How does BMW pull it off? Both cars run about the same times. Is the M3 that much lighter?

 

Weight and gearing...

 

BMWs horses just seem to work harder than other manufacturers - perhaps they underrate. I've never understood how a 184hp 325 can rush to 60 in 7 seconds and change....maybe BMW just has less driveline loss? Either way I'd credit good engineering.

NzZ

 

What is the gearing in the E36 M3 compared to the Z?

 

How does a huge heavy BMW 530i with 225HP get to 60 in 6.7 sec with an auto? Who knows. Bimmer knows something.

 

its ALLL weight the super light e36's ....

 

E36 M3s are only about 100 lbs lighter. When you say both cars run about the same times, whose numbers are you getting that from? From what I know E36 M3s are about 1/2 sec slower to 60 than the Z.

 

The US E36 M3s were geared for acceleration to make up for the lower power relative to the Euro versions (240hp vs 320hp). 0-60 was in the mid 5's for the US models with the 3.2 liter engine (1996-1999). I had a 1999 coupe.

 

Yeah my friends M3 and I run all the time for kicks, and when I was stock and he was, I was BEARLY beating him. At times he would get a good launch and beat me a few times.

As someone stated above, BMW knows what their doing, they make some amazing cars.

 

Two words would be German engineering

 

The M3 can't be that much light to make a 47 HP difference. I know it has alot to do with German Engineering but can someone be more specific? 47 HP is alot.

 

I think most of it is gearing and possibly having a better power band. It may have 47 hp less but it might make close to the same amount of average power that the Z makes. Plus, I think BMWs rating are closer to wheel HP than flywheel HP, but from what I've heard you can't dyno a newer BMW so who knows...

 

They are not just as fast. Take your Z to any road course and mop them up. On track in my street car w/ street tires, I run the same times or better than most track prepped E36 M3s running r-compounds, full race suspensions, and driven by instructors. I have also not met an E46 that I couldn't pass either. In my experience, at 80+ the E46 doesn't have anything over the Z. Magazines = nothing... Both are great cars, but the Z is very impressive on road courses.

 

I agree with Rob. There are very few M3s I can't pass, and those were only driven by very skilled drivers with R-compounds. E46 M3s will walk away from the Z on a straight, but since it's heavier, the Z will eat up the E46 M3 in the turns.

 

That's my answer too. BMW breeds strong, big bavarian horses while the Japanese breed these little tiny shetland ponies designed for the crowded cities of Japan.

Actually, honestly, as a visitor to the Nissan world from the BMW world, I've always felt that the Japanese manufacturers were a little bit optimistic on power claims relative to the Germans. A Japanese car with similar power to weight ratio to a German car will practically always be slower (exceptions being the cases where the Japanese underrate engines to 276hp to meet their agreements). I think the reasons are more rigorous HP rating by the germans and more efficient drivetrains.

John and Rob - I'm surprised about what you guys are saying about the M3s. I think you both need to do some more BMWCCA track events. The E36 M3 is a pretty good match to the Z and most of the ones that you see on tracks are much better developed than pretty much all of the Zs out there. I see plenty of E36 M3 that I just can't catch no matter what I do and I garantee you that I'm running substantially faster lap times than you guys (no offense, but I've been doing this for longer). Just check some lap times from BMWCCA club races at tracks that you guys drive. Garantee you some E36 M3s will be more than 10 seconds faster than you guys (in race traffic).

Also, Rob, the E46 M3 will destroy a Z down the straights. I'll admit that I can usually get around the corners a touch faster than them if they are close to stock (but with Hoosiers- everyone has them in the instructor groups) but they more than make up for it down the straights.

To recap: yes, I pass a lot of M3s in the instructor run group. But I get passed by some too, and I run lap times that would put me in the bottom half in BMWCCA club racing. That means that there are plenty of M3s (E46, E36 and E30) as well as non-M cars that when properly developed (some still streetable) will really rip around a road course much faster than any Zs I have seen (even guys like BJ and the Performance Zs in GAC would get passed by a bunch of the M cars in BMWCCA club racing).

Jason

 

I haven't run with BMWCCA, and I don't plan on comparing my times to club races since I don't have a race car, but rather a street car that I have to drive home. I never said I destroy M3s, but I think the Z has a better chassis and a little more power to boot. That being said, there was a maniac in a white E36 M3 when we were at Mid-Ohio that passed pretty much everyone, but he was also a much better driver on a home track. Now, if we're going to discuss the latest M Coupes, well, the Z gets walked.

 

I had a 98 M3......and I'd say performance is comparable. The BMW is more refined and quiet. I miss that car......

Don't get me wrong, I love me Z now, and it's damn SE"Z"Y.

 

Sure, but these race cars are really street cars with mods (and admittedly a lot of them manage to throw out a couple hundred pounds of weight).

Overall, I don't really disagree with you but I think the E36 M3 is pretty close to the Z in stock form and has much, *MUCH* better aftermarket racing support and knowledge. There have been thousands of M3s of various generations raced and the knowledge and parts out there to make these cars fast blow away the Z. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to make your E36 M3 5 seconds faster at the track by calling up Turner Motorsports or TC Kline or AC Schnitzer or BMP or any of these guys (with real racing experience) than doing it for the Z. We pretty much have BJ and the Performance guys but a lot of what they do is still cosmetic junk and the knowledge base just isn't there yet. So as a result I see a lot of daily driver M3s that are much faster than any daily driver Zs.

 

In other words, bend over to any bimmers I learned that lesson..esp here in Seattle, major attitudes

 

on the track E36 or E46 with a decent driver will destroy a z. Sorry, but its true. Especially the E46, it is an altogether different beast. Whatever the Germans are doing, their obviously doing it better than the Japenese.