None of this 300+ hp stuff makes any sense. The "insurance" argument seems completely bogus; car manufacturers don't make any marketing hay of how cheap insurance is for their cars, what they publicize and what magazines print are the specs. If Nissan could say 305hp instead of 287, would they lose sleep over the fact that after people already pay for their cars they get hit with a higher permium? That is ridiculous.

The Japanese agreement/regulation/whatever reason doesn't seem to hold water either: wasn't the 300ZX rated at 300hp? Wasnt the Supra rated at 320hp? The NSX at 290hp?

The other facts, on the other hand, fit together perfectly: the reported dyno figure of 244 hp with a 15% drivetrain loss equates to exactly 287 fwhp (that's "flywheel horsepower"). That sounds about right from what I have heard from other cars.

Putting this info together, it seems clear that 287 is a lot close to the truth than 305.

Then again, I could be totally wrong.

 

I first heard the term "gentleman's agreement" in the early 80s. Japan, like the US, was trying to get car makers to build more fuel efficient cars. As the price of oil went down, the public(US,Japan, etal) began to pressure car makers to build faster and more fun-oriented cars. The Japanese, I read, still wanted to limit cars to a hp figure of 280 to encourage their car buyers to still buy more fuel efficient cars(and small cars to ease their horrendus traffic problems) so they made a deal, the gov't and Japanese car makers to the 280 hp limit, officially. When more and more Japanese car makers began to get into a hp race with each other the gov't was still adhering to the 280 limit. Whether it was scrapped finally, I have no idea; law, regulation, guideline, etc. may exist or not, but that is where I heard about the peak hp agreement.

Boomer

 

I doubt many companies actually adhere to the gentlemen's rule.

Also, 287 ps equates to about 280 hp. Remember, Japan uses PS, NOT Horsepower.

 

305 sounds a little much, I have some great sources at Honda and the S2000 actually puts out 247, but they only claim 240 (unlike some car companies, the respectful ones would rather be safe a claim a little low, VS claim high and get sued later IE-Ford).

in reality the performance #'s are the bottom line, after all what good is a 400 HP car that will only do a 15 sec 1/4???

 

cat, that was pretty funny "why would anyone tell you that they underrated the #'s"......"sounds like someone has LS1 envy, Chevy has been underating them for years...." (in other words you are contridicting yourself a bit).

 

Demographics is right, but I'm sure the power of a car also is factored in some what. I do agree that it is mostly demographics.

 

not true AFAIK- when I bought my TT - because it was the 225 it was classified as a different performance class than the 180 and was MUCH more expensive to insure (700/year more ALMOST DOUBLE) Ask anyone who insures a bike - as GSXR vs. a katana for instance. I had ins. ppl quoting me 0-60 times when shopping for bike ins. for crying out loud...

And the C5 vette is only slightly more powerful than the camaro? Ok. and the Z06 is a corp. twin of the firebird right?

 

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

It doesn't make 305 hp. It makes 287. It's advertised at 287 because Infiniti inflated the Q45's numbers and got caught doing so. That's why its not inflated.

Most of you internet jockeyes will say I don't know what I'm talking about though. So please, hit me with the onslaught!

 

They wouldn't lose sleep because premiums were higher, but higher premiums might keep them from hitting their target market.....say if they wanted younger buyers that already pay higher premiums based on age....why not rate it at a lower number to drop the premiums and leave yourself open to a larger market of potential buyers.


that being said......I think the 305hp mess is bunk. The 287hp number links fine with the 244 rwhp and I have to agree. I think the car is 287 although I would love to have 305 or more.

 

I agree with the above, insurance costs do eventually affect the manufacturer. I remeber reading that the reason pontiac stopped production of an older 2-seater (can't think of the name now) was due to the high insurance premiums, so no one was buying the car.

 

You decide which you want to believe.

You can either have a 305 bhp car with a 20% drivetrain loss or a 287 bhp car with 15% drivetrain loss. Hell, you could say you ahve a 490 bhp car with a 50% drivetrain loss if it makes you feel better!

Zack

 

The horsepower is not going to make a big difference on the insurance side. The cost of the car and whether it is high performance, make a difference. The performance is already listed as high, so extra HP would not hurt. This is dealer B.S.

 

You got that backwards. Yes, Japan does use PS. But since Nissan Japan's spec for the Z has it at 280 PS, that would equal roughly 275 HP (US). So, they are, adhereing to the agreement by underrating the car's spec a bit.

But this argument about whether the car has 305 or 287 HP can't be resolved until someone actually takes a measurement at the crank; it's silly to argue whether car car has a 15 or 20% drivetrain loss without hard numbers.

 

Not wishing to show my abysmal ignorance, what the hell is PS?

Boomer

 

You hit the nail on the head with this one! Here we are arguing about some theoretical number when we already know by measurement the only number that matters: power at the wheels. The only thing the crankshaft number is good for is bragging rights (of course, that might be more important than some of us would like to admit! )

 

I should be going out to Buttonwillow raceway on Sept 20th. They said they will be offering dyno pulls for $30. I'll probably take them up on it.

I also want to run at a 1/4 mile strip just to see what I can get. I'll have to look and see when the next California Speedway street legal day it.

My MR2 Spyder was had it's best 1/4 mile in R&T (I think it was R&T) and it was 15.8 sec. Now that is with a full tank and all tools/spare and 50lbs of test equipment. I ran the car at Pomona and I am not even a drag racer, but I ran nearly a second faster (no spare/tools 1/8th tank). Now, there is an art to best E.T. like knowing how to shallow stage. You would actually deep stage if you were racing someone, but when you are running strictly for time you give the car a good foot of acceleration before the beam breaks and the clock starts ticking by shallow staging.

 

PS?????

Being a mechanical engineer, I am pretty sure that the most common measure of power for automobliles are HP and kW (that's HORSEPOWER and KILOWATT).

What the hell is "PS" and how do you get the conversion that 275hp = 280PS?????

Hello, Are we "inventing" something here?