00    00    2.06 +36.5    2.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 1262  -9.5 1.66   7  00    00    2.08 +35.6    2.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 1287  -9.7 1.62   7  00    00    2.02 +35.5    2.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.31
 1331  -9.7 1.64   7  00    00    1.97 +36.5    2.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.31
 1347  -9.8 1.72   7  00    00    1.93 +37.6    2.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 1368  -9.8 1.70   7  00    00    1.92 +37.5    2.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.37
 1386  -9.8 1.76   8  00    00    1.93 +37.5    2.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.41
 1395  -9.6 1.76   8  00    00    1.96 +37.5    2.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.41
 1394  -9.6 1.82  10  00    00    2.01 +37.5    2.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.43
 1422  -9.5 1.80  11  00    00    2.03 +37.5    2.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.49
 1455  -9.4 1.82  10  00    00    2.06 +37.5    2.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.49
 1502  -9.2 1.80  11  00    00    2.09 +38.5    2.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.49
 1526  -9.1 1.86  10  00    00    2.10 +38.5    2.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.56
 1549  -8.9 1.94  10  00    00    2.23 +38.4    2.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 1596  -9.0 1.90  11  00    00    2.30 +38.5    2.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.52
 1671  -9.0 1.86  11  00    00    2.30 +37.4    3.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 1761  -9.1 1.94  11  00    00    2.25 +38.4    3.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 1835  -9.4 1.88  11  00    00    2.26 +39.5    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 1889  -9.5 1.92  11  00    00    2.19 +39.5    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 1934  -9.5 1.96  11  00    00    2.13 +40.4    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 1988  -9.6 2.00  11  00    00    2.17 +40.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2036  -9.6 1.98  11  00    00    2.10 +39.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2097  -9.6 2.00  11  00    00    2.05 +40.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2123  -9.6 2.00  11  00    00    2.06 +40.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2158  -9.7 1.98  11  00    00    2.02 +41.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2180  -9.7 2.07  11  00    02    2.01 +41.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2207  -9.8 2.00  12  00    02    2.06 +41.4    3.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 2219  -9.8 2.07  12  00    00    1.98 +41.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2235  -9.8 2.01  12  00    00    2.00 +41.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 2214  -9.9 2.07  12  00    01    2.01 +41.5    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2252  -9.9 2.09  12  00    01    2.03 +41.4    3.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2261  -9.9 2.03  12  00    01    2.08 +41.4    3.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2278 -10.0 2.03  12  00    01    2.01 +41.6    3.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2302 -10.0 2.05  12  00    01    2.05 +41.4    3.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2308 -10.1 2.05  12  00    01    2.07 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2345 -10.1 2.11  12  00    01    2.05 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2349 -10.1 2.07  12  00    05    2.06 +41.3    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.70
 2384 -10.3 2.13  12  00    05    2.07 +42.4    4.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2406 -10.3 2.09  12  00    02    2.10 +42.4    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2447 -10.4 2.03  12  00    02    2.06 +41.3    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2470 -10.4 2.09  12  00    03    2.04 +41.3    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2496 -10.4 2.07  12  00    02    2.07 +41.3    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.70
 2504 -10.4 2.13  12  00    03    2.07 +41.3    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2566 -10.4 2.11  12  00    03    2.05 +41.4    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2606 -10.4 2.13  12  00    01    2.03 +41.4    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.70
 2626 -10.4 2.15  12  00    03    2.05 +41.4    4.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2679 -10.4 2.07  11  00    02    2.03 +42.3    4.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.70
 2714 -10.4 2.17  11  00    02    2.06 +42.4    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2759 -10.4 2.11  11  00    06    2.07 +42.3    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2777 -10.5 2.17  11  00    04    2.04 +43.4    4.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2829 -10.5 2.13  11  00    02    2.05 +42.4    4.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2849 -10.5 2.13  11  00    02    2.00 +42.3    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2891 -10.6 2.11  11  00    02    1.98 +42.4    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2871 -10.7 2.11  10  00    05    1.97 +42.4    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2886 -10.8 2.07   9  00    05    1.94 +42.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2901 -10.9 2.05   8  00    07    1.90 +42.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2929 -11.0 2.03   8  00    05    1.90 +42.2    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 2934 -11.2 2.01   8  00    04    1.83 +41.2    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 2893 -11.2 1.98   8  00    09    1.81 +42.4    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2886 -11.3 2.00   7  00    06    1.82 +42.3    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 2876 -11.4 1.86   0  00    04    1.77 +42.4    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.47
 2787 -11.7 1.66   0  00    04    1.53 +19.3    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 2681 -12.0 1.68   0  00    04    1.52 +18.3    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.37
 2552 -12.0 1.70   0  00    01    1.53 +18.3    3.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.39
 2426 -12.2 1.66   0  00    01    1.55 +16.4    3.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 2302 -12.2 1.64   0  00    02    1.56 +11.4    2.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 2175 -12.2 1.58   0  00    00    1.56  +6.5    2.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.29
 2038 -12.0 1.52   0  00    01    1.55  +0.5    2.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
 1897 -11.8 1.54   0  00    02    0.48  -5.3    0.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.29
 1755 -11.8 1.50   0  00    02    0.48  -6.5    0.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
 1611 -11.8 1.37   0  00    00    0.46  -5.3    0.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.09
 1467 -11.8 1.37   0  00    00    1.57  -5.2    2.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
 1348 -11.8 1.33   0  00    00    1.54 +14.9    1.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.07
 1280 -11.8 1.37   0  00    00    1.56 +14.5    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.07
 1176 -11.8 1.37   0  00    00    1.55 +14.5    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
 1090 -11.7 1.37   0  00    00    1.55 +15.0    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.07
  993 -11.5 1.37   0  00    00    1.56 +15.0    1.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  900 -11.3 1.33   0  00    00    1.77 +15.0    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  836 -11.0 1.37   0  00    00    1.77 +14.6    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  836 -10.8 1.35   0  00    00    1.98 +14.6    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  833 -10.7 1.37   0  00    00    2.11 +14.6    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.2

rcdash · 06-30-2008, 05:11 PM

Knock at vacuum isn't real knock. It just doesn't happen as cylinder pressures are too low to generate enough heat. Look for the stock ECU pulling timing to see where real knock is.

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 05:17 PM

And here is a 1 logger of me bringing the rpms up into the 3-4k rpm power band. Note how the knock falls completely off... hrmmm -_-

Code:

                    Load Knock                       Mod   Mod      Mod  
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count   Inj#1 Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel     MAF  
       psia  V   %                  mS  deg   duty   deg    %       V   
1836 -10.0 1.86  11  00    00    2.02 +39.5    3.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.56
 1870 -10.0 1.94  11  00    00    2.02 +39.4    3.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 1888  -9.9 1.98  11  00    00    2.09 +39.5    3.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.60
 1923  -9.8 1.94  11  00    00    2.10 +40.4    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 1964  -9.8 1.96  11  00    01    2.09 +40.5    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2005  -9.7 1.96  11  00    01    2.15 +40.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2038  -9.7 2.00  11  00    00    2.09 +39.4    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 2093  -9.7 2.00  12  00    00    2.06 +40.5    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 2115  -9.7 2.01  12  00    00    2.00 +40.5    3.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2116  -9.7 2.00  12  00    01    2.07 +40.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2149  -9.7 2.01  12  00    00    2.04 +40.3    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2180  -9.7 2.00  12  00    01    2.06 +41.3    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2207  -9.8 2.05  12  00    01    2.01 +41.4    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2222  -9.8 2.05  12  00    01    2.03 +41.5    3.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2246  -9.9 2.09  12  00    01    2.03 +41.4    3.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2273  -9.9 2.00  12  00    00    2.06 +41.4    3.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.62
 2302  -9.9 2.05  12  00    01    2.03 +41.4    3.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2314  -9.9 2.11  12  00    01    2.05 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2314 -10.0 2.05  11  00    02    2.06 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2318 -10.0 2.05  11  00    01    2.03 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2350 -10.0 2.01  11  00    01    2.04 +41.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2375 -10.1 2.11  11  00    01    2.04 +42.4    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2392 -10.3 2.09  11  00    01    2.06 +42.3    4.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2411 -10.3 2.03  12  00    02    2.05 +41.3    4.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.64
 2434 -10.4 2.07  12  00    01    2.06 +41.3    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2442 -10.4 2.07  12  00    03    2.06 +41.5    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2485 -10.4 2.05  12  00    02    2.06 +41.3    4.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2508 -10.4 2.09  11  00    02    2.05 +41.3    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2536 -10.4 2.03  11  00    01    2.10 +41.4    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2574 -10.4 2.11  11  00    01    2.06 +41.3    4.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2594 -10.4 2.11  11  00    03    2.06 +41.3    4.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2653 -10.4 2.15  11  00    03    2.11 +42.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2701 -10.4 2.07  11  00    02    2.04 +42.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2736 -10.4 2.13  11  00    03    2.03 +42.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2775 -10.4 2.09  11  00    01    2.01 +43.3    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.66
 2794 -10.5 2.09  11  00    04    2.01 +43.3    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 2839 -10.5 2.15  11  00    03    2.01 +42.2    4.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2851 -10.6 2.17  11  00    02    2.02 +42.3    4.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2898 -10.6 2.21  11  00    01    2.01 +42.2    4.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2913 -10.6 2.13  12  00    04    2.05 +41.3    4.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 2960 -10.6 2.15  12  00    03    2.02 +41.3    4.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2973 -10.7 2.17  11  00    04    2.02 +41.3    4.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 2981 -10.7 2.19  12  00    08    2.01 +41.3    4.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 2992 -10.7 2.13  12  00    07    2.10 +41.3    5.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3038 -10.7 2.17  12  00    06    2.04 +41.4    5.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.80
 3080 -10.7 2.23  12  00    06    2.04 +41.3    5.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 3103 -10.7 2.17  12  00    00    2.06 +41.3    5.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3126 -10.7 2.21  12  00    00    2.15 +41.2    5.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3162 -10.6 2.25  12  00    00    2.05 +41.2    5.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3192 -10.6 2.29  12  00    00    2.14 +40.2    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3245 -10.6 2.27  12  00    00    2.14 +41.3    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3271 -10.5 2.31  12  00    00    2.15 +41.3    5.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3326 -10.5 2.23  12  00    00    2.12 +41.2    5.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3340 -10.6 2.27  12  00    00    2.09 +42.2    5.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3394 -10.7 2.21  11  00    00    2.05 +42.2    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3408 -10.8 2.23  11  00    00    2.04 +41.4    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 3436 -10.8 2.15  11  00    00    1.99 +41.2    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3425 -10.9 2.23  11  00    00    1.97 +41.1    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3418 -10.9 2.19  11  00    00    1.94 +41.2    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.82
 3465 -10.8 2.17  11  00    00    1.98 +41.3    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3450 -10.9 2.23  10  00    00    1.96 +40.1    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.80
 3475 -10.9 2.19  10  00    00    1.92 +40.2    5.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3443 -10.9 2.23  10  00    00    1.96 +40.3    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3479 -10.9 2.23  10  00    00    1.97 +40.3    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3494 -10.9 2.19  10  00    00    1.98 +40.3    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.80
 3497 -11.0 2.25  11  00    00    1.97 +41.2    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.74
 3494 -11.0 2.21  11  00    00    1.94 +41.1    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3479 -11.0 2.21  10  00    00    1.91 +41.2    5.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.80
 3519 -11.0 2.21  11  00    00    1.96 +41.2    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3505 -11.0 2.17  10  00    00    1.93 +41.2    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3531 -11.0 2.17  10  00    00    1.91 +41.2    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 3531 -11.0 2.23   9  00    00    1.89 +41.2    5.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 3527 -11.0 2.15   7  00    00    1.91 +41.3    5.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.70
 3508 -11.3 2.07   2  00    00    1.78 +41.3    5.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 3439 -11.7 1.86   0  00    00    1.56 +19.3    4.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.52
 3306 -11.9 1.86   0  00    00    1.55 +19.2    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.47
 3174 -12.0 1.84   0  00    00    1.56 +18.2    4.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.47
 3038 -12.0 1.78   0  00    00    1.55 +16.3    3.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.39
 2921 -12.0 1.76   0  00    00    1.54 +12.3    3.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.43
 2766 -12.2 1.74   0  00    03    1.53 +10.3    3.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.41
 2594 -12.2 1.68   0  00    03    1.53  +5.5    3.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.31
 2472 -12.2 1.68   0  00    02    0.47  -1.7    0.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 2322 -12.2 1.66   0  00    02    0.48  -2.5    0.9 ECU.   +0.0     1.35
 2163 -11.9 1.64   0  00    02    0.48  -3.5    0.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.33
 2025 -11.9 1.62   0  00    02    0.48  -4.4    0.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
 1888 -11.7 1.56   0  00    00    0.48  -5.5    0.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.27
 1759 -11.7 1.54   0  00    00    0.48  -6.2    0.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
 1615 -11.7 1.41   0  00    00    0.46  -5.4    0.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.13
 1476 -11.8 1.39   0  00    00    0.92  +6.7    1.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.13
 1335 -11.7 1.35   0  00    00    1.57 +14.7    1.7 ECU.   +0.0     1.07
 1256 -11.8 1.37   0  00    00    1.57 +14.8    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
 1167 -11.7 1.39   0  00    00    1.56 +14.8    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
 1068 -11.6 1.35   0  00    00    1.56 +14.9    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
  966 -11.5 1.41   0  00    00    1.56 +14.8    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.11
  886 -11.3 1.39   0  00    00    1.66 +13.7    1.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  844 -11.0 1.39   0  00    00    1.88 +13.8    1.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.23
  832 -10.8 1.39   0  00    00    2.10 +14.6    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.21
  837 -10.7 1.31   0  00    00    2.10 +14.6    1.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.17
  876 -10.6 1.37   0  00    00    2.14 +14.4    1.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.25
  884 -10.5 1.41   0  00    00    2.22 +14.5    1.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.25

Here is a screen cap of my fuel map in the 0% column:

My timing map for the 0% column is set to ECU for the whole column.

FYI, I'm running APS's 500cc injectors.

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcdash

Knock at vacuum isn't real knock. It just doesn't happen as cylinder pressures are too low to generate enough heat. Look for the stock ECU pulling timing to see where real knock is.

If that's the case, then has anyone else noted a lot of small count knock events when free-revving the motor from 1-3k rpms or also when driving around between those rpms and seeing the knock entries? Be great if someone else can check theirs with the utec with the same version of software i got.

athenG · 06-30-2008, 06:06 PM

that is your first problem, your knock setting is to high. Try 100 at 1000-2000rpm and 95 at 2000-3000rpm, 75-80 at 3000-4000rpm, 70-75 at 4000-5000rpm and 65 at 5000-6000rpm. Your stock ECU isn't pulling timing so I doubt it is true knock. -2 is your Map min value, what is your map/psi crossover for your Open Loop fueling? try -3, my map min value is 1 and I had to set the open loop crossover to -1 to eliminate my ECU knock problem (I had 0 before).

Juztin · 06-30-2008, 08:56 PM

nice call athenG, I did:

100, 95, 80, 75, 65 now my logs look a billion times cleaner.

I also modified my min map to be -3, i originally did -4 but during idle free revs it was kicking in and causing some stutter (no knock), just fuel. So i dialed back to -3 and did some boost transition short runs and the logs are very clean now. I still need to do some boost points touched up by my tuner but overall with -3 as the min it looks to have helped quite a bit. I'll need to address the 10% column later on the in between shifts but hey man I aint complaining at this point.

Here's the latest log to give you an example:

Code:

                    Load Knock                       Mod   Mod      Mod  
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count   Inj#1 Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel     MAF  
       psia  V   %                  mS  deg   duty   deg    %       V   
  887  -9.4 1.68   9  00    00    2.72 +32.9    2.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.50
  931  -8.8 1.72  11  00    00    2.72 +31.4    2.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
  978  -8.2 1.86  13  00    00    3.07 +30.8    2.3 ECU.   +0.0     1.68
 1075  -7.6 1.92  13  00    00    3.45 +30.0    2.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.54
 1066  -7.1 1.98  14  00    00    3.57 +31.7    3.1 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 1131  -6.7 2.00  15  00    00    3.56 +31.2    3.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.58
 1165  -6.3 2.11  17  00    00    3.67 +31.4    3.4 ECU.   +0.0     1.72
 1257  -5.7 2.21  18  00    00    3.91 +32.1    4.0 ECU.   +0.0     1.76
 1331  -5.2 2.29  19  00    00    3.91 +33.6    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 1384  -5.1 2.27  20  00    00    4.02 +33.7    4.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.78
 1465  -5.0 2.27  20  00    00    4.15 +33.3    4.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.86
 1581  -5.1 2.31  20  00    00    4.06 +33.3    5.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.92
 1663  -5.4 2.33  20  00    00    4.19 +34.5    5.6 ECU.   +0.0     1.92
 1751  -5.6 2.31  20  00    00    4.19 +34.5    5.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.88
 1826  -5.7 2.39  21  00    00    4.17 +35.5    6.1 ECU.   +0.0     2.01
 1921  -5.4 2.54  22  00    00    4.34 +34.4    6.8 ECU.   +0.0     2.09
 2027  -5.1 2.50  22  00    00    4.47 +34.4    7.3 ECU.   +0.0     2.03
 2091  -5.1 2.56  21  00    00    4.22 +35.5    7.2 ECU.   +0.0     2.05
 2164  -5.4 2.50  21  00    00    4.04 +35.4    7.1 ECU.   +0.0     2.00
 2261  -5.8 2.54  21  00    00    3.89 +36.4    7.2 ECU.   +0.0     2.07
 2354  -6.0 2.58  21  00    00    3.84 +38.4    7.3 ECU.   +0.0     2.13
 2434  -6.0 2.70  21  00    00    4.06 +38.4    8.1 ECU.   +0.0     2.13
 2511  -6.0 2.68  21  00    00    4.01 +38.3    8.2 ECU.   +0.0     2.15
 2579  -6.1 2.64  22  00    00    4.05 +39.5    8.6 ECU.   +0.0     2.15
 2675  -5.9 2.76  23  00    00    4.14 +38.3    9.1 ECU.   +0.0     2.25
 2775  -5.9 2.80  23  00    00    4.30 +38.4    9.7 ECU.   +0.0     2.27
 2861  -5.8 2.78  23  00    00    4.25 +37.4    9.9 ECU.   +0.0     2.21
 2949  -5.9 2.80  24  00    00    4.10 +37.3    9.7 ECU.   +0.0     2.31
 3033  -6.0 2.84  24  00    00    4.21 +37.3   10.4 ECU.   +0.0     2.31
 3121  -6.0 2.90  23  00    00    4.43 +37.3   11.2 ECU.   +0.0     2.33
 3202  -6.0 2.94  23  00    00    4.39 +37.2   11.5 ECU.   +0.0     2.45
 3284  -5.9 2.98  21  00    00    4.34 +37.1   11.5 ECU.   +0.0     2.33
 3363  -6.6 2.60  14  00    00    3.90 +39.3   10.6 ECU.   +0.0     2.03
 3387  -8.4 2.13   0  00    00    2.77 +33.3    7.5 ECU.   +0.0     1.54
 3367 -10.3 1.90   0  00    00    1.77 +34.3    4.8 ECU.   +0.0     1.54
 3313 -11.2 1.86   0  00    00    1.57 +23.2    4.2 ECU.   +0.0     1.49
 3226 -11.6 1.86   0  00    00    1.57 +33.2    4.1 ECU.   +0.0

06-29-2008, 11:22 AM	#2
Juztin Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,706 iTrader: (7)	And lastly log wise, if your wondering what it looks like under boost here's one of the "roughest" runs that actually logged knock when in boost: 5678 077 +0.8 00 +17.5 rich 00000 5797 082 +2.2 10 +17.2 rich 00000 5889 087 +3.3 20 +16.3 rich 00000 5952 093 +3.9 20 +16.0 rich 00000 6082 097 +4.2 30 +15.9 rich 00000 6195 101 +4.3 30 +15.7 rich 00000 6230 103 +4.4 30 +15.6 rich 00000 6325 103 +4.4 30 +15.8 rich 00000 6472 103 +4.7 30 +16.2 rich 00000 6535 103 +4.7 30 +16.5 rich 00000 6640 102 +4.5 30 +16.2 rich 00000 6680 102 +4.8 30 +16.4 rich 00000 6747 102 +4.8 30 +16.2 rich 00000 6734 102 +5.0 30 +16.3 rich 00000 6747 010 +4.1 30 +17.0 rich 00000 6485 000 -3.8 10 ECU. rich 00000 6161 000 -7.5 10 ECU. rich 00000 6093 000 -8.6 10 ECU. rich 00000 5602 052 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000 4761 096 -2.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 4923 105 +1.6 10 +9.4 rich 00026 4930 104 +2.5 20 +7.5 rich 00026 4930 104 +3.3 20 +7.6 rich 00000 5065 105 +3.9 30 +15.5 rich 00000 5089 105 +4.2 30 +15.3 rich 00000 5184 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5224 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5299 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5359 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5385 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5420 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5500 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5546 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5602 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5668 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5688 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5777 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5827 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5817 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5941 104 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5963 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000 6016 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 6071 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 6127 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 6195 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6161 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6230 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6277 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6325 103 +4.5 30 +15.3 rich 00000 6361 103 +4.7 30 +15.4 rich 00000 6422 103 +4.8 30 +15.5 rich 00000 6422 103 +4.8 30 +15.7 rich 00000 6535 103 +4.7 30 +15.9 rich 00000 6548 103 +4.5 30 +15.9 rich 00000 6626 103 +4.5 30 +15.9 rich 00000 6666 103 +4.8 30 +16.0 rich 00000 6680 103 +4.7 30 +15.7 rich 00000 6666 083 +5.0 30 +15.6 rich 00000 6706 026 +1.9 10 +19.4 rich 00001 6720 025 -3.0 10 ECU. rich 00000 6523 072 -3.5 10 ECU. rich 00000 6600 104 +2.0 10 +18.9 rich 00000 6027 104 +3.3 20 +15.7 rich 00001 5274 104 +4.3 30 +15.2 rich 00000 5473 105 +4.3 30 +15.2 rich 00001 5411 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00001 5464 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5500 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5518 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5564 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5602 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5602 105 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5640 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5649 104 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5707 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5698 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5777 104 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5737 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5817 104 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5899 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5817 103 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5931 103 +4.5 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5920 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5931 102 +4.4 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5995 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5984 103 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6038 103 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6071 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6093 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6093 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6150 102 +4.5 30 +14.8 rich 00000 6184 102 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6195 101 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6195 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000 6242 101 +4.8 30 +15.0 rich 00000 6277 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000 6289 101 +4.9 30 +14.8 rich 00000 6289 101 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000 6325 101 +4.7 30 +15.1 rich 00000 6361 101 +4.7 30 +15.4 rich 00000 6301 101 +4.5 30 +15.4 rich 00000 6397 101 +4.4 30 +15.4 rich 00000 6385 101 +4.5 30 +15.4 rich 00000 6447 101 +4.7 30 +15.6 rich 00000 6447 101 +4.8 30 +15.5 rich 00000 6397 100 +4.7 30 +15.8 rich 00000 6523 100 +4.7 30 +16.0 rich 00000 6523 101 +4.5 30 +16.0 rich 00000 6510 101 +4.4 30 +16.0 rich 00000 6485 101 +4.4 30 +16.0 rich 00000 6535 101 +4.5 30 +16.1 rich 00001 6613 095 +4.5 30 +16.1 rich 00001 6561 075 +4.2 30 +16.2 rich 00000 6858 084 +3.5 20 +16.1 rich 00000 6734 095 +3.8 20 +16.7 rich 00001 6265 104 +3.4 20 +15.7 rich 00000 5583 105 +4.0 30 +15.4 rich 00000 5175 104 +4.4 30 +15.1 rich 00000 5241 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5257 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5282 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5257 104 +4.7 30 +14.8 rich 00000 5307 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5274 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5341 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5324 104 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00001 5350 105 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5385 098 +4.5 30 +14.8 rich 00000 5402 097 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5402 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5437 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5402 100 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5455 098 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5446 097 +4.7 30 +15.0 rich 00001 5455 096 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5482 094 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5518 079 +4.5 30 +15.0 rich 00000 5411 000 +1.4 10 +17.0 rich 00000 5402 000 -5.3 10 ECU. rich 00000 5411 000 -8.1 10 ECU. rich 00000 5367 000 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000 5307 000 -9.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 5367 000 -10.1 00 ECU. rich 00000 5367 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5341 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5299 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5291 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5216 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5241 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5265 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5265 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5249 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5192 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5144 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5192 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5144 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 5073 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 5120 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5096 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 5050 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5058 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5050 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 5035 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 5012 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4952 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 5012 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4967 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4967 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4930 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4982 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4880 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4909 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 4880 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4901 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4901 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4894 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4830 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4852 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4852 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4837 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4830 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4796 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4789 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4748 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4796 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4755 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4789 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4728 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4741 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4755 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4721 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4708 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4688 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4668 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4701 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4662 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4655 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4616 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4629 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4642 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4553 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4559 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4578 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4610 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 4597 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 4182 011 -9.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 4235 016 -9.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4273 019 -8.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4278 018 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 4317 016 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 4257 009 -8.2 00 ECU. rich 00000 4230 007 -8.9 00 ECU. rich 00000 4214 012 -9.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4368 022 -9.2 00 ECU. rich 00000 4257 026 -7.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 4345 031 -5.9 00 ECU. rich 00000 4273 032 -5.2 00 ECU. rich 00000 4268 040 -4.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 4345 049 -4.0 00 ECU. rich 00000 4368 055 -3.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 4426 063 -2.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 4662 066 -1.9 00 ECU. rich 00000 4480 066 -1.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 4535 071 -1.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 4597 082 -0.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 Granted there's a few lines in the above with a few 2x count knock entries per line for 2 lines but, at this point I'm not sure if this is a cascading effect from the off boost knock. But that's one of the roughest knock runs that I could log, the rest might have 00001 or 2 knock counts barely but otherwise minimal knock when under boost. Hmmm. >_> In case your wondering about the boost, the aps kit (tt) wasn't making more than 4psi with the fully stock exhuast so we put an mbc on it to coax a max of about 6.7psi out of it on the UTEC MAP, any more and it didnt make any more power just knock so we dialed back. 350/370 was the power/tq, and for me that's more than enough provided I can clear up this damn knock. (I didnt tune it, the guy that did tuned my previous 350z to 500whp/tq on a utec version 2.3, so I'm not second guessing his ability by any means). When I first got the car back I also dont remember it hesitating under boost or anything, but damn being in the shift_probs club really reminds me how much I didn't miss it haha. __________________ 03 DB 350z Last edited by Juztin; 06-29-2008 at 11:48 AM.

06-30-2008, 07:04 AM	#3
gothchick LivingDeadGirl Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: ATL Posts: 3,297 iTrader: (12)	I'd get a wideband so I wouldn't have to guess what's going on with the tune. It's really hard to diagnose a log without AFRs... As a general rule, a 1-count knock is generally not consided real knock, as it can be mechanical noise, valve train, etc. But for me personally, I consider a string of 1-counts, or anything more than a 1-count to be real knock. The TXS Tuner Pro is pretty neat cause it comes with a head-phone jack so you can listen for knock much better. The TXS Tuner Reg is what I have, and it is great for logging etc, but doesn't have all the bells & whistles that the Pro has... This last log snippette looks pretty severe: 6747 102 +4.8 30 +16.2 rich 00000 6734 102 +5.0 30 +16.3 rich 00000 6747 010 +4.1 30 +17.0 rich 00000 6485 000 -3.8 10 ECU. rich 00000 6161 000 -7.5 10 ECU. rich 00000 6093 000 -8.6 10 ECU. rich 00000 5602 052 -9.1 00 ECU. rich 00000 4761 096 -2.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 4923 105 +1.6 10 +9.4 rich 00026 4930 104 +2.5 20 +7.5 rich 00026 4930 104 +3.3 20 +7.6 rich 00000 5065 105 +3.9 30 +15.5 rich 00000 This looks like a clear case of shift knock to me. This can generally be cleaned up by adding fuel to the 10% column in that rpm range. A 26 knock count is pretty damn severe. Like engine-damaging severe. If I were you, I would get this fixed asap before you start snapping/ folding rods, hammering rod bearings, or chipping piston ring lands. Even shift-knock can be detrimental to an engine. As for the first log with the string of 4-count and 6-count knocks... Since you don't have a wideband, I'd just add a little fuel and/or back off the timing a bit and see if that helps. If not, you probably have carbon build up or have internal damage. Edit: Maybe you could also try a step colder set of plugs. __________________ 2006 6MT GT Silverstone, Nismo floormats - Coming soon: Nismo license plate frame Last edited by gothchick; 06-30-2008 at 07:24 AM.

06-30-2008, 09:11 AM	#5
Juztin Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,706 iTrader: (7)	thanks for the feedback gothchick. I'm going to modify the 00 column in the tune as it looks like a lot of fuel was removed via the maf offsets and put fuel back and see if that clears up any of the off boost knock I'm seeing while in site '00'. I'll revisit the other load sites and add fuel reduce timing in those points as well to see if that clears up any shift knock. But at this point as well, I'll do a leakdown/comp test to see if that indicates any issues which at this point wouldn't be suprising. Thanks for your contrib athenG, i'll do that as well once I get a chance to. __________________ 03 DB 350z

06-30-2008, 12:22 PM	#8
Juztin Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,706 iTrader: (7)	will use logger 1, all the knock is happening under the 00 column (if you look at my earlier logs the knock are under the '00'). the map crossover is set to -2 vac. As for driving around, aint happening, those logs I took from when I was originally doing boost data logging and noticed the in-boost knock. That is not my concern currently, my concern is the off-boost and in ECU control knock that I am seeing. But long story short I aint doing any boost logs anytime soon for obvious reasons gothchick, adjusting anything but the 00 column at this point would be futile as those columns never come into play where I am seeing all that knock. If you look back at the logs you will see the rpms are less than 3k, and it's all under vacuum and not boost when am seeing the many knock events all registered under the '00' map/load point being used. Those are what I am most concerned with, I can get the in-boost knock addressed, but the off-boost where the ECU is controlling timing is where i'm really seeing the knock that I am talkinga bout in this thread. Hence why I am looking at adding fuel into the 00 clumn on the offset entries. My approach to this if I make any changes is to only add fuel and never take any away, and only retard/not advance timing. But of course I can wait with this till I get the car on a dyno with a tail sniffer before making any changes and doing any more logging so it will be much more beneifical to this thread. Thanks for the input guys 'n gals. __________________ 03 DB 350z

06-30-2008, 05:11 PM	#12
rcdash Master Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chapel Hill, NC Posts: 2,648 iTrader: (7)	Knock at vacuum isn't real knock. It just doesn't happen as cylinder pressures are too low to generate enough heat. Look for the stock ECU pulling timing to see where real knock is. __________________ ForgedPerformance Built: Arias, Eagle, JWT-700bb, GTM-5AT, Haltech, Carbonetics LSD, Tein Monoflex. Greddy evoTT, and StopTech BBK.

06-29-2008, 11:21 AM	#1
Juztin Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,706 iTrader: (7)	Interesting Knock Issue (and wheres scaling in utec 2.8d?) Okay, so a little info on this issue. I get my car back from aps tt install and of course promptly putting 1k miles on the setup on some cruises. I noticed some hesitation under WOT on some spots and of course my immediate thought is knock. After some datalogs I of course see some slight knock under boost that needs to be addressed no biggie, but for the hell of it I decided to do some leisurely data logging and noticed a hell of a lot of small knock counts when off boost and the ECU controlling. For example, this is some leisurely dirving staying below 3k rpms and with maybe 10-20% tps and no positive boost (knock count is last column): 2015 019 -4.7 00 ECU. rich 00001 2046 019 -4.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 2100 018 -4.8 00 ECU. rich 00001 2120 019 -5.0 00 ECU. rich 00001 2128 018 -5.2 00 ECU. rich 00001 2222 018 -5.3 00 ECU. rich 00002 2194 019 -5.4 00 ECU. rich 00001 2244 018 -5.6 00 ECU. rich 00001 2262 018 -5.7 00 ECU. rich 00001 2278 018 -5.8 00 ECU. rich 00001 2318 018 -5.9 00 ECU. rich 00002 2350 018 -6.0 00 ECU. rich 00002 2355 018 -6.1 00 ECU. rich 00002 2387 018 -6.1 00 ECU. rich 00002 2413 017 -6.2 00 ECU. rich 00002 2431 017 -6.2 00 ECU. rich 00005 2454 017 -6.6 00 ECU. rich 00005 2487 017 -6.9 00 ECU. rich 00005 2523 017 -7.0 00 ECU. rich 00004 2525 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00005 2564 017 -7.2 00 ECU. rich 00008 2579 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00003 2608 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00001 2618 017 -7.0 00 ECU. rich 00004 2645 017 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00002 2645 016 -7.1 00 ECU. rich 00001 2681 016 -7.3 00 ECU. rich 00002 2696 014 -7.7 00 ECU. rich 00003 2716 012 -7.9 00 ECU. rich 00001 2710 012 -8.6 00 ECU. rich 00002 2745 009 -8.9 00 ECU. rich 00002 2736 009 -9.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2723 004 -9.7 00 ECU. rich 00005 2743 001 -10.1 00 ECU. rich 00004 2705 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00003 2688 000 -10.9 00 ECU. rich 00003 2692 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00003 2730 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00002 2677 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00002 2653 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00001 2647 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2645 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00003 2594 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00005 2608 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00001 2577 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2564 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00006 2552 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00005 2538 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2491 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006 2480 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2483 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00004 2491 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006 2450 002 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00006 2445 002 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00002 Note my position is '00' so it's running off of ECU and this is of course reflected with the 'ECU' label for timing. When I depress the clutch: 1622 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 1634 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 1609 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 1559 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00001 1451 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00001 1351 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 1238 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 1131 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 1026 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0934 000 -11.2 00 ECU. rich 00000 0847 000 -11.0 00 ECU. rich 00000 0832 000 -10.9 00 ECU. rich 00000 0822 000 -10.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 0820 000 -10.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 0799 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 0777 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 0773 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0772 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0772 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0766 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0784 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0795 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0805 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0834 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0847 000 -10.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0862 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0864 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0891 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0895 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0909 000 -10.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0909 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 0914 000 -10.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 0900 000 -10.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 The knock count completely dissapears (anything < 1K knock stops). Hmmm... OK. So I'm thinking is there: 1) Bad Gas? 2.) Some other issue (injector scaling (no option for it in the utec v2.8d(c), mechanical false knock) I've tried a few different stations (shell, phillips 66, conoco) and still no resolution. So I'm thinking bad gas is possibly out the window. I do hear some kind of odd almost sounds like air, almost sounds like something mechnical buzzing that is somewhat porportionate to rpm. What is weird is free revving i'm seeing all this knock, but after 3k rpm it seems to also drop off. Ok....O_o So I went ahead and modified the UTEC to kick in control at -11 psi absolute. I immediately knew it was running in the 10% column as the car started running hella rich and was having trouble even getting to 3k rpms as it was running so bad with the fuel. I'm STILL seeing knock...... 2x o_O Here's a capture of that: 0738 006 -9.8 00 ECU. rich 00000 0772 009 -9.6 10 ECU. rich 00000 0902 012 -9.4 10 ECU. rich 00000 0975 012 -8.9 10 ECU. rich 00000 1143 011 -8.5 10 ECU. rich 00000 1307 011 -8.4 10 ECU. rich 00000 1480 011 -8.8 10 ECU. rich 00000 1598 011 -9.2 10 ECU. rich 00000 1755 011 -9.7 10 ECU. rich 00000 1843 011 -9.8 10 +25.4 rich 00000 1876 011 -9.9 10 +16.4 rich 00000 1895 011 -9.9 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1844 012 -9.8 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1809 014 -9.7 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1787 015 -9.2 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1794 015 -8.7 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1848 015 -8.4 10 +8.0 rich 00000 1931 014 -8.1 10 +6.3 rich 00001 1985 014 -8.1 10 -0.5 rich 00001 1972 014 -7.9 10 -0.5 rich 00000 1887 014 -7.6 10 -0.5 rich 00001 1787 014 -7.3 10 -0.5 rich 00001 1675 014 -7.3 10 +20.5 rich 00000 1573 015 -7.3 10 ECU. rich 00000 1728 018 -6.9 10 ECU. rich 00000 2006 018 -6.6 10 +12.7 rich 00000 2229 018 -6.4 10 +1.7 rich 00001 2181 004 -6.2 10 -0.5 rich 00002 2089 000 -7.7 10 -0.5 rich 00000 1973 000 -9.1 10 -0.5 rich 00001 1864 000 -9.8 10 -0.5 rich 00001 1757 000 -10.3 10 -0.5 rich 00000 1658 000 -10.7 10 ECU. rich 00000 1548 000 -11.0 10 ECU. rich 00000 1430 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 1315 000 -11.5 00 ECU. rich 00000 1205 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00001 1089 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00001 0993 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 0945 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 0898 000 -11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000 0873 000 -11.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 0856 000 -11.6 00 ECU. rich 00000 0835 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0832 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0825 000 -11.4 00 ECU. rich 00000 0822 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 0803 000 -11.3 00 ECU. rich 00000 So from the above we see that now I'm logging map point '10' for the column I want to be in. So I know the UTEC is in control and yet even with running super rich I'm still getting some knock and of course the utec is retarding. EDIT: But now that I look at it after posting, the knock did seem to drop off quite a bit when the UTEC controls and dumps fuel compared to the ECU controlling. What is odd with all this is the knock seems to really happen from like 1k to 3k distincitvely. After 3k it really drops off and I dont see much knock after 3k (maybe an event here or there sporadicaly) but no where near the frequency off UTEC control. If you wondering, no i dont have a WB (yes I know, that will be addressed sooner or later) but right now I'm pretty positive it would be reading rich with the sheer amount of fumes being dumped out the back (i'm also on stock exhaust with stock cats so that gas is going through quite a few filters and yet still makes the environmental air pretty flammable). One of the most obvious things is am I hearing knock? Kind of a hard quesiton to answer as when free-revving no I dont hear any. But that weird sound I'm hearing (mix between air hissing and buzzing) I can sometimes hear audibly from within the cab driving and I've heard knock before and this doesn't quite sound like it. So from there, sorry for this extremely long post guys 'n gals but any suggestions on what to look at would be great but one of the reasons for this post was: What happened to the injector scaling in UTEC v2.8? On mine v2.8d(c) under open loop fueling (or any of the other params) there is no injector scaling options anymore. Instead of the original options you got in 2.3 it just says "for future use" in those two lines where it used to be. I tried searching, but didn't really hit any results on here, and the user guide still has it as options even thought it's no longer there. Their docs need some TLC. Thanks for any possible insite into wth happened to injector scaling, or any other suggestions. The unknowns for me currently are: 1.) possible injector crapping out causing one cyl to knock possibly from maybe lean 2.) injector scaling? (what happened, where'd it go with 2.8 or maybe i'm missing some obvious RTFM entry saying what happened to it) 3.) false knock due to some mechanical possiblity 4.) astronomical odds that its bad gas, if it is i'm heading to buy a powerball ticket bitches! 5.) Possible bad ground on the UTEC 6.) God hates me, so I should take a shot and drive into the sunset till it blows __________________ 03 DB 350z Last edited by Juztin; 06-29-2008 at 11:44 AM.

06-30-2008, 09:09 AM	#4
athenG Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,606 iTrader: (2)	First post your Knock Setting so we can see if it is setup to high. Second please use logger 1 since that contains more information when logging. We need to see what the Stock ECU ignition is doing. 3rd not sure if you have a wideband (it will be foolish to tune without it), if you do then use UTI or MPS to do you logging so we can also see your A/F.

06-30-2008, 09:18 AM	#6
athenG Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,606 iTrader: (2)	how do you know if it is the A/F that is causing the knock on the 0 column? What is your crossover point? To many variables here that you are missing... I used to have problem with knock at ECU control and adding more fuel didn't fix it. I had problem with knock around 2500-3000rpm so I had to to adjust my Open Loop crossover to -1 instead of 0 psi and that fix the problem. Sometimes there is a delay between the transition from ECU to Utec. Like I said it will be FOOLISH to attempt to tune without a wideband. Scaling the 0 column sometimes wont fix it because the ECU is still controlling the Timing and that could be the culprit. Please use logger 1 again coz your log is incomplete for us to make an assumption.

06-30-2008, 01:10 PM	#9
athenG Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,606 iTrader: (2)	What is your min/max Map value and what RPM does Utec take over? please post your Knock Settings so we can at least see if it is to high. Like I said before we need to see what the stock ECU ignition is trying to do.

06-30-2008, 06:06 PM	#15
athenG Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,606 iTrader: (2)	that is your first problem, your knock setting is to high. Try 100 at 1000-2000rpm and 95 at 2000-3000rpm, 75-80 at 3000-4000rpm, 70-75 at 4000-5000rpm and 65 at 5000-6000rpm. Your stock ECU isn't pulling timing so I doubt it is true knock. -2 is your Map min value, what is your map/psi crossover for your Open Loop fueling? try -3, my map min value is 1 and I had to set the open loop crossover to -1 to eliminate my ECU knock problem (I had 0 before). Last edited by athenG; 06-30-2008 at 06:16 PM.